TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[Deino]

The 21x14x6m specs for the Kaan where most likely either carelessness or counterintel which I fell for, just like the Hurjets initial 35m2 wing area which was more obvious to me to be BS.

And the MTOW of 60.000lbs for Kaan is still BS for now and should be discarded. MTOW should be 75.000lbs with the indigenous engines.

So slowly you are questioning "official" data?
That indeed too looks like BS again, raising the question how much of what was posted here already and presented as "it's from official sources" but rated critically by others (like me for what we always get a lot of hate) is in fact BS?

... and still you think 75.000lbs with the indigenous engines (= 34,0t) are more reasonable or even realistic?

 

[Waterballoon]

So slowly you are questioning "official" data?
That indeed too looks like BS again, raising the question how much of what was posted here already and presented as "it's from official sources" but rated critically by others (like me for what we always get a lot of hate) is in fact BS?

I've to correct myself. It seems the official figures given by TAI doesn't correspond with the actual size of the prototype. According to various sources I've gathered the Kaan has a length of 20,2 meters, a span width of 13,32 meters and a corresponding wing area of 70 square meters.

The length between the nozzles and radar array is now 16 meters with a theoretical empty weight of 16,8-17 tons which results in a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1,55 and a wing loading of 242 kg per square meters.

Sorry for all those who I've given a hard time.

... and still you think 75.000lbs with the indigenous engines (= 34,0t) are more reasonable or even realistic?

What's your estimate then?

 

[Dolgoth Sepk]

What's your estimate then?

You can't believe official data only when it is in your favor.
Or change the data on the airshow display board according to your preferences?

 

[Waterballoon]

You can't believe official data only when it is in your favor.
Or change the data on the airshow display board according to your preferences?

The official specs of Kaan changed from 19m*12m to 21*14m to 20.3*13.4m

My latest measurements (20.2*13.33m) got close to the latest official dimensions and corroborated by @Radonislav (who knows a bit more than he is willing to say)

When it comes to official MTOW, it used be be 60k lbs, then >60klbs to 60k lbs back again. If you think a stealth fighter with IWB with the same size of other twin engine heavy fighters weighs a whopping 15klbs-20klbs less than its counterparts, I got a bridge to sell you

A MTOW of 70-80k lbs is most likely, so I took the figure in between, 75.000 lbs


I know it's difficult to keep track of it all so if you don't follow the progress daily, it's best to just lurk

 

[Dolgoth Sepk]

The official specs of Kaan changed from 19m*12m to 21*14m to 20.3*13.4m

I know it's difficult to keep track of it all so if you don't follow the progress daily, it's best to just lurk

You should communicate with the staff of TAI and ask them to change the technical parameters instead of just "pondering" in the forum.

 

[snne]

You should communicate with the staff of TAI and ask them to change the technical parameters instead of just "pondering" in the forum.

You both have a point. The Turkish military-industrial complex is infamous within Turkish MilTwitter for its poor marketing and public relations, and TAI is one of the worst in this regard.

He's right that Kaan's dimensions have changed twice so far (three times if you count the PDR). While the updated specs for Hürjet are for its second prototype, Kaan's dimensions are based on the P0/GTU-0, as evidenced by numerous open-source investigations.

The current given MTOW hasn’t changed compared to the previous one from the PDR. While advanced tooling and manufacturing can play a significant role in decreasing weight, the majority of us believe that Kaan's empty weight and MTOW that are given to us are outdated and that they should in truth align more closely with Kaan's in-class equivalents (such as the J-20, F-22, and Su-57)...


(machine translation, cc for the original: @orko_8 /siyah gri beyaz)

 

[Dolgoth Sepk]

You both have a point. The Turkish military-industrial complex is infamous within Turkish MilTwitter for its poor marketing and public relations, and TAI is one of the worst in this regard.

He's right that Kaan's dimensions have changed twice so far (three times if you count the PDR). While the updated specs for Hürjet are for its second prototype, Kaan's dimensions are based on the P0/GTU-0, as evidenced by numerous open-source investigations.

