The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

shed

In an ideal world, or if the economy was still being fed by North Sea Oil and Gas as it was in the days of Blair's 1998 SDR I would agree with your points fully and also would not be so harsh about the carriers.

However, in our present plight and with the burden of Iraq and Afghanistan having emptied the Defence Budget I think that 1966-7 or 1974 are good precedents (after all in those days we faced a fully armed and hostile Soviet Union.

Today, however you cut it, the major powers are in the Far East where we no longer have any post imperial commitments (Singapore is in much better shape to defend itself than we are). In Europe, Putin's Russia may be a problem for its neighbours but that is for Turkey, Poland and Germany to spend money on before we have to.

Typhoon is well able to carry out the GR 4 role after modification and the new unmanned aircraft will probably arrive soon after the problematic F35s and what is more they will not be subject to US political interference with their technology.

If there were an enemy fleet in being or a sizeable Atlantic threat I might be as pro CVF as I was CVA 01 but there isnt.

I am afraid it comes down to us being on the edge of an economic cliff..
 
uk 75 said:
Fascinating thread. Much info that I had not come across before.

My only question from the Brit point of view is that we have Typhoons coming out of our ears and UAVs being developed by BAe/EADS, do we really need F35, even if it is good as some here claim?

The carrier programme is a luxury item as it was in 1996, so I would axe it and the related aircraft.

Nope thats where your wrong, in 66 the focus was very much the threat from the Warsaw Pact, but even the carrier fleet East of Suez was to have been replaced by the RAF flying from strategic island bases around the region.
We no longer have these, sure we more than enough Typhoons for UK defence but after that it gets very ropey, Its simple the RAF simply can no longer provide air support to british interests around the globe, thus the nessessity for the Carriers and a viable carrier aircraft. We are simply too reliant on resources around the globe to rely on others to protect our supply lines, resources or areas of interest, so we have to step up too the mark and bite the bullet so we can take our air cover where we need it.
 
F-14D: Payload=14,500 lb (6,600 kg), Combat Radius=500 nmi (926 km)
F-35A: Payload=18,000 lb (8,100 kg), Combat Radius=584 nmi (1,080 km) on internal fuel


Let's start with the screamingly obvious facts.

The F-14 design was dominated by air defense, and consequently stores-carriage arrangements were optimized around the basic armament of 6 x AIM-54. 14.5 k is the pylon limit, I believe.

With max internal load and two SRAAMs outboard, and 2K weapons on stations 2 and 10, the F-35A needs to hang well over 4K lb on both 9 and 3 to get to 18000 pounds. I would regard that configuration as rather unlikely (and the performance and combat radius will su... I mean, be less than exciting). Wake me up when it is flight-tested and cleared for operational use.

ProTip - If you're trying to pose as an expert, pulling numbers straight off Wackypedia doesn't help. Wacky is not all bad, but not reliable for performance comparisons because there's no common standard for the numbers.
 
LowObservable said:
ProTip - If you're trying to pose as an expert, pulling numbers straight off Wackypedia doesn't help. Wacky is not all bad, but not reliable for performance comparisons because there's no common standard for the numbers.

Means a lot coming from someone who has been posing as an expert for so long. Glad to know I'm not the only one who nicknamed Carlo Kopp and his Website Wacky ;D

Great News!

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/first-dutch-f-35-flies-around-fort-worth-375582/

First RLNAF.
 
Seriously, TT, if I have been posting inaccurate, unreliably sourced or misleading data here (as opposed to analysis or opinion), feel free to correct me.

And you would be very surprised at the people I have seen citing Dr Kopp's writings. Again, if you could cite a factually based criticism of his work from someone who is not a paid JSF defender or an anonymous internet commenter, it would be highly illuminating.

Oh, and great news indeed! The Dutch government is so proud of it, that they won't let LM officially announce it!
 
LowObservable said:
Seriously, TT, if I have been posting inaccurate or misleading data here (as opposed to analysis or opinion), feel free to correct me.

I wouldn't say that, I would just say that you ignore any inconvenient facts, and when confronted you move to another subject "OK it does what you say-- but but cost!!." OR Like GTXs post ignore it entirely. Congrats on catching the wiki thing, now how about refuting the other 99% of what GTX has said? OR are you still "too busy" since you are giving Protips, I'd say you've got time.

I would love to see you and GTX go shot for shot on the F-35. He seems to post these really long explanations, and refute the anti f-35 crew point by point and you...? pick one fact and then try to use that to discredit a very thorough response. Then repeat. When asked to provide an alternative you either give no response or call that contest illogical.

I'm still trying to figure out how when giving alternatives to buy three aircraft to do the job that would take one F-35, Do we magically get those 3 modern aircraft to become cheaper than the JSFs price? How are three "cheap" aircraft going to be less than one F-35?

My solution is simple. Cancel the F-35 and instead buy:

Ultra Hornets
Super Hornets
Growlers
F-35A (Even though its the death of western air power as we know it)
Gripens
Tucanos
Extending the Harrier into infinity (that'll work, just have to plant parts trees)
UCAVs
UAVs
develop yet another aircraft "Neo Tomcat" that will be magically cheaper as well (Just in time too, Its been too long since the US has developed an airplane that got complex, expensive, and delayed. I think you are advocating this one so you can have another ten years of job security complaining about it)

See how easy that was? ;D

LowObservable said:
Oh, and great news indeed! The Dutch government is so proud of it, that they won't let LM officially announce it!

This is exactly my point. Using emotion "pride" rather than the fact that they are you know, buying the freaking airplane. So even when you are losing LO --The F-35 just keeps selling-- the fact that the Dutch are keeping it quiet in anticipation of election, reflects on the aircraft? Politicians trying to be low profile about unpopular subjects during an election year suddenly reflects on aircraft performance? Proud or not they are buying it. ;) So if the best you have is "Well yeah they are buying it... But, But, they aren't shouting it from the rooftops so it doesn't count." Well you got me there LO. I guess I will just have to settle for the aircraft selling, and worry about the pride later. Pride doesn't make the aircraft cheaper though, production does.

