The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

AeroFranz said:
fight electrons with electrons. I'm talking EW and anything that has to do with manipulating waveforms. Eventually, active cancellation/spoofing/network infiltration. Yes, it's crazy, but so was the concept of Stealth in the seventies. And guess what, the US is better than anyone at this game!
Your limitations in terms of installed power and aperture size can be overcome by increased stadoff range, this way you let physics and the radar range equation work in your favor. Nothing wrong with standoff, after all isn't that the natural progression of warfare? You start with sticks, then axes, bows, longbows, guns, artillery, and then you end up with ICBMs. Ok, getting off the soap box now.

But the US has done this already. We could jam before "we were invisible." The progression was never Stealth aircraft, then EW. What is the A-6B, EA-6B, EF-111, F-105G, EA-18G, and dozens of variants of C-135s?? Jammers and jamming along with wild weasel/SEAD (a wonderfully dangerous mission) had been done. Done to death. By the end of Vietnam an entire quarter of missions had to do with jamming and SAM suppression, one of the reasons behind the creation of a stealth aircraft. The US has played that game, and they can do it, and still do with snazzy stuff like targeting decoys now, but don't seem to prefer it. Make of that what you will. Whole fleets of Jamming/SEAD/EW aircraft have been retired since the intro of stealth. Even then we are STILL good at it:

The F-35 radar was validated in a tactically relevant environment. Until proven otherwise, America still has the most capable EW and, to use an older phrase, ECCM (electronic counter-countermeasures) fighting force in the world. So being tactically “validated” in an American-designed exercise is the gold standard.

http://www.ndu.edu/press/the-f-35.html
LowObservable said:
"Jesus, I don't know, they're all boxed up out in the shed."

Are you sure the dog didn't eat them?

AFAIK the term originated in Russia with reference to the Sukhoi Berkut and MiG 1.42/1.44. It can be found in a couple of RAND reports in the late 1990s.

One of the first Western media references is here, early 2002:

http://web02.aviationweek.com/shownews/02asia1/topsto08.htm

One of LockMart's first references is here, in 2004:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2004/december/LOCKHEEDMARTINNAMESNEWEXECUTIVEVICE.html

Interestingly, it says: "As the world’s only fifth-generation fighter, the F/A-22 Raptor is, and will remain, unprecedented in its total integration of stealth and advanced avionics."

Only in late 2005 does the company include the F-35:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2005/october/LOCKHEEDMARTINF35FIFTHGENERATIONCAP.html

An interesting example of mythmaking...

Back from having a life I see! Care to respond to any of GTXs posts since you have enough free time to argue semantics now? Or can we take your silence as agreement?
 
Or can we take your silence as agreement?

Nope. Anyway, I had the fifth-gen origin stuff around from another project - it's an interesting example of the dishonesty that pervades much of the JSF camp.
 
LowObservable said:
Or can we take your silence as agreement?

Nope. Anyway, I had the fifth-gen origin stuff around from another project - it's an interesting example of the dishonesty that pervades much of the JSF camp.

So are you claiming that the F-35 isn't fifth generation? Or just trying to wow us with your fantastic wordplay?
 
No. I'm stating as fact that the whole "fifth-generation" notion is a Russian concept that has been used as a marketing slogan by LockMart, means about as much as "ba ba ba ba I'm lovin' it" and has been swallowed whole by people who ought to know better.
 
sferrin said:
Now if an all-aspect stealth aircraft isn't going to cut it in 2020 how do you figure a non-stealth aircraft will?
The SR-71 route; flying so high and fast basically nothing can touch it; or if it can, you just turn to the right slightly and accelerate somewhat.
 
TT, yes, the US has done EW to death. But new aspects of it keep emerging, I'm saying let's exploit those that give us an asymmetric advantage. Stealth used to be just that, and still is to a certain extent. But after a while OPFOR catches up if you rely heavily on a one-trick pony.
 
But 'stealth', if used properly cannot be classified as a "one trick pony".
The notion of true stealth is that many elements will come together to achieve your goal, with the signature of the platform being just one of those elements.
 
yes, i should have used the term reduced RCS to specify which specific observable i was talking about.
 
RyanCrierie said:
The SR-71 route; flying so high and fast basically nothing can touch it; or if it can, you just turn to the right slightly and accelerate somewhat.


Ah, so here be your fighters then:


images.jpg
images-1.jpg


BTW, I assume we will be talking about hypersonic fighters with top speeds in the vicinity of Mach 3 - 5. I say this since to be sure to avoid the missiles likely to be used against such a high visibility (IR if nothing else) target. Now this will all be ultra cool (poor choice of descriptor there, since they won't be cool in actual temperatures though - basic physics folks) maybe, but if you think the F-35 is expensive, watch out! For the world's airforces to start equipping with fleets of hypersonic fighters it will be extraordinarily expensive and I would argue, potentially far more restrictive! For one, it is already generally accepted that for a manned aircraft, sustained hypersonic performance and tight manoeuvrability are mutually exclusive...at least with today's physics.

