TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[Ainen]

So, to summarize the prototype:

If everything goes as planned, we are to have:

-4th stealth("5th gen") heavy fighter; with two F110s it only foes there; same subgroup with KF-21, J-35 and (if it will fly) Su-75.

-While Turkish members comment on strong A2A focus - chosen bay configuration and dedicated A2G 360 deg IRST strongly hint towards a true multirole. Heavy fighter of this size can do it without significant sacrifices, in any case.

-optics-heavy configuration - in fact, even richer than Rafale: two independent, fully functional internal IRSTs(most probably actually two separate sensors with different bands and sensor configurations, too) with some field overlap is new. Sorta J-20+F-35 in this sense.

-as noted above - no HUD.

 

[Manuducati]

looking back, its obviously different
but the general lay out is roughly the same

Also the F-15-like underslung main landing gear. The intake location recalls the YF-22.

Exactly, and it was suboptimal in drag and pilot visibility. Cockpit was then moved forward, and intakes backwards for the production F-22A. Will the production TFX follow the same path?

 

[snne]

RoomyView attachment 696250

Is this the ejection seat? If so, MMU and KF-21 share the same seat

 

[Nart]

RoomyView attachment 696250

Is this the ejection seat? If so, MMU and KF-21 share the same seat

View attachment 696274

Not exactly. TF-X's seat is a mix between MK16-US16E (F-35) and MK18-US18E (F-16 Block 70/72).

 

[Maro.Kyo]

I notice that there is no HUD, will there be a F-35 style helmet?

View attachment 696262View attachment 696261
Yes, Aselsan will make the helmet.

It resembles BAE Striker II quite a lot. I'd say it ain't a coincidence since BAE also helped them out with basic design phase (phase-1 stage-1 in the development timeline).

Does anyone know if BAE is still involved in stage-2? Last time I've heard a news about it, BAE and the Turkish government were negotiating for the stage-2 technical assistance.

 

[red admiral]

Does anyone know if BAE is still involved in stage-2?

Yes. There are quite a lot of BAES staff in Turkiye.

 

[snne]

Does anyone know if BAE is still involved in stage-2?

Yes. There are quite a lot of BAES staff in Turkiye.

Around 150 afaik. It actually isn't that much considering there are thousands of engineers that are directly working on the programme at TAI. Their main role seems to be consultancy.

 

[snne]

I notice that there is no HUD, will there be a F-35 style helmet?

View attachment 696262View attachment 696261
Yes, Aselsan will make the helmet.

It resembles BAE Striker II quite a lot. I'd say it ain't a coincidence since BAE also helped them out with basic design phase (phase-1 stage-1 in the development timeline).

Does anyone know if BAE is still involved in stage-2? Last time I've heard a news about it, BAE and the Turkish government were negotiating for the stage-2 technical assistance.

Afaik BAE is responsible for supporting TAI's design activities and that does not include avionics and such that are developed by Aselsan. Thus there actually isn't a connection between the companies. But the resemblance is there, I agree on that.

Aselsan actually has a history of developing HMDs primarily for attack helicopters as shared by @Combat-Master here before:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aselsan-helmet-integrated-cueing-systems.39518/

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Afaik BAE is responsible for supporting TAI's design activities and that does not include avionics and such that are developed by Aselsan. Thus there actually isn't a connection between the companies. But the resemblance is there, I agree on that.

Aselsan actually has a history of developing HMDs primarily for attack helicopters as shared by @Combat-Master here before:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aselsan-helmet-integrated-cueing-systems.39518/

Yes, I'm aware of ASELSAN HMDs for ATAK and don't get me wrong, I ain't saying that BAE would've been seriously involved with the HMD design. Though it is in the realm of possibility that the Turkish engineers would've gotten some hints or directions from BAE folks on how a next gen HMD should look like, what it must be able to do, possibile ways of realizing those features etc. That's in fact is the kind of knowledge a TAC should provide afterall.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Around 150 afaik. It actually isn't that much considering there are thousands of engineers that are directly working on the programme at TAI. Their main role seems to be consultancy.

Are there some concrete figures for the stage-2 contract? Stage-1 contract was known to be "in excess of £100million" for example.

