TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[Combat-Master]

So how is 6-7 years an "ambitious but fair" timeline? Domestic development and production of military spec engines is arguably one of the most difficult and costly things to master.

The TF35000 program to develop a domestic engine for KAAN started in 2017, it's been 8 years, it'll be another 6-7 years until the engine is fully developed. Overall the engine development programme is 15 years - if what the GM is saying comes to fruition.

The context and knowing the history of the project is important.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Indonesia really could benefit from Kaan over the other options, especially if Kaan has a nice range (or can get some nice big 2400L stealthy external fuel tanks)

 

[NMaude]

Indonesia really could benefit from Kaan over the other options, especially if Kaan has a nice range (or can get some nice big 2400L stealthy external fuel tanks)

If Indonesia had the Kaan in service I wonder how much heartburn that would cause the PLA?

 

[Scott Kenny]

If Indonesia had the Kaan in service I wonder how much heartburn that would cause the PLA?

Hopefully lots.

 

[Waterballoon]

TRmotor got established in 2017 but the actual detailed work on the engine started in 2023 after various (conceptual) designs from both domestic and foreign companies competed against each other. TEI and TRMotor design won against a foreign company likely to be Ivchenko Progress.

2025+6/7 years equals 2031-2032. In that case the engine development will take just 8-9 years to be "fully developed" starting from 2023.
But what does the CEO define under "fully develop"? I hope it means ready for serial production and not just ready to be flight tested or God forbid, ready to be fired up.

The problem for the Turks is not so much design as it is materials as stated by Demir. Indigenization of the entire chain of various alloys is being worked on from mining, to processing to casting and forging.

Design is easy these days when one has a solid grasp of the fundamentals of what one is designing. Simulation software and supercomputers can churn out lots of data in a short time.

And do not forget the Turkish turbomachinery sector is tied to the Western one and lots of shoulder have been rubbed in the last 3-4 decades.

 

[Waterballoon]

If Indonesia had the Kaan in service I wonder how much heartburn that would cause the PLA?

By the time Kaan flies in Indonesian skies, the J-36 and J-50 will be produced in numbers greater than the Kaan. No need for such fanboi-ism pls.

 

[Nx4eu]

I think 2018 was the test flight date for the AL-51 and supposedly it will be on the Su-57's that will be produced this year which in total is a time span of 7 years, in other words 6-7 years seems feasible for the KAAN

It took NPO Saturn, a firm with extensive history designing and deploying fighter class turbofan engines at the minimum 7 years from test flight to service, and nearly 2 decades from initial conception to service. While the infantile Turkish turbofan industry which has only indigenously designed a 6,000 lb class turbofan engine that ran it's first test in 2024, wants to complete a heavy afterburning turbofan engine with 29,000 lb's of thrust in 6-7 years?

Call me crazy, but that sounds a little bit too unrealistic.

 

[snne]

6-7 years seems rather ambitious

From this point onwards, though. The engine development is shrouded in secrecy more than the aircraft development ever was.

We don’t quite know when they started working on the engine. We believe that it has to have started around 2018—which, justifiably, still makes it an ambitious timeline to a lesser degree, but they did manage to achieve most of their ambitions in time so far.

In the case of a major delay, my only criticism would be why they started working on it so late, when they could have developed it alongside the aircraft design as it matured.

 

[snne]

Indonesia really could benefit from Kaan over the other options, especially if Kaan has a nice range (or can get some nice big 2400L stealthy external fuel tanks)

From an old presentation at Anatolian Eagle '21: (there are lots of changes but it is still useful)

 

[NMaude]

By the time Kaan flies in Indonesian skies, the J-36 and J-50 will be produced in numbers greater than the Kaan.

I was speculating if it were available now.

No need for such fanboi-ism pls.

I'm not a Kaan fanboy and I'm only mildly interested in it.

 

[Nx4eu]

Unless we get clear signs that the engine has taken test flights by this year or next year, entering service by 2032 will be a pipe dream. But I'm unaware of the secrecy of Turkish defense products as they often are announced alongside videos with crappy music. You can call me pessimistic but unless they are squeaky clean, a brand new jet engine from an inexperienced firm will definitely run into some teething issues.

 

[bennyp]

If there is a will to do it, it will be done, and if there is capability behind the will, it gets done even faster. How many times will we need to "be surprised" that a "lesser nation" demonstrated "remarkable progress" before we learn the lesson that acting dismissively towards disagreeable prospects only hurts ourselves?

 

[Waterballoon]

It took NPO Saturn, a firm with extensive history designing and deploying fighter class turbofan engines at the minimum 7 years from test flight to service, and nearly 2 decades from initial conception to service. While the infantile Turkish turbofan industry which has only indigenously designed a 6,000 lb class turbofan engine that ran it's first test in 2024, wants to complete a heavy afterburning turbofan engine with 29,000 lb's of thrust in 6-7 years?

Call me crazy, but that sounds a little bit too unrealistic.

Unless we get clear signs that the engine has taken test flights by this year or next year, entering service by 2032 will be a pipe dream. But I'm unaware of the secrecy of Turkish defense products as they often are announced alongside videos with crappy music. You can call me pessimistic but unless they are squeaky clean, a brand new jet engine from an inexperienced firm will definitely run into some teething issues.

See: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...cks-and-propulsion-projects.34734/post-748493

And as always, time will tell.

 

[Null]

Let's wait and see ... they have to prove their IMO overambitious claims, not we have to explain them again why it is unlikely.

And even more flight test is only the last part of the development, so since the Turkish side so far has nothing built and even bench tested yet that is at least close to something that can be tested in flight, it is IMO totally unrealistic. But let's wait.

Apologies I completely forgot about the bench test

 

[Nx4eu]

If there is a will to do it, it will be done, and if there is capability behind the will, it gets done even faster. How many times will we need to "be surprised" that a "lesser nation" demonstrated "remarkable progress" before we learn the lesson that acting dismissively towards disagreeable prospects only hurts ourselves?

Nobody said it can't be done, it's just that timelines are often hugely optimistic. How many of these "lesser nations" have successfully designed and deployed indigenous fighter class turbofan jet engines? Even the major nations have needed huge time and monetary commitments to successfully develop such things. You literally can't compare development timelines of anything else to the insurmountable challenge of engine creation. Sure many lesser nations have quickly designed many other weapon systems faster and can rival systems of major powers, however those technologies aren't as safely guarded nor as difficult to build as jet engines. I would be comparing fighter jet engines to semiconductors in terms of difficulty to produce, not other military systems and subsystems.

 

[Waterballoon]

Nobody said it can't be done, it's just that timelines are often hugely optimistic. How many of these "lesser nations" have successfully designed and deployed indigenous fighter class turbofan jet engines? Even the major nations have needed huge time and monetary commitments to successfully develop such things. You literally can't compare development timelines of anything else to the insurmountable challenge of engine creation. Sure many lesser nations have quickly designed many other weapon systems faster and can rival systems of major powers, however those technologies aren't as safely guarded nor as difficult to build as jet engines. I would be comparing fighter jet engines to semiconductors in terms of difficulty to produce, not other military systems and subsystems.

Fighter engines are materials, materials and materials first. Then design.

The Turks got it covered.