Before TAI manufactures P1, there is no point in insisting that his own estimated data is more appropriate than TAI's data. This is my opinion.

 

[snne]

Before TAI manufactures P1, there is no point in insisting that his own estimated data is more appropriate than TAI's data. This is my opinion.

He's saying that TAI's social media and website managers hadn't updated the dimensions and specs until very recently, not that the people who designed the plane are somehow wrong.

 

[Dolgoth Sepk]

He's saying that TAI's social media and website managers hadn't updated the dimensions and specs until very recently, not that the people who designed the plane are somehow wrong.

Ok, the data from TAI isn't enough to make him happy.

 

[Deino]

What's your estimate then?

In fact I don't have any ... as long as we haven't seen P1 and can identify how much it differs to P0, as long as the new indigenous engines is not ready and at best some fancy PowerPoint-sheets, anything - even from TAI - is useless!

It is as useless like similar fancy illustrations and projections from Indians and HAL, the Tejas Mk.2 will finally be "whatever" and "when there's finally a new indigenous engine also for the AMCA, THEN ..." ...

Let's wait until then.

 

[Waterballoon]

There's a significant change in height between the P0 and P1, perhaps the reduction means the vertical slabs have shifted to the tail section

I know placement of twin tails can potentially have large drag implication, also could interfere with vortex flow off the forebody. Anyone can theorize what possibly be reason why the tails move from positions that enclose the engines from the side to on top of the engine?

The vertical stabs are still on top for P1

 

[snne]

Kaan's IRST and EOSS, or at least downgraded versions of them (as far as we can guess), are set to start airborne tests on UAVs.

Aselsan CEO Ahmet Akyol confirmed that the tests for its TOYGUN and KARAT products would take place on a UAV platform as efforts continue to progress its “challenging” technology roadmap into 2025 and 2026.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1894115189668098218

View: https://x.com/ShephardNews/status/1894115189668098218?t=E_LteDFh3eL2NbVTxJg35g&s=19

 

[siegecrossbow]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1894115189668098218

View: https://x.com/ShephardNews/status/1894115189668098218?t=E_LteDFh3eL2NbVTxJg35g&s=19

The chin mounted sensor is shown in the artwork? Looks like it has all around coverage. I wonder if it could be used simultaneously with the nose mounted sensor to provide all around battlefield awareness. With AI decision making software integrated it could provide pilot feedback on whether to engage aerial or ground based targets first.

 

[Deino]

Hmm? Allegedly a scaled-technology demonstrator for Ka'an was tested.

 

[snne]

Hmm? Allegedly a scaled-technology demonstrator for Ka'an was tested.

View attachment 763510
View attachment 763511

Just something to keep the Pakistan office busy and to have something to show to local officials.

TAI headquarters in Ankara probably flew a couple of these even before the GTU-0 was assembled.

I also believe it is necessary to share @JamD's remarks, as he is an engineer in the industry. (I also suspect that he works at TA Pakistan or at least has colleagues working there.)

 

[siegecrossbow]

Just something to keep the Pakistan office busy and to have something to show to local officials.

TAI headquarters in Ankara probably flew a couple of these even before the GTU-0 was assembled.

I also believe it is necessary to share @JamD's remarks, as he is an engineer in the industry. (I also suspect that he works at TA Pakistan or at least has colleagues working there.)

View attachment 763518
View attachment 763519View attachment 763520View attachment 763521
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Yeah. My opinion as well. Prototype of Kaan is much further along when you look at amount of details like sawtooth in weaponsbay/panels. They won’t risk flying a prototype unless they’ve had verification of the basic aerodynamics earlier.