Of course, whilst possible and quite likely to be outstanding performers, if suddenly the Western Air arms started planning on fleets of hypersonic aircraft (fighters or otherwise), wouldn't their supposed enemies develop countermeasures, be it their own aircraft or missiles (or even lasers), or does that only apply to LO technologies since we all know the Russians, Chinese etc are useless in the materials, airframe and engines field...
 
LowObservable said:
No. I'm stating as fact that the whole "fifth-generation" notion is a Russian concept that has been used as a marketing slogan by LockMart, means about as much as "ba ba ba ba I'm lovin' it" and has been swallowed whole by people who ought to know better.

This whole generation thing is a red herring. Now address the point. If an all-aspect stealth aircraft is going to come up short by 2020 how can you justify replacing it with a 4th gen aircraft? I swear it's like trying to get Obama to discuss the economy.
 
RyanCrierie said:
sferrin said:
Now if an all-aspect stealth aircraft isn't going to cut it in 2020 how do you figure a non-stealth aircraft will?
The SR-71 route; flying so high and fast basically nothing can touch it; or if it can, you just turn to the right slightly and accelerate somewhat.

Yeah, tell me how trying to CAP with an F-12B would have worked.
 
GTX said:
RyanCrierie said:
The SR-71 route; flying so high and fast basically nothing can touch it; or if it can, you just turn to the right slightly and accelerate somewhat.


Ah, so here be your fighters then:
images.jpg
images-1.jpg

BTW, I assume we will be talking about hypersonic fighters with top speeds in the vicinity of Mach 3 - 5. I say this since to be sure to avoid the missiles likely to be used against such a high visibility (IR if nothing else) target. Now this will all be ultra cool (poor choice of descriptor there, since they won't be cool in actual temperatures though - basic physics folks) maybe, but if you think the F-35 is expensive, watch out! For the world's airforces to start equipping with fleets of hypersonic fighters it will be extraordinarily expensive and I would argue, potentially far more restrictive! For one, it is already generally accepted that for a manned aircraft, sustained hypersonic performance and tight manoeuvrability are mutually exclusive...at least with today's physics.

Of course, whilst possible and quite likely to be outstanding performers, if suddenly the Western Air arms started planning on fleets of hypersonic aircraft (fighters or otherwise), wouldn't their supposed enemies develop countermeasures, be it their own aircraft or missiles (or even lasers), or does that only apply to LO technologies since we all know the Russians, Chinese etc are useless in the materials, airframe and engines field...

I'll bet that Lockheed Mach 5 methane powered bird there on the left would be cheaper than an F-35. ;) Especially after they modify it for STOVL for the Marines. ;D
 
This whole generation thing is a red herring.

I'm glad you accept that. It's a good start. As for the rest, I think I answered it in part some posts back. But basically there is no single threat, and no single system will do everything. Look at what the CNO wrote in Proceedings.

Not every target needs to be hit by a JDAM dropped from a fighter.
 
AeroFranz said:
TT, yes, the US has done EW to death. But new aspects of it keep emerging, I'm saying let's exploit those that give us an asymmetric advantage. Stealth used to be just that, and still is to a certain extent. But after a while OPFOR catches up if you rely heavily on a one-trick pony.

Doesn't hurt that the F-35 has extremely good EW and excellent upgrade potential right? The F-35 just like any fighter will go through upgrades. Its not going to peak in 2017. Every American fighter gets upgraded. Let me put this in pessimistic terms: LM and the giant military-industrial complex won't miss out on a chance to upgrade and make more money. Make more sense now?


The F-35 joint strike fighter is often defined by its stealth characteristics, and the debate revolves around whether one needs “a high-end aircraft” or, if one is pessimistic, whether “stealth is really stealthy.” Although interesting, such discussions miss the point. Stealth is an enabler for this aircraft, not its central definition. As a Marine F-18 pilot put it:

I would say low observability is a capability set or is an asset to the platform, but the platform as a whole brings a lot by itself. There are situations where low observability will be very important to the mission set that you’re operating in. And then there will be situations where the ISR package or the imaging package that comes with that aircraft, the ability to see things, will be more important; that will change based on the mission set and how you define the mission.6

Moreover, one of the challenges facing the F-35 is that it is often described using historical aviation words, generally obscuring the technological advance of stealth itself. As Lieutenant General David Deptula, USAF (Ret.), constantly reminded his Service and others, the “F” before the F-22 and the F-35 is somewhat of a misnomer. There are significant generational changes in the way individual combat aircraft and fleets of aircraft handle data and can make decisions.7

Stealth on this aircraft is a function of the manufacturing process; it is not hand built into the aircraft and maintained as such. It is a characteristic of high-tolerance manufacturing, and as such, stealth will be maintained in the field, not in the factory or depot. This is revolutionary in character.