The other aspect of this is that the many people who work on the F-35 and are proud of it (Right down to the men who actually fly the aircraft) doesn't count for anything in your book. ;D
 
LowObservable said:
Oh, and great news indeed! The Dutch government is so proud of it, that they won't let LM officially announce it!
Buying into JSF development is a turnoff for Dutch voters. Two political parties are currently in favour. They haven't been able to gain a majority since 2002, but were able to find coallition partners who were willing to renege on their pre-election promises to cancel Dutch involvement in JSF development. In 2002. Again in 2003. And in 2007. And in 2010. Elections are due next month, and guess what, it looks like there is going to be another majority against Dutch involvement in JSF development.

TT: you'd better hush this one up.
 
GTX said:
I would like to remind people that the combination of technologies/techniques/tactics that is commonly referred to as Stealth or Low Observability (LO) is nothing new. Almost as long as there have been fights, people have been looking for ways to gain an advantage over their counterparts. When we were relying on visual detection methods only, we relied on technologies such as camouflage or misleading paint schemes or tactics such as diving out of the sun. When radar became more prevalent, the idea of flying below the radar gained popularity. Now days, when we are applying these new LO technologies we are doing so because they remove some of the limitations of the past – therefore a modern combat aircraft with modern LO technologies applied is able to fly at medium altitude which increases range and also reduces pilot fatigue or potential for attack by guns/flak. So in essence, modern LO technologies are not in fact compromising a platform, rather they are in actual fact expanding its potential/capabilities/usefulness!

You are also apparently assuming that this must be a win-lose game. This is misleading and also inaccurate. Sure, some LO features require special consideration to incorporate. But then again, just about everything else does as well – e.g. if you want a very high maximum speed then there will be certain features such as variable intakes (heavy), radome features (high maintenance), cockpit/canopy design (potentially limiting tactically). There is nothing new about this. The design of any platform, especially modern combat aircraft is always a matter of balancing different aspects and making compromises. LO is nothing new or especially different in that regard.

You also seem to fall into the common belief that the F-35 relies only on its LO features. This ignores the fact that it has superlative physical performance (remember that "viper on steroids" comment) + an EW system probably second to none not to mention an outstanding sensor suite/data fusion capability allowing for unparalleled situational awareness.

And I agree perfectly with the above. Where we disagree is, so to speak, the design point.
My main concern is the greater performance growth potential of radar versus shaping and RAM in the coming decade. Because if (and i realize this is a big hypothetical if) that comes to pass, it is a problem for designs dominated by RCS considerations.

I think it's a legitimate question, and I've brought it up two or three times already because it's central to the discussion, at least as far as I am concerned. It's also a broad topic and I have not thought of all it's facets, so I'd be interested in hearing opinions on the subject.
 
LowObservable said:
Let's start with the screamingly obvious facts.

The F-14 design was dominated by air defense, and consequently stores-carriage arrangements were optimized around the basic armament of 6 x AIM-54. 14.5 k is the pylon limit, I believe.


Well, duh!!! It doesn't alter the fact that the "Bombcat" which was being praised for its payload/range is outperformed by the F-35. And yes, both sets of figures are 'brochure' figures, I know. But then again, rarely will you ever see an actual combat mission with this so one could argue both sets of figures are potentially meaningless. All I am trying to do it to point out that if people get excited about one thing, then by default they should be also excited when something beats it!

LowObservable said:
ProTip - If you're trying to pose as an expert, pulling numbers straight off Wackypedia doesn't help. Wacky is not all bad, but not reliable for performance comparisons because there's no common standard for the numbers.

Here's a tip back at you: when I use such numbers etc, I always make sure they are referenced by other sources first. In this case, the F-14 figures are backed up by other sources such as Joe Baugher and the F-35 figures come from Lockheed Martin (oh that's right, they only tell lies...).


As for "posing", I'll leave that up to you Bill... ;)
 
It doesn't alter the fact that the "Bombcat" which was being praised for its payload/range is outperformed by the F-35.

So are you saying that your Wikinumbers indicate that an F-35 will carry a larger load over a longer distance than the F-14?

I'm not saying that's impossible (although it's not likely). Nor am I saying those numbers are inaccurate.

But if you think those numbers show that an F-35 can haul 18000 pounds over a 584 mile radius, and that an F-14 can haul 14500 pounds over a 550 mile radius - well, they don't.

Nor do they show that the F-35 can haul more, farther, than an F-14, just because the numbers are bigger.
 
AeroFranz - That's a very good point. Anyone who thinks I regard stealth as a bad thing, or completely useless, has real problems with their reading skills. Being less visible is good, but being less visible to radar has a price.

Less visibility = more price, in dollars and performance, and what we have seen in 27 years is that the price becomes unaffordable at a certain point.

There is also a price in terms of adaptability. If you look at most successful and long-lived military aircraft, their evolution over time is visible in lumps, bumps, warts and antennas. and in things hanging off the outside. You can't do that with an F-35-style LO airframe. Look at the problems encountered with adding wideband two-way satcom to the B-2 (I think they have given up).

Meanwhile, if stealth is primarily a matter of shaping (and this seems to be LockMart's mantra) then it can't be easily improved, so you'd better hope that the LO requirement set in 1995-2000 correctly anticipated the radar threats of 2025-30.

GTX's response to you is pretty typical, too:

You also seem to fall into the common belief [let's talk down to the masses here] that the F-35 relies only on its LO features. This ignores the fact that it has superlative physical performance (remember that "viper on steroids" comment)

Known facts: The KPPs describe modest Mach numbers and comparable agility to an F-16/18.

+ an EW system probably second to none

It's passive EW may be good, but as far as is known (there is no evidence otherwise) it has no jamming outside the X-band, and that in the front 120-degree aspect.

not to mention an outstanding sensor suite/data fusion capability allowing for unparalleled situational awareness.

Outstanding? Unparalleled? Evidence?
 
LowObservable said:
let's talk down to the masses here

Well, you seem to know what it is all about Bill since you do it constantly...along with making unjustifiable, absolute statements such as "everyone knows" etc.

LowObservable said:
The KPPs describe modest Mach numbers and comparable agility to an F-16/18.

So we're back into the numbers game are we? Ok then, if Mach 1.6 is not good enough, what is? Mach 2? Mach 2.5? Mach 3? Seriously you can't just throwout a criticism referring to supposed "modest mach numbers" without also stating what is acceptable.

