TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

IC3M@N FX said:
I know it's a stupid question, but has the picture been confirmed to be genuine? The angle has been photographed is strange, as if someone had photographed a Video Photo or Videoclip from the Canvas again.

I think the photo as the second prototype is a fake because Erdogan's signature is in the same position as on the first prototype.
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Yeah, makes no sense to me either, especially when second prototype was still in early assembly process not so long ago, and probably still is.

December'2024
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Supposedly, this source is suppose to be good too lol..
 
Combat-Master said:
Apparently second prototype; looks like prototype 1 (tech demo) to me
View attachment 755892
https://twitter.com/x/status/1879137731596652575
View: https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1879137731596652575
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Second Kaan Prototype it is then, as the minister states in the video saying "this is the second Kaan, you (people at press event) are the first to see it"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1879137810776756319
View: https://x.com/gdhdefence/status/1879137810776756319
 
That is absolutely the first prototype. They probably showed the wrong image at the press briefing. Hate me all you want, but I firmly believe these so-called "reporters" are just too afraid to tell the truth. "The all mighty Head of SSB has spoken! Who are we to doubt his judgment!"

Edit: Check these pictures from Milliyet Newspaper, published on December 8, 2024. This is %100 the GTU-0/P0

www.milliyet.com.tr

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www.milliyet.com.tr www.milliyet.com.tr
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I actually hope they lowered the cabin a little bit, like in the red highlighted area and it’s not just a different perspective on the first prototype.
That would be a step forward to make the fighter more eye pleasing (Less Angry-Bird vibe)
 
"Kaan's new brochure shows new dimensions of aircraft. According to brochure, the length has shortened by 0.7m, the wingspan by 0.6m and the height by 1m."
https://twitter.com/x/status/1879202535472566766
View: https://x.com/T_Nblty/status/1879202535472566766

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DIMENSIONS / WEIGHT
Wing Span 13.4 m
Wing Area 71.6 m2
Length 20.3 m
Height 5 m (20 ft)
Maximum Take Off Weight 60,000 lb
Engine Thrust Class 2 x 29,000 lb
Maximum Speed 1.8 Mach (at 40,000 ft)
Service Ceiling 55,000 ft
Positive / Negative G Limit +9g / -3.5g

FEATURES
Multirole (Air-to-Air & Air-to-Ground)
Super Cruise Capability
High Maneuverability
Low Observability with Weapon Bays
Extended Combat Radius
Interoperable with Current & Future Assets
High Situational Awareness
Optimized Pilot Work Load
with Decision Support Capability
Within & Beyond Visual Range Missiles Employment
Precision Strike

New Generation Avionics
• Integrated Radio Frequency System
• Integrated Electro Optical System
• Integrated Communication Navigation Identifi cation System
• Integrated Modular Avionics
• Large Area Display
• Helmet Mounted Display
 

Attachments

  • TechnicSpec_EN_KAAN.pdf
    1.2 MB · Views: 23
Scott Kenny said:
That's going to be a spicy plane, T:W of 0.97 at takeoff!
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I dare say the jet is actually 10 to 20k lb heavier cause even with all the new material advances and the innovative approach that TAI has taken; there's no way that a jet of this size and mission role is that light... Maybe these are only the specifications of the tech demo (P0/GTU-0) and the real prototypes and the serials after that will have different specifications due to mission payload?

I think an intern tasked with this specifications-update made a mistake or something, I mean yesterday we were also given the photos of GTU-0/P0 as supposedly the photos "P1".. This is quite literally a PR disaster (and not the first one at that!)...
 
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Combat-Master said:
"Kaan's new brochure shows new dimensions of aircraft. According to brochure, the length has shortened by 0.7m, the wingspan by 0.6m and the height by 1m."
https://twitter.com/x/status/1879202535472566766
View: https://x.com/T_Nblty/status/1879202535472566766

------------
DIMENSIONS / WEIGHT
Wing Span 13.4 m
Wing Area 71.6 m2
Length 20.3 m
Height 5 m (20 ft)
Maximum Take Off Weight 60,000 lb
Engine Thrust Class 2 x 29,000 lb
Maximum Speed 1.8 Mach (at 40,000 ft)
Service Ceiling 55,000 ft
Positive / Negative G Limit +9g / -3.5g

FEATURES
Multirole (Air-to-Air & Air-to-Ground)
Super Cruise Capability
High Maneuverability
Low Observability with Weapon Bays
Extended Combat Radius
Interoperable with Current & Future Assets
High Situational Awareness
Optimized Pilot Work Load
with Decision Support Capability
Within & Beyond Visual Range Missiles Employment
Precision Strike