At the heart of the F-35 is a new comprehensive combat systems enterprise.8 The F-35 is the first combat aircraft that sees completely around itself. The Electro Optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS) makes this happen, and it allows the operator or the fleet managers to see hundreds of miles away on a 360-degree basis. The combat system enterprise allows the aircraft to manage the battlespace within this seamless 360-degree space. Unlike legacy aircraft, which add systems that have to be managed by the pilot, the F-35 creates a synergy ­workspace where the core combat systems work interactively to create functional outcomes; for example, jamming can be performed by the overall systems, not just by a dedicated electronic warfare system.

The F-35 is a flying combat system integrator and in a different historical epoch than the F-15s, F-18s, and F-16s. The 360-degree capability, coupled with the combat system enterprise, explains these historic differences on a per plane basis. The ability of the new aircraft to shape distributed air operations collectively is another historic change that the United States and its allies need to make, especially with the growing missile, air defense, and offensive air capabilities in the global market space and battlespace. The legacy combat aircraft have added new combat subsystems over a 30-year period. These evolved aircraft and their new subsystems are additive, iterative, and sequential. The resulting configurations are built over the core foundational aircraft. All of the legacy U.S. aircraft with the latest modifications, when offered for foreign sale, were rejected in India’s fighter competition for the much newer European fighters, the Eurofighter and Rafale.

The F-35 was built with a foundation that allows interactivity across the combat systems, permitting the forging of a combat system enterprise managed by the computer on the aircraft. Said another way, F-35 core combat systems are interactive with one another, creating a synergistic outcome and capability rather than providing an additive-segmented tool. The aircraft’s systems are built on a physical link, namely, a high-speed data bus built on high-speed fiber optical systems. To provide a rough comparison, legacy aircraft are communicating over a dial-up modem compared to the F-35 system, which is equivalent to a high-speed broadband system. The new data bus and high-speed broadband are the facilitators of this fully integrated data-sharing environment on the aircraft. While legacy aircraft have had similar subsystems, integration was far less mature.

Connected to the other combat systems via the high-speed data bus is the CNI system (communications, navigation, and ­identification). This is a flexible radio frequency system that enables the aircraft to operate against a variety of threats. The other core combat systems, which interact to create the combat systems enterprise, are the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, DAS, Electrical Optical Targeting System (EOTS), and electronic warfare (EW) system. As Pete Bartos, a former Strike Eagle Pilot now with Northrop Grumman, put it:

When this plane was designed, the avionics suite from the ground up, the designers looked at the different elements that can be mutually supporting as one of the integration tenets. For example, the radar didn’t have to do everything; the Electrical Optical Targeting System didn’t have to do everything. And they were designed together.

Fusion is the way to leverage the other sensors’ strengths. To make up for any weaknesses, perhaps in the field of regard or a certain mode, a certain spectrum, with each of the sensor building blocks, they were all designed to be multifunction avionics.

For example, the AESA is an MFA—a multifunction array. It has, of course, the standard air-to-air modes, the standard air-to-ground modes. But in addition, it’s really built from the ground up to be an EW aperture for electronic protection, electronic support, which is sensing, passive ops, and electronic attack.9

A way to look at the cross-functionality of the combat systems is to think past the narrow focus of additive systems. A system is added to do a task. The pilot needs to use that system to manage the task. With the F-35 interactive systems, the pilot will perform a function without caring which system is actually executing the mission. For example, for electronic warfare, including cyber, he could be using the EOTS, EW system, or AESA radar. The pilot really does not care, and the interactivity among the systems creates a future evolution whereby synergy among the systems creates new options and possibilities. Furthermore, the system rests on an upgradable computer with chip replacement, allowing generational leaps in computational power.

The F-35 provides a flexible architecture similar to a smart phone. With the F-35, we define a synergy space to draw on the menu of applications. And the F-35 combat systems are built to permit open-ended growing capability. In mathematical analogies, we are describing something that can create battlespace “fractals,” notably with a joint force able to execute distributed operations. The aircraft is a facilitator of a more robust combat environment than was available with legacy aircraft and command and control. This change requires pilots to rethink how to operate. F-35 performance and its pilot allow a revolution along the information axis of combat, or what might be identified as the “z-axis.”

http://www.ndu.edu/press/the-f-35.html



sferrin said:
GTX said:
RyanCrierie said:
The SR-71 route; flying so high and fast basically nothing can touch it; or if it can, you just turn to the right slightly and accelerate somewhat.


Ah, so here be your fighters then:
images.jpg
images-1.jpg

BTW, I assume we will be talking about hypersonic fighters with top speeds in the vicinity of Mach 3 - 5. I say this since to be sure to avoid the missiles likely to be used against such a high visibility (IR if nothing else) target. Now this will all be ultra cool (poor choice of descriptor there, since they won't be cool in actual temperatures though - basic physics folks) maybe, but if you think the F-35 is expensive, watch out! For the world's airforces to start equipping with fleets of hypersonic fighters it will be extraordinarily expensive and I would argue, potentially far more restrictive! For one, it is already generally accepted that for a manned aircraft, sustained hypersonic performance and tight manoeuvrability are mutually exclusive...at least with today's physics.