 

[Combat-Master]

TAI updated the specs again
--

• Dimensions, Weight and Performance​

  • Wing Span : 13.4 m (44 ft)
  • Wing Area : 71.6 m² (771 ft²)
  • Length : 20.3 m (66 ft)
  • Height : 5 m (16 ft)
  • MTOW : 34,750 kg (76,500 lb)
  • Thrust : 2 x 13,150 kgf (2 x 29,000 lb)
  • Maximum Speed : 1.8 Mach (@ 40,000 ft)
  • Service Ceiling : 16,764 m (55,000 ft)
  • Positive / Negative G Limit: +9 / -3.5 G

--

 

[Lacy]

TAI updated the specs again
--

• Dimensions, Weight and Performance​

  • Wing Span : 13.4 m (44 ft)
  • Wing Area : 71.6 m² (771 ft²)
  • Length : 20.3 m (66 ft)
  • Height : 5 m (16 ft)
  • MTOW : 34,750 kg (76,500 lb)
  • Thrust : 2 x 13,150 kgf (2 x 29,000 lb)
  • Maximum Speed : 1.8 Mach (@ 40,000 ft)
  • Service Ceiling : 16,764 m (55,000 ft)
  • Positive / Negative G Limit: +9 / -3.5 G

--

View attachment 764950

the only difference i noticed is the MTOW went from 60k lb to 76.500lb, which is a huge difference.

 

[Geo]

the only difference i noticed is the MTOW went from 60k lb to 76.500lb, which is a huge difference.

Which is undoubtedly closer to reality. Much more honest.

 

[Waterballoon]

And the MTOW of 60.000lbs for Kaan is still BS for now and should be discarded. MTOW should be 75.000lbs with the indigenous engines.

... and still you think 75.000lbs with the indigenous engines (= 34,0t) are more reasonable or even realistic?

A MTOW of 70-80k lbs is most likely, so I took the figure in between, 75.000 lbs

I got very close. Nice to be vindicated again. Caveat, with indigenous engines it could bump the MTOW closer to 80.000lbs or even beyond that.

The length between the nozzles and radar array is now 16 meters with a theoretical empty weight of 16,8-17 tons which results in a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1,55 and a wing loading of 242 kg per square meters.

For modern fighter aircraft, empty weight is typically half the MTOW. 17375 kg empty weight for Kaan, +/- 750kg.

 

[Shaman Harris]

I got very close. Nice to be vindicated again. Caveat, with indigenous engines it could bump the MTOW closer to 80.000lbs or even beyond that.



For modern fighter aircraft, empty weight is typically half the MTOW. 17375 kg empty weight for Kaan, +/- 750kg.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source at all, no discussions of MTOW

Talk:TAI TF Kaan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Shaman Harris]

Wonder if the top speed is limited by engines or air frame

 

[snne]

I got very close. Nice to be vindicated again. Caveat, with indigenous engines it could bump the MTOW closer to 80.000lbs or even beyond that.



For modern fighter aircraft, empty weight is typically half the MTOW. 17375 kg empty weight for Kaan, +/- 750kg.

The given specs of the GTU-0/P0 suggest that it is capable of limited supercruise at M1.2-1.4 with 0.76-1.06 TWR.

If I remember correctly, the goal is for the production aircraft to achieve M1.5 supercruise.

 

[Combat-Master]

KAAN (outdated model) that Aselsan showcases, Aselsan to develop AESA radar, R/F links for KAAN.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

That should be AESA Multi-Aperture Radar System (MARS) or?

 

[Maro.Kyo]

the only difference i noticed is the MTOW went from 60k lb to 76.500lb, which is a huge difference.

MTOW of 60,000 lbs for a fighter with twin F110 never made sense to begin with

 

[snne]

KAAN (outdated model) that Aselsan showcases, Aselsan to develop AESA radar, R/F links for KAAN.
View attachment 765579

This would have been newsworthy back in 2018, but it seems a bit late to reheat this photo now, don't you think?

 

[Combat-Master]

Photo hasn't been shared before and remains significant. Timeliness isn't the only measure of relevance—important images can surface anytime, especially if they offer new context or insight.
Also image is from last year, outdated KAAN models are still used for displays, or as gifts by officials.

Thanks for your input though, thought you'd actually had updated the thread with something significant, instead your usual trying to take ownership what's posted in these threads. lmao..

 

[Combat-Master]

That should be AESA Multi-Aperture Radar System (MARS) or?

Should be Aselsan BURFIS FCR.