As to the agility criticism, once again if being "comparable... to an F-16/18" is somehow bad, then what should it be. Moreover, why? Please remember that the days of close in dogfights are not what real air combat is about these days.

LowObservable said:
Outstanding? Unparalleled? Evidence?

I always love it how the F-35 supporters have to justify everything (which of course is then just "LM propaganda" or similar) but the detractors don't. Now unfortunately, as you well know (or should!), the requirements of national security/corporate confidentiality and the like prevents me from publishing full facts. However, I am sure that someone with your recognised standing in the industry would be able to approach either LM or one of their partners or the JPO or similar to get classified briefings to dispel your concerns. Of course that might mean talking to some of those 'devils' or worse, having some of your assertions proven wrong. Can't have that can we... ::)
 
LowObservable said:
I'm not saying that's impossible (although it's not likely). Nor am I saying those numbers are inaccurate.

I'm sorry, you are confusing me and I suspect yourself... ;) .

Mind you, let's not just deal with the simple, little side issues when there are more then enough other points that you have carefully avoided addressing.
 
LowObservable said:
Meanwhile, if stealth is primarily a matter of shaping (and this seems to be LockMart's mantra)

This is more a matter of physics. Shaping will always be the dominant factor in RCS, though with (speculative) frequency selective materials this does not necessarily mean the outer mold line.
 
GTX - Numbers game? You were the one asserting "superlative performance" so it is up to you to define what that is. The KPPs say "F-16/18 class" and that ain't superlative, so out with the numbers, sir, and tell us how good the JSF is.

Now unfortunately, as you well know (or should!), the requirements of national security/corporate confidentiality and the like prevents me from publishing full facts.


Oh, what a cop-out. So you are cleared at a classified or corp-confidential level? Yes or no? If yes, should you be disclosing that status here, or implying that you have such status? That's generally a violation in itself. And performance numbers are not corporate-confidential unless they're classified, are they?

However, I am sure that someone with your recognised standing in the industry would be able to approach either LM or one of their partners or the JPO or similar to get classified briefings to dispel your concerns.

Moi? If I had clearance or need to know (which I don't have and don't need or want) I would not be so much of an asinine, weak and unreliable fool as to brag about it online.
 
Sounds like someone trying to avoid the point...

...and more laughable/sad (haven't decided which yet), 'sticking their head in the sand' or 'fingers in ears' (your call which) not wanting to risk getting facts or having their rantings proven for what they are. ::)
 
You're the one claiming classified/confidential access?

Do you have such access? Yes or no?

Not a difficult question.
 
Going back to the cost/price issue for a bit since critics like to raise it as a major concern (I was getting a tad bored with the semantics game of 5th Gen etc anyway). Now first up, please let me state that I am not discounting this concern as a valid one. So let’s look into this whole issue a little more.

First up, when people discuss price, what exactly are they talking about? “What?” you may say, “isn’t it obvious?”. Well, actually it isn’t, especially when people start throwing around $ figures without qualification or full details. Why do I say this? Well for one, there is no one single price. As the diagram below succinctly shows, there are actually multiple possible prices able to be referred to. Of course this is something that many critics either don’t appreciate themselves or sometimes conveniently ignore since they think it makes their points all the more forceable. Neither is all this some sort of corporate double speak meant to confuse you. Rather, as with some of the other issues discussed it is just another case of the real world being a little less black/white then some would try to imply. Don’t blame me...it’s just the way it is!

f-35cost213.jpg

Now, depending upon which price you refer to, you may be including or excluding certain aspects. At the most basic level, you have what is referred to as the Unit Recurring Flyaway Cost or URF. This is the cost to the service (read military customer) to buy the aircraft from the producer (Lockheed Martin & Co. in this case) and fly it away. Interestingly, this is also the price that I believe most people would think of if you were to ask them what the price of the aircraft is. Now it is also important to remember here that the F-35 comes mission capable as a part of the URF price, unlike many of its competitors that need additional systems/pods etc added in to reach the equivalent level of mission capability.

Moving beyond URF, you get various costs such as total Flyaway Cost, where Non-recurring costs and ancillary equipment are added in. However these tend to be amortised across the production quantities. Examples of such costs might include the initial tooling up or milling machine machine programing costs (if you were machining metal parts). These are the type of costs that need to be incurred but which typically only occur once right at the start of production - e.g. you don’t reprogram the CNC mill each time you make the same part. The result of all this being that the price is always dependent upon the quantity of aircraft (or indeed individual parts) being produced – the higher this number, the lower the individual cost…

Next we see Weapons System Cost. Here you start seeing such additional aspects as Tech Data/Publications and various training and related. Once again though, these items tend to be amortised across production orders/buys – e.g. you don’t buy a whole new set of publications with each aircraft bought.

Moving on, we have Average Production Unit Cost (APUC). Not only does this include those costs already discussed above, but it also starts to add in the cost of initial spares. Now, one has to also remember here that the size of this initial spares might vary from service to service, customer to customer. It also may include things that later prove un-needed. Importantly, at this point one starts to see the influence of different operating scenarios as well as budgetary considerations starting to take hold. And yet again, the cost of these spares tends to be amortised across the aircraft quantity. These spares aren’t necessarily small change either, especially if one starts to include things such as above fit engines…

Beyond this, we have Program Acquisition Unit Cost (PAUC). Now this is one a lot of people like to throw around (often because it starts generating some large numbers). The PAUC figure includes amortisation (yep, that term again!) of all the development costs across the expected production run. This one especially can result in significant price rises when production numbers are reduced: the development costs have already largely been sunk/spent/incurred (which ever term you like) and as a result, each time you buy one less aircraft, these costs need to be spread out over a smaller quantity. This one is also a bit of a ‘Catch 22’ in that theoretically, one can try to spend more time on development (e.g. build more proof of concept demonstrators; do more design work etc) all with an aim of ensuring that production and entry into operational service proceeds smoothly and that arguably latter production costs are lower. Unfortunately though, the more you do this, the higher the development costs and thus by default the higher the PAUC.