New Generation Avionics
• Integrated Radio Frequency System
• Integrated Electro Optical System
• Integrated Communication Navigation Identifi cation System
• Integrated Modular Avionics
• Large Area Display
• Helmet Mounted Display
Click to expand...
People share these as the new dimensions of Kaan, but in reality it isn't. These are the actual values of Kaan P0. I have said it here many times that P0 isn't as big as people make it, and actually many people with interests like Paralay and Buchmaru calculated the length to be 20.2m
 
Küçükpazarlı Aerospace (KPA) delivered the first part produced for the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) KAAN at the recently commissioned KPA Surface Treatment Facility to TUSAŞ at a ceremony. The event, held at the KPA Surface Treatment Facility on January 15, was hosted by KPA General Manager Sefa Küçükpazarlı and KPA CEO Taha Küçükpazarlı. TUSAŞ Aviation Structurals Deputy General Manager Fahrettin Öztürk, Supply Chain Director Fatih Uysal, Business Transfer, Quality and Manufacturing Engineering Manager Serkan Yalız, Industrialization Operations Manager Emrah Ekri, Supply Chain Manager Hamdi Efe Evcioglu and TUSAŞ and KPA employees attended the ceremony.

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https://twitter.com/x/status/1879511982275006680
View: https://x.com/MSI_Dergisi/status/1879511982275006680/photo/4
 
Combat-Master said:
With the domestic engine, they are hoping to achieve 36,000lb of thrust wet. That would be 1.2T/W if the weight stays the same and 36k thrust is achieved with the domestic engine..
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I want to see that happen! If they can get the empty weight down to ~36,000lbs thrust, that'd give a vertical acceleration of nearly 2 gees when minimally fueled... (where's the "evil grin" emoji on this forum?)
 
I guess you guys had this discussion already a few times. I really don't care for the exact dimensions of the P0, or the P1, P2, P.... for that matter.
But, like I said, I’m curious about the relative height difference and how it was achieved. Even if it was rounded up before, it was now revised to 5m (without decimal places)
 
Deino said:
Even more so as per my understanding still not even a final decision on which design or who builds / develops it was being made.
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Actually, Turkish defense community is fully in consensus that the development has been underway behind closed doors for a long time, even if they haven’t revealed who won the tender (TEI + TRMotor or Kale Aero + RR). Turkey insisted on owning the IP rights of the engine, which led them to decline RR's offer to develop the TF36000 based on their Pearl engine core, opting instead to pursue full in-house development.

Since then, they’ve provided numerous hints suggesting that the development was officially kicked off in 2018, with momentum picking up when TAI acquired all the shares of TRMotor from its previous owners. So In a nutshell:

  1. TRMotor is the main contractor responsible for project management (similar to Eurojet in this regard), although oddly, they are also developing the APU with assistance from Ivchenko Progress.
  2. TEI is the primary subcontractor, responsible for most of the R&D and assembly of the engine.
  3. Smaller companies like Kale Aero, Alp Aviation, and others handle the remaining R&D assigned by TRMotor and produce subcomponents, such as Ti and Ni blisk stages, parts of the combustor, turbine disks, sumps, single crystal blades, etc. These smaller OEMs have gained extensive experience through their work on critical technologies for the F135 and F136 engines in the JSF program.
In conclusion, while most of us (myself included) have been complaining about the lack of activity, they’ve already been working on this for quite some time. And although this is not guaranteed, some people expect the mock-up of TF36000 to be revealed in this year's IDEF fair.
 
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snne said:
Actually, Turkish defense community is fully in consensus that the development has been underway behind closed doors for a long time, even if they haven’t revealed who won the tender (TEI + TRMotor or Kale Aero + RR). Turkey insisted on owning the IP rights of the engine, which led them to decline RR's offer to develop the TF36000 based on their Pearl engine core, opting instead to pursue full in-house development.

Since then, they’ve provided numerous hints suggesting that the development was officially kicked off in 2018, with momentum picking up when TAI acquired all the shares of TRMotor from its previous owners. So In a nutshell:

  1. TRMotor is the main contractor responsible for project management (similar to Eurojet in this regard), although oddly, they are also developing the APU with assistance from Ivchenko Progress.
  2. TEI is the primary subcontractor, responsible for most of the R&D and assembly of the engine.
  3. Smaller companies like Kale Aero, Alp Aviation, and others handle the remaining R&D assigned by TRMotor and produce subcomponents, such as Ti and Ni blisk stages, parts of the combustor, turbine disks, sumps, single crystal blades, etc. These smaller OEMs have gained extensive experience through their work on critical technologies for the F135 and F136 engines in the JSF program.
In conclusion, while most of us (myself included) have been complaining about the lack of activity, they’ve already been working on this for quite some time. And although this is not guaranteed, some people expect the mock-up of TF36000 to be revealed in this year's IDEF fair.
Click to expand...