Not sure what's going on with the leading edges of the model which are also painted orange.

 

[Waterballoon]

Should be Aselsan BURFIS FCR.
View attachment 765653

Not sure what's going on with the leading edges of the model which are also painted orange.

I believe this radar is more of a technology demonstrator than a prototype for a production model radar. Same was done for the F-16 radar which they displayed a demonstrator using brick modules some years ago which is different from the tile arrangement on the Murad 100 series.

Those LE could be EW or an Su-57 style L-band radar.

 

[Combat-Master]

I believe this radar is more of a technology demonstrator than a prototype for a production model radar. Same was done for the F-16 radar which they displayed a demonstrator using brick modules some years ago which is different from the tile arrangement on the Murad 100 series.

Those LE could be EW or an Su-57 style L-band radar.

Closer image but LQ

 

[snne]

Here’s a good summary of what’s to come in the Kaan program by GM Mehmet Demiroglu, including future developments and milestones.

 

[Combat-Master]

Indonesian President Prabowo Subianto (currently on a state visit to Turkey) :

"Indonesia wants to take part in the 5th generation KAAN national combat aircraft project and also in the submarine project. We want to take part together with the Turkish defense industry and we want to benefit from this."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1910361531151265894

View: https://x.com/Faruksarioglu34/status/1910361531151265894

 

[snne]

Indonesian President Prabowo Subianto (currently on a state visit to Turkey) :

"Indonesia wants to take part in the 5th generation KAAN national combat aircraft project and also in the submarine project. We want to take part together with the Turkish defense industry and we want to benefit from this."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1910361531151265894

View: https://x.com/Faruksarioglu34/status/1910361531151265894

First pay your damn contribution to the Boramae Program...

 

[Geo]

First pay your damn contribution to the Boramae Program...

Oh oh, of course. Just a moment of patience please. First we need to save up for Su-35SEs, F-15IDs and of course Rafales. No one will be left behind.

 

[stealthflanker]

As long as it's not law binding.. our pres can pull things out of his ass. Even MoU is NOT a law binding agreement.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Here’s a good summary of what’s to come in the Kaan program by GM Mehmet Demiroglu, including future developments and milestones.

So the old definition of block 10 has been split into two blocks of block 10 and 20 now? and 6 prototypes in total. Quite some notable changes to the plan if we consider what we were told some years ago. I feel they are really quick in reflecting what they've learnt in terms of programme management and development processes, good for them.

 

[EmoBirb]

Here’s a good summary of what’s to come in the Kaan program by GM Mehmet Demiroglu, including future developments and milestones.

View attachment 765788

6-7 years seems rather ambitious for a domestic engine fit for a large stealth fighter. For comparison, we just have to look at how long the development of the WS-15 and AL-51 took. Both developed by infinitely more capable nations with regards to their prowess and experience in the military aviation sector. Neither engine in frontline service to our knowledge in April 2025.

So how is 6-7 years an "ambitious but fair" timeline? Domestic development and production of military spec engines is arguably one of the most difficult and costly things to master.

 

[Null]

6-7 years seems rather ambitious for a domestic engine fit for a large stealth fighter. For comparison, we just have to look at how long the development of the WS-15 and AL-51 took. Both developed by infinitely more capable nations with regards to their prowess and experience in the military aviation sector. Neither engine in frontline service to our knowledge in April 2025.

I think 2018 was the test flight date for the AL-51 and supposedly it will be on the Su-57's that will be produced this year which in total is a time span of 7 years, in other words 6-7 years seems feasible for the KAAN

 

[Deino]

I think 2018 was the test flight date for the AL-51 and supposedly it will be on the Su-57's that will be produced this year which in total is a time span of 7 years, in other words 6-7 years seems feasible for the KAAN

Let's wait and see ... they have to prove their IMO overambitious claims, not we have to explain them again why it is unlikely.

And even more flight test is only the last part of the development, so since the Turkish side so far has nothing built and even bench tested yet that is at least close to something that can be tested in flight, it is IMO totally unrealistic. But let's wait.