Now moving beyond this, we have the Life Cycle Cost where you start including operations and support costs (e.g. consumables etc). Also very closely related to this is the final ‘cost’, the Total Ownership Cost which includes more support items, other infrastructure costs as well as ongoing mods and updates. These ones really start opening you up to multiple variables because each different customer (once again, read military service) has a unique set of requirements and options for their aircraft and the way they intend to support and use them, not to mention the level of additional infrastructure and the like that may or may not be required. To help exemplify how this works, let’s look at the F/A-18 (the classic version, not the Super Hornet). The operators of this jet include the USN, the USMC, the RAAF, the RCAF, the Kuwait Air Force, the RMAF, the Finnish Ilmavoimat, the Spanish Ejército del Aire and the Swiss Air Force. Now, no two of these services use the F/A-18 in the same manner or with necessary the same equipment fit out and as such their life cycle costs and total ownership costs all vary. For instance, one thing the RAAF and RCAF discovered (and which has been well documented) was that their aircraft were experiencing different fatigue growth then their USN brethren: Much of the USN fatigue usage is dominated by carrier catapult take-offs and arrested landings (obviously), which create great stresses on the undercarriage and fuselage whereas RCAF/RAAF fatigue usage exhibits higher and sustained g loadings that have a greater effect on the centre fuselage and wings. As such, the RAAF/RCAF aircraft have required different maintenance and modifications/upgrades then their USN counterparts to deal with this. As such, this alone would generate differing Total Ownership Costs for the RCAF/RAAF Hornets then their USN counterparts.

Now getting back to the question of F-35 cost. Which cost are we talking about? At the most basic level if you want to compare against alternative fighters (i.e. does the F-35 cost more/less then say, a Eurofighter Typhoon, regardless of whether you believe the capabilities offered by each are equal or not), you need to start using the URF since this eliminates many of the variables detailed above. In very simple terms, it allows you to say “All other elements (e.g. operating costs etc) being equal, which aircraft can I buy more of for a fixed amount of money”. Now, in terms of URF, where does the F-35 sit in comparison with other alternate fighters?

Well, according to the latest readily available public information (from the U.S. Selected Acquisition Report (SAR)), the average URF is given as $78.7M for the F-35A, $106.5M for the F-35B and $87M for the F-35C, in 2012 USD. That assumes a total production run of 2,443 aircraft for the U.S. plus 697 for the international partners and 19 FMS for Israel.

As a comparison, the URF of the latest F-16 model is supposedly around the $60 - $70M USD mark. That for the latest Tranche 3 of the Eurofighter Typhoon is reportedly €90M (~US$111M). For the Dassault Rafale, I have seen costs in the €60 – €70M (~US$74 - US$86M) region.

Now, I will not state that any of these costs is exact and I’m sure someone will jump up and down pointing that out. Anyone who has experience with this sort of thing will know that trying to discover actual prices of combat aircraft is harder then finding the proverbial “hens teeth” or if you prefer, it can be likened to being “a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma”. Quite apart from the fact that no two aircraft deals are alike (even for the same platform), the fact is that most companies will guard their prices closer than the crown jewels and won’t willingly go through the ‘luxury’ of having their costs/prices published openly for all to see. What I have tried to do though is to provide the best information I could without spending an inordinate amount of time researching. Now if you want to do this and can provide irrefutable proof of your numbers then by all means please do so.

Before moving on, there is one other aspect of the URF (and by default, all of the other pricing that builds upon it) that needs to be considered. This is the fact that as production numbers increase (both in total quantities and years in production), you will see the URF will continue to come down as production efficiencies and lessons learnt kick in. To a degree this is also due to the price curve aspect that I pointed out a few pages back. I can assure you that I have seen this occur even between a couple of years of production as people discover better, more efficient, less costly ways of doing the same thing. The important thing to take away from this is that just because you see a price reference today, it is in now way guaranteed that that is the fixed price for ever and a day.

Now, I am sure some of you will like to point at other costs (if only because they can via the SAR). Well, let’s take the PAUC and APUC as a figure to look at, though please do remember the aspects of these prices that I pointed out above. Now looking at some of these figures can be quite easy because the latest SAR actually provides this info in a nice graphical format:

prices.jpg

Now, I am sure people will jump on this and point out the price increases. Look, I’ll even help you: both PAUC and APUC have apparently increased roughly 51% over the last 10 or so years. No-one is denying that. However, whereas some here are trying to paint this as an out-of-control death spiral (dream on boys and girls, no-one in any official position is seriously talking about canceling the F-35 program), the fact remains that it is far from this. As already pointed out in earlier posts, changes to the way the customers buy aircraft and the quantities they are doing so has a major impact on the price (for instance, if you keep buying in very low quantities, of course the prices are going to remain high because companies can never get down the price curves). The fact that production is still in the relatively early stages means that there is still some way to go on this front for some of the reasons I have already pointed out. Out of interest, I think there have been something like a total of 117 aircraft either delivered or on order/in assembly – mind you, this is kind of a few more then a program such as the beloved TSR.2 in case anyone thinks this would be a simple program to also cancel….

Now, are these costs higher than everyone would have liked? Of course they are. Do you really think Lockheed Martin and their partners or even their customers enjoy all the pressure being applied because of this aspect? Of course not! Those of us involved in producing components for the program can also assure you that the pressure to reduce prices is enormous. However, just as assuredly, this is not something that is easy to make so...without a magic wand that is. Moreover, some of those cost drivers are for things that have already occurred (e.g. increased development costs) and thus without a time machine are unable to be recovered no matter how hard we all work. It’s all well and good for some here to jump up and down and yell “it’s not good enough” or “we told you so”. However, once again, I would simply ask “where was all this supposed expertise when it was apparently needed?” and more so, what do you propose to do about it?

Finally, as has already been highlighted many times, the cost of not having the F-35 is, in my opinion, even greater…unless of course the countries involved with the F-35 or looking at acquiring it, decide to go without a modern combat aircraft altogether… Now whilst some may well consider this an option, I can assure you that the majority will not. Does anyone here really see the USAF trying to keep its existing fleets of F-15s, F-16s and A-10s (some of which are getting on for 30 odd yrs old) in service or foregoing new designs when all of their allies or more importantly supposed competitors are getting new equipment? Does anyone really think that you can simply cancel the F-35 tomorrow, start a new fighter (or UCAV) program that will provide equal of better capability and that it will be in service in a short time and with no repeats of some of the issues experienced with the F-35? I’m sorry boys and girls, but that is the realm of fantasy and dreams. Oh, and by the way, don’t also forget that attempting to do so, especially in the midst of the worst economic period since the Great Depression would devastate the industry involved and put thousands of people out of work...not that that matters to anyone.
 