Yes for sure, but my point again - and regardless that all again will claim "we have so much experience in manufacturing parts and building whole US engines together - it is a TOTALLY different thing to do it on your own for the first time alone on a completely new engine, where each and every part is new and different to what was done before. As such to think we have the technology, the individual parts and whatever available does not mean such an engine is "ready" within such a short time!

Again, but how long does it take for the US, France, GB, Russia & China to develop a totally new engine (even more so in this thrust-class) from initiation to first engine test? How long does it take for them to finish bench testing? And how long does it take usually until the first flight-ready engine can be tested in/on an actual aircraft? ... YEARS in any case and for any country with much more experience in developing and building operational engines! ... but Turkey want to do it within (PS/EDIT for a special offensive member) a time no-one managed to do it before?

Just in case for China:
Development of the WS-15 began in the early 1990s ... In 2005/2006 it was first tested on a test-stand! In 2009, a prototype achieved allegedly 160 kN and the aimed thrust of 180 kN was reportedly reached in 2012. Ten years later in March 2022, news said, a first J-20 had performed first trials with one engine and the first J-20A (no. 2052) with two WS-15 is in trial since June 2023!

So, and still the Turkish side tries to tell us, we should believe them that they manage to do the same - what China manages only from first bench test in 2005/06 to first flight on a J-20A in 2022 = 16 years! - in less than two years? (aka from 2028 - Delivery of first engine to 2029/30 onwards - Integration and testing on KAAN)???

That's ridiculous and in fact an insult against anyone with a logical thinking!

Again, no one denies it will happen and no-one wants to belittle what was already achieved, but to do what others did with much more experience in such a short time is just impossible!
 
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In my unpopular opinion, the endproduct of the engine will probably be quite similar to the F110-GE-132 with additional tweaks to the nozzle (a bit stealthier) and other components.
The TF-10000 production and the “assistance by Ivchenko” are part of the noise to mask the obvious.

I’m not judging. You have to do what you have to do.
 
0cu0 said:
In my unpopular opinion, the endproduct of the engine will probably be quite similar to the F110-GE-132 with additional tweaks to the nozzle (a bit stealthier) and other components.
The TF-10000 production and the “assistance by Ivchenko” are part of the noise to mask the obvious.

I’m not judging. You have to do what you have to do.
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If you think deleting 3 stages from the HPC and deleting one turbine stage is still making it a 'quite similar' engine to the F110, then I got a bridge to sell you.
 
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The Turks are both developing a turbofan engine that weighs 25% less, provides 8% more thrust, has 2 compressor stages less compared to its Ukrainian equivalent and finished development of an MTR390-E equivalent on their first try, should tell you enough what they are capable of and whether or not they can design a 36000lbf thrust afterburning turbofan engine in the 9:1 TWR category within a shorter timeframe than its peers.

We can see the writing on the wall.
 
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Waterballoon said:
The Turks are currently developing a turbofan engine that weighs 25% less, provides 8% more thrust, has 2 compressor stages less compared to its Ukrainian equivalent
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The AI-222? Low-thrust class turbofans are pretty easy to shed weight off, at least relatively compared to high-thrust class ones.

Waterballoon said:
and finished development of an MTR390-E equivalent both on their first try
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Using a turboshaft to gauge how you would go at turbofans is generally a bad idea.

Waterballoon said:
should tell you enough what they are capable of and whether or not they can design a 36000lbf thrust afterburning turbofan engine in the 9:1 TWR category within a shorter timeframe than its peers.
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It in fact does not. If anything, the lack of an indigenous high-thrust class turbofans (at LEAST F110 class) suggests that they won't bode well in developing an 160 kN class (lol) 5th generation engine. The sheer leap in terms of compressor technology alone will not be a breeze. In fact, it'll be excruciating. Nevermind a T/W of 9. The F119 isn't even upper 8.
 
Easy guys, don't argue, Deino's objections are logical and justified. All the countries that have produced high performance engines have taken at least 8-10 years to produce a working prototype. Another 2-3 years to iron out all the kinks in the engine and pass hundreds of tests.
Then again flight tests with the airplane, which also takes at least 1-2 years if not longer.
On average it takes 12-15 years until series production, if other countries take this long then Turkey will take at least as long. I also believe that the first prototype with a domestic engine will not be ready until 2033/2034. So if they haven't started very early, even Harry Potter can't help out here.
But you also have to make it clear that all the industrialized nations have produced their engines in peacetime, in Turkey you can see a certain mobilization without a war, the performance they put down, at least for such a country, is uncanny. It's not just that they are making leaps and bounds in one area, but also in Shipbuilding, Drones, Helicopters, Airdefence Systems and Airplanes ect....ok only in tank building have they been cucumbering around with the Altay for years.
 