Of course, whilst possible and quite likely to be outstanding performers, if suddenly the Western Air arms started planning on fleets of hypersonic aircraft (fighters or otherwise), wouldn't their supposed enemies develop countermeasures, be it their own aircraft or missiles (or even lasers), or does that only apply to LO technologies since we all know the Russians, Chinese etc are useless in the materials, airframe and engines field...

I'll bet that Lockheed Mach 5 methane powered bird there on the left would be cheaper than an F-35. ;) Especially after they modify it for STOVL for the Marines. ;D

Dont forget it has to be hyper-maneuverable and gun equipped too.

LowObservable said:
This whole generation thing is a red herring.

I'm glad you accept that. It's a good start. As for the rest, I think I answered it in part some posts back. But basically there is no single threat, and no single system will do everything. Look at what the CNO wrote in Proceedings.

Not every target needs to be hit by a JDAM dropped from a fighter.

This is some kind of revolutionary thinking? That other weapons and systems can be used as well? That maybe the best weapon for COIN is a Marine and his Rifle and not a Minuteman III?
 
TT - Cut the hyperbole. It adds to the noise level and nothing else.

Sferrin - The problem is that as long as you use the "generation" marketing gimmick, you're begging the question - that is, taking as fact what is yet to be proved.

For instance, there are a lot of fighter missions, now and in the 2020s, that a Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet, Gripen NG or J-10 will do as well as or better than the F-35, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

There are other missions (such as air combat) where it remains to be proven that an F-35's stealth will (in the real world of RoEs and against the likely countering threat developments) overcome its generally lackluster performance and limited weapon flexibility.

Finally, there are missions where stealth is a definite advantage - but can those be performed by UAVs? After all, a lot of Anglo-French stealth combat UAVs (literally speaking) were used in Libya last year. They were just the kind of UAVs that don't come back.

So, yes, there are lots of ways to structure a combat air force around aircraft other than the F-35.
 
LowObservable said:
TT - Cut the hyperbole. It adds to the noise level and nothing else.

Sferrin - The problem is that as long as you use the "generation" marketing gimmick, you're begging the question - that is, taking as fact what is yet to be proved.

For the most part (at least as I've seen it use OUTSIDE marketing material) the generations concept is for describing typical characteristics, and time frame, rather than capability. And no, the "dog didn't eat my homework". Frankly it's not that important to me. If I happen to stumble upon it down the road you can be sure I'll bring it to your attention though. (It was likely a Bill Gunston book.)



For instance, there are a lot of fighter missions, now and in the 2020s, that a Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet, Gripen NG or J-10 will do as well as or better than the F-35, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

LowObservable said:
There are other missions (such as air combat) where it remains to be proven that an F-35's stealth will (in the real world of RoEs and against the likely countering threat developments) overcome its generally lackluster performance and limited weapon flexibility.

Where do you get "generally lackluster performance" from? Certainly the pilots don't agree with that observation.



LowObservable said:
Finally, there are missions where stealth is a definite advantage - but can those be performed by UAVs? After all, a lot of Anglo-French stealth combat UAVs (literally speaking) were used in Libya last year. They were just the kind of UAVs that don't come back.

When you find one that can do CAP and CAS let me know.


LowObservable said:
So, yes, there are lots of ways to structure a combat air force around aircraft other than the F-35.

Sure, with an infinite budget. [/quote][/quote][/quote]
 
Certainly the pilots don't agree with that observation.

They can say what they want (or indeed what they are told to say) but I'll go with the threshold KPPs, other published data and fairly obvious first-order analysis of the aerodynamics. Yes, I'm sure it accelerates quickly below Mach 1, on the big engine/little wing theory.

When you find [a UAV] that can do CAP and CAS let me know.

When you find a reason that stealth is useful for CAS, let me know. As for CAP, give me networked sensors, wide-angle radar, lots of MRAAMs and LRAAMs, plus agility, acceleration and SRAAMs for the leakers and the ability to carry big tanks for endurance... and if I can have VLO for the same price, cool.

Sure, with an infinite budget.

The only infinite budget arguments around here are from those who say that the F-35B is worth 80 per cent as much as an F-22.
 
LOL and I'm guilty of Hyperbole!! ::)

LowObservable said:
They can say what they want (or indeed what they are told to say)

Its very important to slander those with first hand knowledge, especially when they say something positive. They have more credibility than you after all, so they must be brought down to level the playing field for the bloggers.

just to review:

Submariner CNO implies stealth isnt all its cracked up to be, (before recanting)-- Truth and words to live by
Military Test Aviator says positive things about stealth/F-35-- lying, well paid, Uncle Tom, Plays Santa Claus at all the LM Christmas parties.

When you find a reason that stealth is useful for CAS, let me know.

Other than survivability?

[/i]The only infinite budget arguments around here are from those who say that the F-35B is worth 80 per cent as much as an F-22.