LowObservable said:
You're the one claiming classified/confidential access?

Do you have such access? Yes or no?

Not a difficult question.

I have the level of access that I require. I am also intelligent enough to know what can be openly reported and what cannot. End of story.

Now let's go back to the triggering issue shall we. You raise the issue of top Mach speed implying that that the F-35 is not good enough ("modest" being the exact word used). When I ask what is good enough then, you avoid answering the question and instead try to put it back on me. Sure sounds like avoiding the issue to me.

Now, as for the rest, well Bill, I tend to think that if you contacted Lockheed Martin or some of the other parties I suggested and said, "look, I write a lot about the F-35 and I am openly sceptical of it but want to ensure I have the facts", would they rush to welcome you on down to give a full tour and briefings? Of course they would! In fact, they might even pay for the flights etc. Now of course when you say "which I don't have and don't need or want" in regard to the information, it simply proves to me that you don't want to risk being proven out as a fraud. So much nicer continuing to live in ignorance and to carry on ranting about how bad it is... ::)
 
Question: Do you have classified/confidential access? You implied that quite clearly.

Now unfortunately, as you well know (or should!), the requirements of national security/corporate confidentiality and the like prevents me from publishing full facts.

"I have the level of access that I require" is not, of course, an answer.

As for the long screed on cost that you use to distract attention, you got something majorly wrong.

Let's look at that colorful picture you posted that shows how the procurement cost has risen "only" 51 per cent, and then go on to explain how this isn't too bad:
prices.jpg


Notice something funny?

Wow, the APUC went down by $17.7 million between Dec 2010 and Dec 2011. There's an amazing achievement. How did they do this?

BY LEAVING OUT THE ENGINE.

If you then read pp 64-65 of the SAR, you find that the engine costs are broken out separately for the first time this year.

So the real APUC increase is not 51 per cent, but 80 per cent.

Now, there are programs out there which have had massive APUC overshoots. However, those have been associated with very large production rate or quantity reductions, and the F-35 - still planned and priced on the premise that it will reach a sustained production rate of 130 USG aircraft per year - has not been radically cut back.

For reasons that I may explain later, the APUC increase is (at best) a sign of calamitous mismanagement.

The SAR is a very confusing document, and its interpretation is best left to grown-ups.

By the way, your F-16 price of $60-$70 million is almost certainly way off the mark. The URF of a Super Hornet in 2012 is under $56 million and it is a much larger aircraft.

OK, back to the question: Do you have classified/confidential level access to F-35 performance numbers? Yes/no?
 
LowObservable said:
"I have the level of access that I require" is not, of course, an answer.

He is not required by you, moderators, or anyone else on this forum to answer that question. You, knowing this ask, knowing he can't or won't answer you only asked it as an attempt to discredit him.

And if you insist, the very least you could do would be to answer that question yourself first. Great attempt at subterfuge. Seeing as you have nothing, I know attacking people is the best you have to try and prove your argument. Its not about you being right, It about proving others wrong. Which is why all pro F-35 facts must be lies, propaganda, etc.

Bill I'm just happy you finally responded to a GTX post. You are doing better! Now on to the others.
 
Why is an 80 per cent increase in APUC, absent changes to requirements, halving or more of production rate or similar cataclysm, a very bad thing and a BFD?

Airplanes are made out of parts. Each part has a cost that comprises (mostly) raw material, and the labor needed to make it and connect it to the parts it needs to connect to.

The process of estimating the production cost of a new aircraft design (or car, or anything else) involves breaking the design down into parts, and using knowledge and experience to estimate those individual costs.

Now, any new design can have three kinds of parts in it. There are some parts that are generic, the next thing to buying from a catalog: tires, brakes, fasteners, brackets. There are some that are unique and new (for instance, some of the F-35B's transmission components, possibly some of the flight-weight high-powered electrics, and some LO systems).

However, in the case of most new airplanes, the great preponderance of the parts (by weight, number and production cost) are new designs that are made by existing processes, or small variations thereof. A bulkhead, wing skin or landing gear strut for an F-35 is built in much the same way as it is for an F-22 or F-18. Avionics are made out of components that come off a robust supply chain.

Now, there's no good reason to have any cost variance on generic parts, absent inflation or a surprise change in raw material cost.

You might well find that your new and unique things cost twice what you expected - but even if all of them do that and they constitute 20 per cent of your value (which I suspect is high), that's still only a 20 per cent increase in total cost.

But most of the airplane is made out of known materials with known processes (layup, forging, machining &c). There's really no excuse for these to be, on average, very far from prediction. It would be impossible for any commercial aircraft manufacturer to stay in business if 50, 50, 70 or 80 per cent overruns were the norm. If anyone can cite a comparable case, let me know. (Not the F-22 or B-2 because the numbers and rates in those case crashed dramatically.)

Note also that the historical trend in the numbers - using those tied to a specific date, that is 2001, 2004, 2007, 2010 and 2012 - is a steady increase. That's to say, the more F-35s they build, the more the estimated cost has gone up.

What is the cause? Deliberate misfeasance by knowingly underbidding the contract - an issue raised by GTX before he backpedaled like hell? Maybe.

More likely: Off the wall optimism. I suspect that the planners in FW, being not very familiar with modern high-rate production, made some very silly assumptions about how high rates, commercial supply-chain practices, automation, computer-aided design and other things would save money, stacked them up and applied them willy-nilly across nearly every part of the airplane.

This process was most likely motivated and aided by groupthink - a customer who wanted a Porsche at a Chevy price, bosses who hounded the engineers to find cost-saving miracles... and the same bosses, and the same customer, rubber-stamping the estimates as they flowed back up the decision chain.

