TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[0cu0]

Alright, than your opinion is that Turkey has not done it already and cannot do it in the time left.
My money is on the Turkish F110-GE-132 clone by 2030.

 

[Waterballoon]

Alright, than your opinion is that Turkey has not done it already and cannot do it in the time left.
My money is on the Turkish F110-GE-132 clone by 2030.

No clone whatsoever.

It'll be even better but will progress in steps.

The first iteration will be all or mostly metal, non TVC, 36000lbf of thrust, with all blisk compressors with forward swept blade tips to scoop up as much air as possible.

Composite duct parts, TVC system, CMC and MMC are for later iterations bumping the thrust to 38000lbf and then to 40000lbf. All of these technologies are being researched currently through collaborations with universities and R&D projects funded by institutions such as SSB.

Many times the 17 year long EJ200 development trajectory (and for that matter the WS-15 as well) has been rejected by the CEO of TEI and the previous director of SSB. He said it multiple times it won't take that long while it won't be as short as what the previous head of TAI was pushing for (5 years!)

From an interview with the previous director of SSB in May '23:

- The engine program in terms of fielding a national engine for MMU, how far away is that? Is it realistic? Can it be done?

It is realistic but in terms of timeline it is of course... should be reasonable. We don't claim that we can have an indigenous engine in a couple of years, it will take some years we know very well experienced jet manufacturers, even if they had started it would take about 8 or 10 or 12 years so we have also targeted that kind of duration and we had already started design work and also some materials capabilities build up so within a couple of years or maybe more maybe several years but certainly not 10, much less than that.

- So much sooner than perhaps the standard jetengine...

Yes, it should be.

link

 

[Trident]

If you think deleting 3 stages from the HPC and deleting one turbine stage is still making it a 'quite similar' engine to the F110, then I got a bridge to sell you.

It's been done before (AL-31FM3). In fact, Salyut is an entity in a remarkably similar position to TUSAS/Turkey: they had significant experience manufacturing and assembling the base engine, as well as a certain amount of design competence from other projects. But they didn't have all the pieces and overall IP was owned by another company (Saturn, in this case). There are worse approaches to take under the circumstances, and the indigenous TS1400 turboshaft is certainly a dead ringer in concept for the LHTEC T800 it is designed to replace.

Whether that still qualifies as 'similar' is a matter of perspective and intent, I guess. Are you trying to downplay the scale of investment required (Salyut), or parade your skills (TUSAS)?

 

[helmutkohl]

a reminder everyone, this is the thread about TAI KAAN. after several rounds of deleted posts by multiple mods, if any more off topic conversations continue, we will start escalating measures to ensure that posts remain on topic.
No ifs and buts.

 

[Waterballoon]

I wonder why people would be so disingenuous to compare '90s cutting edge turbine technology consisting of SX materials, blisks and TBC to contemporary cutting edge variable cycle technology, blings and CMC HPT blades? The Turks are aiming for the 1st and not the latter.

We are talking about a country which put 4 turbofan engined aircraft in the air within the span of 14 months, 3 of which are (V)LO, 3 of which are supersonic capable and 2 of which are unmanned.

It is the same country who put their first turboshaft engine in the air from scratch, 25% to 33% faster than their modern counterparts while a pandemic was ravaging supplylines globally and locally.



They are among the first, if not the first as claimed below to print Ni superalloy turbine blades as well (turbowizardry indeed)




They are providing more than 1000 blisk parts every year for some of the most prolific turbofan engines in the world...



...and are able to indigenously design blisks with advanced shaping. Take note of the forwards swept blade tips. These are the technologies that enable a pressure ratio of 5 for a 3 stage fan. A 3 LPC/6 HPC stage TF36000 could reach an OPR of at least 35 easily, should there be a need.



They are developing and casting themselves various alloys for turbine engines from the Incos to the CMSXs...




...which they are also mining themselves



And they are funding two CMC and one MMC project, SİCİM (development of SiC fiber and SiC Matrix Composite), AMETİST (development of laser metal powder melting process for Metal Matrix Composite materials) and ÖTEKTİK (development of high temperature Eutectic Oxide Ceramic Matrix Composites).