The F-35B Can take off and land almost anywhere, has more advanced sensors, and does more missions better than the F-22. So yeah. Plus its going to go down in price as more units are produced.


Cost of 'Growler' jets blows out to $1.7b

The cost to the taxpayer of converting 12 RAAF Super Hornets into $250 million electronic warfare warriors, or ''Growlers'', has increased almost six fold from $300 million to $1.7 billion.

By the time they are expected to come on line around the end of the decade, the planes' jamming pods will be close to their use-by date.

Even Carlo had something to say!
Carlo Kopp, of Air Power Australia, disagrees: ''There are some major survivability problems with the Growler,'' he said.


Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/cost-of-growler-jets-blows-out-to-17b-20120806-23qjl.html#ixzz23jPNMSvS


For those still beating the "Just Upgrade old aircraft/EW" drum.


Meanwhile, GTXs posts remain un-countered LO...
 
CAS, by definition, is performed CLOSE to the threat. The radar range equation works against you in that case. It doesn't matter if you have the RCS of a marble, if you are painted from less than, say, 5 miles away, you will be hit with enough energy to get a decent ping back.
In that case survivability should be a balance of vulnerability and susceptibility (F-35, we can agree, definitely leans towards susceptibility reduction at the cost of vulnerability).


As far as the monster methane beasts are concerned, you correctly pointed out that there is no way a large fleet could be affordable. A small fleet of high speed Long Range Strike maneed or unmanned aircraft (realistically < 100) is however in the trade space for 'silver bullet' missions in denied airspace. I don't follow hypersonics as much, but the multitude of DARPA programs exploring high-speed propulsion and platforms suggests by its sheer number that the interest is very real.
 
AeroFranz said:
CAS, by definition, is performed CLOSE to the threat.

Get your terminology correct please: Close Air Support (CAS) is defined as air action against hostile targets that are close to friendly forces. The target is the thing that is close, not necessarily the air platform! In fact CAS has been provided to ground forces in Afghanistan from relatively high altitude using multiple platforms right up to strategic bombers. It can also be provided using standoff weaponry from a distance. The days of Vietnam where you needed slow movers operating just above treetops and using visual means of target identification/acquisition and targeting have been advanced upon.

Now please try again.
 
LowObservable said:
Certainly the pilots don't agree with that observation.

They can say what they want (or indeed what they are told to say) but I'll go with the threshold KPPs, other published data and fairly obvious first-order analysis of the aerodynamics. Yes, I'm sure it accelerates quickly below Mach 1, on the big engine/little wing theory.


So a service pilot (not a company test pilot) who says "this thing is great" (or words to that effect) doesn't rate believing...even though it may well be he/she who has to eventually fight in this platform and put their own, or their comrades' live in the line. Right! Please keep going with this line of argument...it does your credibility wonders!
 
LowObservable said:
No. I'm stating as fact that the whole "fifth-generation" notion is a Russian concept that has been used as a marketing slogan by LockMart, means about as much as "ba ba ba ba I'm lovin' it" and has been swallowed whole by people who ought to know better.


Sounds like you are heading off into Conspiracy Theory territory there.


Regardless of who/when/where the concept was introduced, it has entered common usage within the industry/arena. Yes, there are differences over what constitutes each generation and which platforms are which, but the same basic terminology is used (it's even used to describe military engines as well). Denying it because it doesn't support your line of arguing doesn't change this fact.
 
In no particular order:

Have we ever heard government or contractor test pilots telling the media that their aircraft is (a) rubbish or (b) may be great when it's finished, but it needs a lot of work? IIRC the only people who have ever done that are Navy Opeval teams, but that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

Meanwhile, the KPPs say that the F-35A/C have acceptable range, have a slower design Vmax than almost anything else (which speaks to acceleration) and are merely intended to be comparable to the F-16 and F-18 in maneuver. With 35-40 year later IOC and $55 billion in R&D, that is unimpressive.

And of course AF is right about CAS and stealth. If you can find me someone from the JTAC community waxing lyrical about the future Golden Age of CAS, where guided munitions will drop from invisible, inaudible stealth planes at umpty thousand feet, I'm ready to be convinced. In the real world, weapon times-of-flight from standoff and high altitude are long enough for things to change dramatically on the ground.

No "conspiracy" about 5gen/4gen - the paper trail is clear.
 
GTX said:
Get your terminology correct please: Close Air Support (CAS) is defined as air action against hostile targets that are close to friendly forces. The target is the thing that is close, not necessarily the air platform! In fact CAS has been provided to ground forces in Afghanistan from relatively high altitude using multiple platforms right up to strategic bombers. It can also be provided using standoff weaponry from a distance. The days of Vietnam where you needed slow movers operating just above treetops and using visual means of target identification/acquisition and targeting have been advanced upon.