It's a BFD because the cost increases have now reached a point where it is questionable where the Pentagon can find the money ($13+ billion a year) simply to sustain production. That is more than the entire 2012 combat aircraft budget for R&D and procurement. And believe me, defense budgets are not trending upwards.
 
He is not required by you, moderators, or anyone else on this forum to answer that question.

Bilge. If GTX wants to give a sly wink and suggest he knows more than anyone else, he can either back it up or retract it.

If he wants his clearance status to remain a secret, he should not have mentioned it.

And if there are rules of engagement here, why are so many people keen to identify me as a known individual (a common challenge to which I maintain a firm NCND policy - does someone out there think that there's only one JSF critic who can write?) while hiding demurely behind their own pseudonyms?

I thought I answered "that question" above:

If I had clearance or need to know (which I don't have and don't need or want) I would not be so much of an asinine, weak and unreliable fool as to brag about it online.

Not clear enough for you?

And having shown GTX to be amazingly careless with his facts, I'm done wasting time on his ponderous and windy ramblings for a while.
 
@ Low Observable: very enlightening on the numbers presented. One would think that leaving out the engine would have deserved a footnote in the chart - as it is very often only the charts that are floating around. There is a significant possibility for people to unknowingly disregard/willingly overlook this important fact.
How many people do really dig deep and read the reports in detail (in this case it is even stated first in the exec. summary though).

Keep posting as I enjoy reading your statements across this forum a lot.
 
LowObservable said:
And having shown GTX to be amazingly careless with his facts, I'm done wasting time on his ponderous and windy ramblings for a while.

You would think that would be a great excuse to prove such careless facts wrong and advance your own arguments, but instead you are "done" , having never responded to the previous GTX posts. That's the elephant in the room LO: Until you can respond with facts of your own that displace or disprove or at least contend with those facts, all your arguments are just lame attempts at justifying your prejudices. The onus is on you to disprove the official numbers. Lock-mart, the Military, and others freely publish their facts and even feelings and theories on the F-35, and its up to you to fight them using facts and truth, not to be "done" when they are displayed, while you continue to disapprove of it.
 
@ Low Observable: very enlightening on the numbers presented. One would think that leaving out the engine would have deserved a footnote in the chart - as it is very often only the charts that are floating around. There is a significant possibility for people to unknowingly disregard/willingly overlook this important fact.
How many people do really dig deep and read the reports in detail (in this case it is even stated first in the exec. summary though).

Keep posting as I enjoy reading your statements across this forum a lot.

mate, whatever comes out of LO's mouth is a distortion of fact. he used the URF of the fa-18 to the f-16 price given, a blind man can see they are not the same unit of measure, also the fa-18 URF is different to the f-35 urf because the fa-18 has gov provided equip added in total flyaway, where the f-35 doesn't
Perhaps if you read the SAR ou will find some clarity
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/F-35Dec11FinalSAR-3-29-2012.pdf
page 62 and 65
TY $M
The Program Acquisition Unit Cost (PAUC) inc. engine = $161 M
The Procurement Unit Cost (APUC) inc. engine = $137.4 M
BY2012
The Program Acquisition Unit Cost (PAUC) inc. engine = $134.5 M
The Procurement Unit Cost (APUC) inc. engine = $109.1 M

page 61 and 64
Average F-35A Unit Recurring Flyaway (URF) Cost inc. engine = $78.7 M
Average F-35B Unit Recurring Flyaway (URF) Cost inc. engine = $106.5 M
Average F-35C Unit Recurring Flyaway (URF) Cost inc. engine = $87 M
 
Wow, the trolls are out in force. Did GTX call for fire support?

What GTX wrote was:

As a comparison, the URF of the latest F-16 model is supposedly around the $60 - $70M USD mark.

Emphasis added.

The USAF, obviously, is not buying F-16s, so there is no US-mil-standard published URF, but since the URF of the F/A-18 is under $56m, according to budget numbers, it would seem odd that the larger twin-engine aircraft would cost less.
 
well it looks like GTX may have messed up the f-16 urf, perhaps he can show us where the numbers are from.
I posted because of the new guy getting sucked into your stuff, I've been a member for a while and normally don't post
 
LowObservable said:
He is not required by you, moderators, or anyone else on this forum to answer that question.

Bilge. If GTX wants to give a sly wink and suggest he knows more than anyone else, he can either back it up or retract it.

If he wants his clearance status to remain a secret, he should not have mentioned it.

And if there are rules of engagement here, why are so many people keen to identify me as a known individual (a common challenge to which I maintain a firm NCND policy - does someone out there think that there's only one JSF critic who can write?) while hiding demurely behind their own pseudonyms?

"LowObservable" is perhaps the worst kept "secret" on all aviation forums. The irony is I recall you taking someone to task over on Ares for hiding behind a pseudonym.
 
I'm going to start addressing GTX's assertions - or "facts" as TT calls them - one by one, because they present an interesting picture of how the program is drinking its own bathwater. When insiders believe propaganda, the chances of fixing anything are slim.

The F-35 is not vastly different in cost from other programs, and much of that cost is forced on the program from outside.

It has already been demonstrated that GTX does not understand the procurement costs, so let's look at R&D.

The F-35 has always enjoyed full budgeted funding. According to the original program, all three versions should be operational, but we don't have an IOC date. This has gone along with a $20 billion plus overrun in R&D. If this is good performance, I would hate to see bad performance.

I would hazard a guess that F-35 R&D is around four times the R&D of the Super Hornet, including the Block 2/AESA. (Anyone want to step up and demolish this point, go ahead.) So yes, it's enormously expensive. And its cost and schedule performance is, today, the reason that the USAF's operational combat force is older than ever, and aging faster than ever (zero new production and not much potential to shrink and shed the oldest jets), a trend that will not even begin to slow until 2018-19.

The argument was that the effort would be repaid in lower production costs and operating costs - that commonality and high rates would stop the rise in unit costs. Production costs are over target by 80 per cent (according to a document signed by the SecDef) and even LockMart's hopeful estimate is that operating costs are 12 per cent more than the F-16 - 40 per cent higher than the 2010 estimate.