There is more (like indigenous turbine engine design software etc.) but this should be enough to show what the Turks are capable enough. I'll try to keep it updated as much as possible.

And there is always some sturdy Soviet legacy Ivchenko-Progress support from the sides to make sure things don't go too much in the "fragile boutique" direction.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Have you considered posting this in a topic about Turkish jet engine development?
It would be better there than here.

 

[Radonislav]

That's not correct

 

[Waterballoon]

Have you considered posting this in a topic about Turkish jet engine development?
It would be better there than here.

Didn't know there was a thread on Turkish propulsion systems my apologies.

Consider it done. You want me to delete my post in this thread then?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

What would be the configuration of the TAI KAAN Engine?
TAI KAAN is to a certain extent bound/limited by the size of the F-110, as it will fly at least as Block 0 and 1.
I assume that the design will be based on the F-110, with modern approaches in the first revision as an Engine, it will probably be designed more moderately as an engine, but with fewer mechanically moving parts than F-110 and a little more thrust through better and modern design e.g. my example 6-8 years development time would be realistic if TUSAS, TEI and Co have been working on it since 2018 and the design does not differ significantly from the F-110.

For example:

It is just one example

 

[Waterballoon]

What would be the configuration of the TAI KAAM Engine?
TAI KAAN is to a certain extent bound/limited by the size of the F-110, as it will fly at least as Block 0 and 1.
I assume that the design will be based on the F-110, with modern approaches in the first revision as an Engine, it will probably be designed more moderately as an engine, but with fewer mechanically moving parts than F-110 and a little more thrust through better and modern design e.g. my example 6-8 years development time would be realistic if TUSAS, TEI and Co have been working on it since 2018 and the design does not differ significantly from the F-110.

For example:
View attachment 756911

4 turbine stages? Congratz, you designed the worlds first Turbofanshaft

Unless you are trying to design an engine for a VTOL like the F-35B with a liftfan, even then 3 turbine stages should be enough.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

4 turbine stages? Congratz, you designed the worlds first Turbofanshaft

Unless you are trying to design an engine for a VTOL like the F-35B with a liftfan, even then 3 turbine stages should be enough.

Why? I am not an expert, so I say this with great reservation?
The 1 low and 1 high pressure turbine of the F-110 has the disadvantage that the pressure is not evenly distributed and the wear is correspondingly higher.
A 2-stage system for high and low pressure turbines with a pressure ratio of 25:1 or 30:1 would allow for a better overall load and longer engine life.
It also eliminates one main fan to 2 and one compressor to 8 instead of 9, making the engine easier and cheaper to maintain. The weight will also be less than the F-110
But you have to take into account that the energy recovery would be slightly lower compared to the F-110, but this could be further compensated by the more modern approach and design optimization.
Finally, it would be 8-10% more powerful than the F-110 129.

Again I say this with great reservation, I am neither an engine engineer nor a pilot.

 

[Combat-Master]

Anyone like patents?

 

[Waterballoon]

Why? I am not an expert, so I say this with great reservation?
The 1 low and 1 high pressure turbine of the F-110 has the disadvantage that the pressure is not evenly distributed and the wear is correspondingly higher.
A 2-stage system for high and low pressure turbines with a pressure ratio of 25:1 or 30:1 would allow for a better overall load and longer engine life.
It also eliminates one main fan to 2 and one compressor to 8 instead of 9, making the engine easier and cheaper to maintain. The weight will also be less than the F-110
But you have to take into account that the energy recovery would be slightly lower compared to the F-110, but this could be further compensated by the more modern approach and design optimization.
Finally, it would be 8-10% more powerful than the F-110 129.

Again I say this with great reservation, I am neither an engine engineer nor a pilot.

You are trying too hard. TRMotor has already shared images of the engine. It has a 3-6-2 configuration. Actually a 3-6.5-2 because there is a small stage that pushes 'cool' air into the HPT stage.

Top old image, bottom newer image with enhanced sharpness