Now please try again.


sarcasm aside (not really required), sure. I too used to think that the best way of doing CAS was a non-maneuvering airplane parked at altitude, just leisurely plinking precision guided munitions on demand, safely outside of MANPADS range.
Turns out an operator (incidentally, a Marine) had interesting things to say about CAS and his preference for air support.


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14607.msg145559.html#msg145559


I recommend reading the entire thread because it's pretty enlightening.
 
I heard SDB (even SDB-II) come in for some criticism from a member of the JTAC community. Wings are great for range, but only stretch out TOF.

Note also some preference for laser guidance, because in extremis you can walk it off the target.
 
LowObservable said:
For instance, there are a lot of fighter missions, now and in the 2020s, that a Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet, Gripen NG or J-10 will do as well as or better than the F-35, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Bill - I'd be interested in what missions you think any of these jets will do better than an F-35 "...beyond a shadow of a doubt" in the 2020s?
 
LowObservable said:
In no particular order:

Have we ever heard government or contractor test pilots telling the media that their aircraft is (a) rubbish or (b) may be great when it's finished, but it needs a lot of work? IIRC the only people who have ever done that are Navy Opeval teams, but that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

Oh give me a break. If any F-35 pilot said it was a pig you'd treat the words as though they came from the mouth of God Himself, Ares would have daily blog entries breaking the "news" every day for a week, and you'd be busting out the champagne.
 
Magoodotcom said:
Bill - I'd be interested in what missions you think any of these jets will do better than an F-35 "...beyond a shadow of a doubt" in the 2020s?

Target... ;)
 
It's either déjà vu or we keep getting into circular arguments (and I may be as guilty as anyone, all the JSF threads are blending into one), but I think it was mentioned before that you are more likely to be telling the truth if it does NOT help your narrative, rather than if it does. So there is a reason why an unfavorable comment [on F-35 qualities] would gather more credence than a favorable one.
Regarding the busting out of the Champagne, personally I'd rather open it if I were wrong because then it would mean that all my taxpayer's money had been used properly. More in general, a failed JSF does nothing to improve the health of the defense industry, one in which I work.
 
AeroFranz said:
GTX said:
Get your terminology correct please: Close Air Support (CAS) is defined as air action against hostile targets that are close to friendly forces. The target is the thing that is close, not necessarily the air platform! In fact CAS has been provided to ground forces in Afghanistan from relatively high altitude using multiple platforms right up to strategic bombers. It can also be provided using standoff weaponry from a distance. The days of Vietnam where you needed slow movers operating just above treetops and using visual means of target identification/acquisition and targeting have been advanced upon.

Now please try again.


sarcasm aside (not really required), sure. I too used to think that the best way of doing CAS was a non-maneuvering airplane parked at altitude, just leisurely plinking precision guided munitions on demand, safely outside of MANPADS range.
Turns out an operator (incidentally, a Marine) had interesting things to say about CAS and his preference for air support.


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14607.msg145559.html#msg145559


I recommend reading the entire thread because it's pretty enlightening.

That thread is primarily about gunnery, in the context of a guerrilla war fought against insurgents in Urban or mountainous terrain. That context is important. The first month of OEF and OIF were running very differently than the resulting years of insurgency. (The difference between a sprint and a marathon) the ROE changes, the situation changes. I don't think the highly successful buy back program would work as well elsewhere ;) an A-1 skyraider would be great in Broncs case. Just like they were great in Vietnam assuming the enemy didn't bring much flak, radars, missiles, fighters etc. (Even then The USAF "lost 201 Skyraiders to all causes in Southeast Asia, while the Navy lost 65" -wiki-- yeah I know) to all causes However against a real air force or air defense system the game changes... why do you think that Bin Laden raid featured stealth aircraft? Any reason why conventional aircraft would have been in danger more from Pakistan's military than AL-Q or Taliban?

In the case of CAS it must survive in order to accomplish its mission. In short "We must save ourselves, before we can save you" Helicopters tend to fair very badly when sent in deep and independently against conventional forces.

Luckily we don't have to listen to Bronco because service members are ordered to lie right LO? If I was to post another quote from a Marine that contradicted what that Marine said (and it favored F-35 CAS) what does that mean?

There are always going to be disagreements among military "houses"-- Boyd never liked the F-15... How did that F-15 work out? The Irony is if the entire US Military were lock step with Lock Mart and the F-35, there would be complaints of "Brain washing" and drinking the "kool aid", luckily there are differing opinions and if those opinions are anti F-35 thats just good honest talk right there, and if its pro F-35, they have been ordered to lie or have been paid off of course.


AeroFranz said:
but I think it was mentioned before that you are more likely to be telling the truth if it does NOT help your narrative, rather than if it does. So there is a reason why an unfavorable comment [on F-35 qualities] would gather more credence than a favorable one.[/size]

And as has also been previously mentioned there are plenty of negatives for the F-35s rivals/alternate plans that are pretty truthful but seem to get ignored or hand waived. That door swings both ways.