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Alfa_Particle said:
The AI-222? Low-thrust class turbofans are pretty easy to shed weight off, at least relatively compared to high-thrust class ones.
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Try shedding two whole points of TWR. Pretty easy is the last thing that comes up in ones mind (that is if you're even acting in good faith).

Alfa_Particle said:
Using a turboshaft to gauge how you would go at turbofans is generally a bad idea.
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Its a good gauge of what their industry is capable of. Leapfrogging to a modern '00-'10 turbine engine is not an easy task.

Alfa_Particle said:
It in fact does not. If anything, the lack of an indigenous high-thrust class turbofans (at LEAST F110 class) suggests that they won't bode well in developing an 160 kN class (lol) 5th generation engine. The sheer leap in terms of compressor technology alone will not be a breeze. In fact, it'll be excruciating. Nevermind a T/W of 9. The F119 isn't even upper 8.
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Delete the bulky 2D TVC and a more modest supercruise speed of M1.4 as quoted by the previous CEO of TAI and it should comfortably come in within 9:1.

And the thing about compressors reminds me of the argument one made that Turks will have difficulty in designing conformal antennas for their stealth aircraft (lol). Meanwhile 10000+ Turkish blisks are spinning in LEAP and GEnx engines all over our heads...
 
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0cu0 said:
Alright, if we go on :)
IC3M@N FX gave actually an valid argument. If the necessity is big enough, than it has to be achieved.

Meaning in this instance. If the engine has to be finished at a certain date (if the US doesn't provide the GE), than the engine will perhaps not have ultimately 36,000 lbf and a T/W of 9.
I’m confident they could tweak a, by them, well known engine with a more modern production line and “assistance” to a perhaps 33.000 lbf - T/W 8 engine.
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Again ... no-one denies this but since you mentioned @IC3M@N FX's great post listing lots of valid arguments, he especially calculated the "regular" time to develop a high-end powerplant ... well, necessity is surely an argument, but Turkey - at least IMO feels more to be in dire need than it actually is in reality, so even if this perceived distress results in a faster development, but with common sense, organized engineering, testing and certification, the mentioned time of 12-15 years can maybe be shortened by a few years to maybe 10-12 - provided that absolutely nothing goes wrong - but certainly not from 12-15 to 2-3!

That is simply impossible! ... and anyone who still pretends to know better must either present some very good arguments or simply cannot be taken seriously. Period.
 
You are talking about engineering something from scratch, I’m not.
Deino said:
Again ... no-one denies this but since you mentioned @IC3M@N FX's great post listing lots of valid arguments, he especially calculated the "regular" time to develop a high-end powerplant ... well, necessity is surely an argument, but Turkey - at least IMO feels more to be in dire need than it actually is in reality, so even if this perceived distress results in a faster development, but with common sense, organized engineering, testing and certification, the mentioned time of 12-15 years can maybe be shortened by a few years to maybe 10-12 - provided that absolutely nothing goes wrong - but certainly not from 12-15 to 2-3!

That is simply impossible! ... and anyone who still pretends to know better must either present some very good arguments or simply cannot be taken seriously. Period.
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I’m sticking to my example.
The development of the F110-GE-132 (advanced variant of the GE-129, which Turkey already has build):
- started in 2000
- Engine flight tests began in 2003
- and first delivery was in 2005
 
@snne
0cu0 said:
You are talking about engineering something from scratch, I’m not.

I’m sticking to my example.
The development of the F110-GE-132 (advanced variant of the GE-129, which Turkey already has build):
- started in 2000
- Engine flight tests began in 2003
- and first delivery was in 2005
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As far as I know, we only build the F-110 Engines together with parts A, B, C etc., if at all, and take care of the maintenance. But it's not really manufacturing because most of the sensitive parts come from the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Guys keep it real, if the engine has been in development since 2010 or earlier for example, then there is no evidence from the Turkish Industry. Turkey has achieved a lot, but one should not swear one of their thousand gods like the people from the Indian forum do and then say believe me it is there and ready ..... unless there is credible evidence, whether it is a strategic calculation to hide a development or not.
We have to assume that it will take 12-15 years to finish!
 
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According to Wikipedia TUSAŞ Engine Industries has build the F110 under license.
I will not splitting hair between building and assembly. Even if all components where manufactured somewhere else, time wise, it is possible to get the lines rolling if needed.
 
0cu0 said:
According to Wikipedia TUSAŞ Engine Industries has build the F110 under license.
I will not splitting hair between building and assembly. Even if all components where manufactured somewhere else, time wise, it is possible to get the lines rolling if needed.
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But there is a considerable difference between assembling and manufacturing and assembling.
You can reach a certain level when assembling an Engine. You can certainly also gain a great deal of knowledge by completely disassembling the Engine and Maintaining it, including through reverse engineering.
But material research that is heat-resistant even under high pressure + software development for engine monitoring and control etc. simply costs an immense amount of time.
 

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