GTX goes into a long digression about learning curves, but (1) this is self-inflicted damage and (2) it's not as big of a hit as you might think. Yes, there will be a few more expensive low-rate airplanes because of production delays, but not that many in terms of a 2440-jet buy. In the long term (which is where all the APUCs &c in the SAR come from) most of the jets are still planned to be bought at high rate. And it has to be done, because nobody wants to buy tons of aircraft that are going to sit on the ground waiting for IOC.

The F-35's schedule problems are in part the result of budget cuts and other outside factors.

Has the F-35 taken longer to enter full service then originally desired? Well, once again possibly yes. Is this entirely the fault of the companies developing it? Once again I would have to say no. ..There have certainly been no major delays caused by aircraft technical issues.

Contrariwise - Most of the delays are driven by performance in SDD. I merely point to the weight crisis and SWAT in 2003-04; the failure to deliver test aircraft on schedule, resulting in the failure to meet the testing pace predicted in 2008-09; the restructuring decisions of 2011, following the Technical Baseline Review under Venlet; the Quick Look Review report of late 2011, resulting in more slippage to the schedule; and the current anticipated IOT&E phase in 2018-19. All these are technology-driven performance issues.

The LRIP delays are a symptom, not a cause. Production deliveries are still behind schedule, so why rush to order more?

Reference to the global financial crisis would be relevant if the program had not been fully funded. But it has.
 
Yawn...
0118-yawn.png
.

Keep trying Bill. It is still you who has consistently avoided answering questions or providing evidence or conveniently ignoring aspects that don't suit you. It is also you who seems to be refusing to seek out facts from the source...even if you are sceptical of that source ::)

At no time have I deliberately tried to mislead anyone. In fact, I have regularly stated that I acknowledge that some of my facts may be mistaken or inaccurate and have asked people to correct me where they can (mind you, such corrections do require some evidence, not just statements that "you're wrong"). I will openly admit that the table showing PAUC and APUC above does not have the engine data included. However as you well know, that table is straight from the SAR report (not created by me...sorry) and that the corresponding one for the F135 is incomplete. I apologise to other members here if that misled them - it was not my intention (anyway, the SAR report is available to view online if you want). All I have tried to do with my post (sorry, what was the description you used? "the long screed on cost that you use to distract attention") is to try to ensure everyone has a clear understanding of the entire issue since it can be confusing (though I suspect some people prefer the confusion ::) ). And btw, if you do re-read what I said, I have quite clearly stated that "these costs [are] higher than everyone would have liked". This is not being denied. I am simply trying to put this into some sort of context rather then resorting to implying that those responsible for the program are either somehow incompetent fools or worse, devious.

I do find it amusing how suddenly you appear to be an expert on production and manufacturing. I would really welcome your assistance here if you don't mind. My team, who is actually manufacturing parts for the F-35 (amongst other platforms), could really do with your expert assistance since we are finding it extremely difficult to hit some of the target prices we are given by our customers. Now I thought that we had some smart engineers and technicians here (some of which have 30+ yrs of experience), but obviously we don't know what we are doing...quite embarrassing really since it is after all such a simple matter :-[ . Now please remember that I asked first. Don't want you going and offering your expert skills to Lockheed Martin before I get the benefit of them. ;)

Oh and one final point. It has not been me who seems to find it necessary to constantly resort to name calling and the like. ::)
 
Thanks, GTX. Useful input. In return, I'll give you the most valuable advice as a JSF sub that you'll ever get. And I won't even charge my normal, exorbitant rates. (Veyrons don't tune themselves!)

You. Are. So. Boned.

That's assuming that like other subs, you've made big investments and trimmed margins to the bone in anticipation of that big 200-jets-a-year payday in the LMT briefs. Guess what? That's going to be deferred. Sine die, as they say in Latin, although "die" is the keyword for some of the subs.

Nobody much is casting doubt on JSF in DC right now. Indeed nobody is talking about it. They are however talking about budget and sequester. Romney's Ryan pick indicates that he's going to fight on budget issues, and the betting is that the budget hawks have the upper hand in the Republicans and the defense hawks are on the run.

So Romney's not necessarily going to win. Doesn't matter. If Romney-Ryan favors budget over everyone's pet defense programs (can't gut Grandma's benefits without taking a little nick out of Daddy Warbucks' free ride, can we?) then Obama gets a pass on "soft on defense".

Can we cut the defense budget and leave procurement alone? Can we cut procurement and spare JSF? No and Hellz To The No, respectively.

And Oz and Canada and the Noggies and the Cloggies are all now low-priority subs for FW, because the ROKs (and any other FMS) have LMT by the short and curlies. "Best value" is a nice squishy concept, and can easily mean "higher price, but if it keeps country X in the program..." You guys are like African-Americans in the Democrat party - so deeply committed that you have no power, because they know you have made it too hard for yourselves to bolt.

Oh, and the reason you're being squeezed so hard is that LMT needs to make LRIP 6 look good in anticipation of the defense apocalypse. So dig in one more time, subs, eat another year of losses... you'll make it all back someday when we strike gold and reach Nirvana!

One more free piece of advice: Die bravely, like men.
 
LowObservable said:
Thanks, GTX. Useful input. In return, I'll give you the most valuable advice as a JSF sub that you'll ever get. And I won't even charge my normal, exorbitant rates. (Veyrons don't tune themselves!)

You. Are. So. Boned.

That's assuming that like other subs, you've made big investments and trimmed margins to the bone in anticipation of that big 200-jets-a-year payday in the LMT briefs. Guess what? That's going to be deferred. Sine die, as they say in Latin, although "die" is the keyword for some of the subs.

Nobody much is casting doubt on JSF in DC right now. Indeed nobody is talking about it. They are however talking about budget and sequester. Romney's Ryan pick indicates that he's going to fight on budget issues, and the betting is that the budget hawks have the upper hand in the Republicans and the defense hawks are on the run.

So Romney's not necessarily going to win. Doesn't matter. If Romney-Ryan favors budget over everyone's pet defense programs (can't gut Grandma's benefits without taking a little nick out of Daddy Warbucks' free ride, can we?) then Obama gets a pass on "soft on defense".

Can we cut the defense budget and leave procurement alone? Can we cut procurement and spare JSF? No and Hellz To The No, respectively.