Navy test pilot comments* (as of January 2002):
° "The (F/A-18E/F) aircraft is slower than most fighters fielded since the early 1960s."
° A Hornet pilot who flew numerous side-by-side comparison flights with F/A-18E/F SuperHornets said: "We outran them, we out-flew them and we ran them out of gas. I was embarrassed for them"

Navy F-14 pilots speak vividly about the SuperHornet (in an Associated Press article in late 2001):
"Its the same old Hornet s**t, repackaged, which was designed to keep the politicians happy." He said that "it can never match the Tomcat's long range, (Mach) 2.4 speed and predator mystique. (...) The capability the Tomcat has for speed is amazing, there is not another plane in the Navy's inventory that can come anywhere close to it. You look at the plane on the ground and it looks intimidating, it looks like something that is made for war. I hope the liberal fudge packing, (...) who thought the Hornet could replace this avaition masterpiece rot in hell."

Whoa!! Super Hornets suck! negative though, so it must be true.

Double standards are fun.
 
AeroFranz said:
sarcasm aside (not really required), sure. I too used to think that the best way of doing CAS was a non-maneuvering airplane parked at altitude, just leisurely plinking precision guided munitions on demand, safely outside of MANPADS range.
Turns out an operator (incidentally, a Marine) had interesting things to say about CAS and his preference for air support.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14607.msg145559.html#msg145559

I recommend reading the entire thread because it's pretty enlightening.


That thread lost all credibility with "Nothing will ever be better at CAS than the A1-D Skyraider." Seriously, a WWII platform (remember the Douglas Skyraider first flew in 18 March 1945) using the Mk1 eyeball as its primary sensor and largely using dumb weapons is the best we could ever get? Sounds like a bit of nostalgia to me. I suppose the P-51 will be next offered up as the best in air superiority ...

BTW, your response including the thread you point to still don't address what I was trying to point out. The "Close" in CAS has nothing to do with how close the air platform is to the troops, it is about how close the enemy is! I am yet to hear how the F-35 is somehow worse in that regard. And BTW, I also did not state that CAS from a distance or from altitude is the only way - I was just trying to emphasise my point that air platform distance from the 'action' is not critical to the performance of CAS.

Oh, and don't worry, the sarcasm comes free of charge... ;)
 
AeroFranz said:
It's either déjà vu or we keep getting into circular arguments (and I may be as guilty as anyone, all the JSF threads are blending into one),

Well, you guys keep rolling out the same arguments and we keep shooting them down. Now something new might be nice for a change, so please try. ;)


I must admit that some of this debate feels at times like the following classic Monty Python:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4


AeroFranz said:
Regarding the busting out of the Champagne, personally I'd rather open it if I were wrong because then it would mean that all my taxpayer's money had been used properly. More in general, a failed JSF does nothing to improve the health of the defense industry, one in which I work.

Well then, wouldn't it be in your interest to be talking up the F-35 rather then to be trying to tear it down? After all, at least you might have a stake in the outcome, unlike many a detractor (including some here) who just want the 'notch on their belt'?
 
"Well, you guys keep rolling out the same arguments and we keep shooting them down. Now something new might be nice for a change, so please try. [/size] "


Wow, GTX, that was so eloquently said, I am left speechless. That has done so much to advance the dialogue.


Tucanos and Texans II have the same performance envelope as an A-1, and lots of air forces around the world take them seriously. Sometimes you don't need more than Mk1 eyeball, rockets and 50 cals to do your job. Sometimes being on the job longer than five minutes is all you need.


"Well then, wouldn't it be in your interest to be talking up the F-35 rather then to be trying to tear it down? After all, at least you might have a stake in the outcome, unlike many a detractor (including some here) who just want the 'notch on their belt'?"


Wishin' the F-35 was half as good as LM portrays it to be still don't make it true. I'm stuck with my disillusionment...



TT - No double standards. I wasn't thrilled about the passing of the Tomcat. The Bombcat had awesome payload/range. It tells you something about the sad state of the armed forces and the acquisition process that I've come to be grateful for the presence of a 'warmed up' Hornet.
The reason is it's here, it works, it's a known quantity, it's worth what it costs. Did a lot to rejuvenate the average age of the Navy fleet. What's the AF average? I don't know off the top of my head but it's a lot.


"In the case of CAS it must survive in order to accomplish its mission. In short "We must save ourselves, before we can save you" Helicopters tend to fair very badly when sent in deep and independently against conventional forces."

Not arguing for helicopters in that scenario. But I'm advocating for a more balanced and affordable survivability that does not rely on a blade that IMHO is losing its edge. As I mentioned previously, I don't think that RCS can be reduced much more, while radar keeps getting better. Furthermore, the cost of low RCS is exponential. As Silent Eagle and Stealthy Hornet show, you can get a lot (not all) of the benefits for a fraction of the penalties (and no, I don't think the AF should buy more warmed up Eagles). I think that F-35 pays a hefty price for its small signature, a price it will keep carrying in combat for the next three-four decades even though the advantage it derives from it might erode as early as the next one.
 
AeroFranz said:

Wow, GTX, that was so eloquently said, I am left speechless. That has done so much to advance the dialogue.

touche.gif


AeroFranz said:
Tucanos and Texans II have the same performance envelope as an A-1, and lots of air forces around the world take them seriously. Sometimes you don't need more than Mk1 eyeball, rockets and 50 cals to do your job. Sometimes being on the job longer than five minutes is all you need.

I assume you are referring to the EMB-314 Super Tucano/ALX/A-29 and AT-6B Texan II rather then the stock standard trainer versions. Now whilst I like these designs, I think you will find those air forces are for the most part not first world western militaries. Secondly, even when they are used, it is primarily for COIN type operations. You are certainly not seeing any of the major first world militaries (such as those looking at the F-35) seriously considering them. And before you say "what about the USA", I suggest you look carefully at the US Light Air Support (LAS) competition for which it was/is being considered. This was largely focused upon the low-intensity/COIN requirement and NOT as the primary weapon in supporting US troops on the ground.

And being on the job 5 min longer? Wouldn't that just guarantee being shot down...as you seem to surmise it would for the F-35 ::)

AeroFranz said:
Wishin' the F-35 was half as good as LM portrays it to be still don't make it true. I'm stuck with my disillusionment...

Well, if you want to stick with your disillusionment. Meanwhile many of us like to focus on delivering a superlative weapon system to be proud of. ;D

AeroFranz said:
The Bombcat had awesome payload/range.

Well be prepared to be thrilled again:

F-14D: Payload=14,500 lb (6,600 kg), Combat Radius=500 nmi (926 km)
F-35A: Payload=18,000 lb (8,100 kg), Combat Radius=584 nmi (1,080 km) on internal fuel

AeroFranz said:
I think that F-35 pays a hefty price for its small signature, a price it will keep carrying in combat for the next three-four decades even though the advantage it derives from it might erode as early as the next one.

This sort of comment always amuses me. I would like to remind people that the combination of technologies/techniques/tactics that is commonly referred to as Stealth or Low Observability (LO) is nothing new. Almost as long as there have been fights, people have been looking for ways to gain an advantage over their counterparts. When we were relying on visual detection methods only, we relied on technologies such as camouflage or misleading paint schemes or tactics such as diving out of the sun. When radar became more prevalent, the idea of flying below the radar gained popularity. Now days, when we are applying these new LO technologies we are doing so because they remove some of the limitations of the past – therefore a modern combat aircraft with modern LO technologies applied is able to fly at medium altitude which increases range and also reduces pilot fatigue or potential for attack by guns/flak. So in essence, modern LO technologies are not in fact compromising a platform, rather they are in actual fact expanding its potential/capabilities/usefulness!

You are also apparently assuming that this must be a win-lose game. This is misleading and also inaccurate. Sure, some LO features require special consideration to incorporate. But then again, just about everything else does as well – e.g. if you want a very high maximum speed then there will be certain features such as variable intakes (heavy), radome features (high maintenance), cockpit/canopy design (potentially limiting tactically). There is nothing new about this. The design of any platform, especially modern combat aircraft is always a matter of balancing different aspects and making compromises. LO is nothing new or especially different in that regard.

You also seem to fall into the common belief that the F-35 relies only on its LO features. This ignores the fact that it has superlative physical performance (remember that "viper on steroids" comment) + an EW system probably second to none not to mention an outstanding sensor suite/data fusion capability allowing for unparalleled situational awareness.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
However against a real air force or air defense system the game changes... why do you think that Bin Laden raid featured stealth aircraft? Any reason why conventional aircraft would have been in danger more from Pakistan's military than AL-Q or Taliban?

Conventional aircraft like the Chinooks that came in behind the SHHHH-60s with the QRF, through the same IADS?
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
When you find a reason that stealth is useful for CAS, let me know.

Other than survivability?

Low observability is one facet of survivability.
If I were in close contact with an enemy force, I would rather have an A-10 overhead than an F-117.
 
Fascinating thread. Much info that I had not come across before.

My only question from the Brit point of view is that we have Typhoons coming out of our ears and UAVs being developed by BAe/EADS, do we really need F35, even if it is good as some here claim?

The carrier programme is a luxury item as it was in 1996, so I would axe it and the related aircraft.
 
Well, also from the UK perspective, with GR4 going out of service, something would have to replace them. Whether F35B is the optimum solution, I couldn't say but it's likely all we're going to get....

As to UAS / RPAS, they're good for some things (loitering bomb truck / ISTAR platform) but others require a manned platform. I'm quite sure a developed Mantis could be in service quite quickly but if we're talking something Taranis-ish, that will take longer (I suspect F35 will be in service before anything like that troubles the skies of Lincolnshire).

As to the QE class carriers being luxuries, that's an opinion you're entitled to. Others may disagree ;)
 
Magoodotcom said:
There appears to be more than one flavour of Kool-Aid...
'Querulous Squash' anyone? :p
And a side order of baloney, please.
 

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