And Oz and Canada and the Noggies and the Cloggies are all now low-priority subs for FW, because the ROKs (and any other FMS) have LMT by the short and curlies. "Best value" is a nice squishy concept, and can easily mean "higher price, but if it keeps country X in the program..." You guys are like African-Americans in the Democrat party - so deeply committed that you have no power, because they know you have made it too hard for yourselves to bolt.

Oh, and the reason you're being squeezed so hard is that LMT needs to make LRIP 6 look good in anticipation of the defense apocalypse. So dig in one more time, subs, eat another year of losses... you'll make it all back someday when we strike gold and reach Nirvana!

One more free piece of advice: Die bravely, like men.

Political and Racist. impressive.

You also seemed to have expanded your dislike for the F-35 into a scorched earth policy. Not just enough to cancel a badly needed aircraft that whole nations are depending on, and tens of thousands of jobs lost, you seem to be rooting for all associated with it to suffer.

I like that your need to be right has combined with this special kind of bitterness.
 
The tragedy is that F-35 is badly needed. It will get procured, because there is no alternative and we're committed. It also won't be purchased nowhere near the numbers that are needed because it's not the affordable fighter it was promised to be. I am just stating the mathematical fact that for a given amount of money, the number of airplanes you get is inversely proportional to their cost (it's worse than that, in reality).


So when the taxpayers (I think it's the guys LM is talking about in " We never forget who we are working for", unless it's the shareholders) hold their side of the bargain (i.e., pay up), and are not given what they were promised, well, bitterness is probably the mildest of emotions that are warranted. Barging on FW with tar and feathers is second.
 
AeroFranz said:
The tragedy is that F-35 is badly needed. It will get procured, because there is no alternative and we're committed. It also won't be purchased nowhere near the numbers that are needed because it's not the affordable fighter it was promised to be. I am just stating the mathematical fact that for a given amount of money, the number of airplanes you get is inversely proportional to their cost (it's worse than that, in reality).

I think the numbers will still be there but it'll be procured over a hell of a lot longer than anybody imagined. Just look at the current trend. (F-15 and F-16 still in production and still competitive with other non-stealth fighters for example.)
 
The full 2400-aircraft buy is pretty much a fiction anyway. Even as things stand today, the Congresscritters who will buy the last batch are, today, working as Capitol Hill interns, making their first statehouse runs or helping the big policy wonks with research.

There's good news and bad news about production rates.

The good news is that the impact of rate on aircraft production cost is much smaller than a lot of people think. The SH is about the same size as the F-35A. (The JSF has EOTS built in; the SH has folding wings and a lot of them are two-seaters. Close to a wash.) It costs less than the F-35A - off a 40/year line versus 130+FMS assumed in the F-35 plan.

To take another example - Boeing's been selling C-17s in FMS at a rate of 15 jets or less a year. Unique aircraft, only aircraft in that location, and (since 2005) sole user of the PW2000 engine.

Why is this so? Unless I have totally forgotten something obvious, the highest-rate aircraft production lines in the world today are the A320 and 737 family lines, which are at or approaching numbers close to 500 per year. They are outliers - the 787 and 777 are in the 100-120 range.

Rolls-Royce sells 3500 cars a year. Leading compact car models sell a quarter-million.

Airplanes are not mass-production.

Remember the "factory of the future" ideas of the 1980s, full of 6DOF robots? There is a lot of cool automation out there in aircraft manufacture - particularly high-speed machining and automated drilling and fastening, but the big differentiators are how efficiently the people are allowed to work, and how well you manage your parts and supply chain.

So that's the good news.

One challenge for JSF - if rates start to descend - is that production appears to be capital-intensive with a lot of overhead. Of the major airframe partners, only BAE was truly noted for manufacturing expertise, and I recall noticing, early in the program, that LMT didn't seem to be making an intensive effort to see how (for example) the A320 or CFM56 lines ticked. Another (as noted by P&W) is that a lot of suppliers have borrowed money and bought hardware in anticipation of high rates.

Cutting rates and holding the line on costs should be possible, but it is going to be difficult.
 
AeroFranz said:
(I think it's the guys LM is talking about in " We never forget who we are working for", unless it's the shareholders)

Unlike Boeing who give aircraft away for free, don't own the US Navy, and were such good sports about losing the tanker contract. Not one lobbyist in their pocket, no sir. Boeing stock? no such thing! The only reason lockheed is in the cross-hairs is because they won the JSF contract. I can only imagine the kind of hate and discontent people would be spewing Boeings way had they won and tried to do the same thing that Lockheed is doing but with the inferior X-32

The other interesting little notion is if lockheed fails at what many here already called an impossible program, is their fault the game is rigged and they lost? I would hope the tar and feathers would be reserved for the pentagon and DC decision makers. Always more fun to kill messengers though. How dare they try and make it work! All the aerospace companies should have simply turned their noses up and refused to have anything to do with the JSF. Who needs work in this post-cold war environment anyway?

LowObservable said:
Airplanes are not mass-production.

:eek:

Then gives examples of aircraft that are built at a rate of 500 per year. ;)
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
Unlike Boeing who give aircraft away for free, don't own the US Navy, and were such good sports about losing the tanker contract. Not one lobbyist in their pocket, no sir. Boeing stock? no such thing! The only reason lockheed is in the cross-hairs is because they won the JSF contract. I can only imagine the kind of hate and discontent people would be spewing Boeings way had they won and tried to do the same thing that Lockheed is doing but with the inferior X-32


yes, i would be pissed at Boeing too if a similar situation had developed.



TaiidanTomcat said:
The other interesting little notion is if lockheed fails at what many here already called an impossible program, is their fault the game is rigged and they lost? I would hope the tar and feathers would be reserved for the pentagon and DC decision makers. Always more fun to kill messengers though. How dare they try and make it work! All the aerospace companies should have simply turned their noses up and refused to have anything to do with the JSF. Who needs work in this post-cold war environment anyway?


It takes two to tango (government and manufacturer). We're never getting out of the unrealistic requirement followed by predictably non-compliant offering by just accepting the staus quo. It seems a bit naive or misguided, at least from my point of view, for a manufacturer to just say "I'm agreeing to these terms even though I know I've only got a 10% chance of fulfilling the terms of this contract".
 

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