Also, if true, the "thousands of engineers" you've mentioned is probably the number of engineers involved in the entire TF-X ecosystem, from TAI that is responsible for the aircraft itself and the system integration, down to the subcontractors of subcontractors that are responsible for the smallest parts. Based on educated guess (from previous fighter jet development examples), the total number of engineers who are directly involved in the project (main contractor and 1st line sub contractors contracted directly to TAI and SSB) would rather range from a few hundreads to a thousand and a half.

 

[snne]

Was he officially speaking? I wonder what the Air Force's going to say to this.

 

[snne]

Around 150 afaik. It actually isn't that much considering there are thousands of engineers that are directly working on the programme at TAI. Their main role seems to be consultancy.

Are there some concrete figures for the stage-2 contract? Stage-1 contract was known to be "in excess of £100million" for example.

Also, if true, the "thousands of engineers" you've mentioned is probably the number of engineers involved in the entire TF-X ecosystem, from TAI that is responsible for the aircraft itself and the system integration, down to the subcontractors of subcontractors that are responsible for the smallest parts. Based on educated guess (from previous fighter jet development examples), the total number of engineers who are directly involved in the project (main contractor and 1st line sub contractors contracted directly to TAI and SSB) would rather range from a few hundreads to a thousand and a half.

you should read this thread:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1639367167501008897

View: https://twitter.com/Keremhok/status/1639367167501008897

 

[Canardzz]

Yep. Everyone should read it.

 

[red admiral]

I'm unclear what that tells me besides: ~1500 people involved in TAI (not a great surprise for this scale project) and that 100 BAES engineers didn't suddenly all turn on day 1 (again not surprising)

 

[Combat-Master]

Timeline has changed once more, first flight is now expected to happen in 2024 as per Defence Minister in Today's interview with CNN TURK.

 

[Canardzz]

Timeline has changed once more, first flight is now expected to happen in 2024 as per Defence Minister in Today's interview with CNN TURK.

It hasn't changed. The official timeframe is still the same. First flight still expected in late 2023. At least for now. This I believe has more to do with expectations.

SSB is apparently in favor of a low-risk approach, whereas TAI is currently saying "yea scratch that we gotta fly this thing as soon as possible".

 

[FighterJock]

First flight for the TFX expected in late 2023? Let's see if they can keep to that target, I certainly do wish that to be true I am desperate to see this fighter fly for the first time.

 

[Canardzz]

First flight for the TFX expected in late 2023? Let's see if they can keep to that target, I certainly do wish that to be true I am desperate to see this fighter fly for the first time.

It certainly can and the aircraft is being prepped accordingly. SSB president's latest announcements came as a surprise to everyone. But SSB has always been like this. If they're still aiming to fly GTU-0/P0, they will be able to do so by the end of the year.

 

[TomcatViP]

here is the full video of todays?ysterday?
taxi roll

Are they using asymmetric thrust to steer the aircraft?"

To me, it appears that there was only one single engine running.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

you should read this thread:

Based on educated guess (from previous fighter jet development examples), the total number of engineers who are directly involved in the project (main contractor and 1st line sub contractors contracted directly to TAI and SSB) would rather range from a few hundreads to a thousand and a half.

Milli Muharip Uçak için çalışan 1500 mühendis var.

So my observations were correct indeed.

Apart from that, he's talking about delivering aircraft in 2028. Considering that BURFIS is planned for completion by 2025 at the earliest, I find this very unlikely. Also I don't know why but what this Kotil guy is saying are not in line with what I've read about TF-X development timelines from other Turkish officials not too long ago.

Overall, if we recall that phase-II was originally planned for completion (IOC) by 2029, a delivery from 2028 will either mean that the IOC will be achieved at least 2~3 years earlier than the first plan, or that they will enter initial production without the IOC. Both sounds very risky.

 

[Canardzz]

İbrahim Sünnetçi:

"The actual maiden flight will take place in 2025, this flight (he is referring to GTU-0's planned 2023 flight) will be a part of the accelerated aircraft flying programme."

 

[Maro.Kyo]

SSB is apparently in favor of a low-risk approach, whereas TAI is currently saying "yea scratch that we gotta fly this thing as soon as possible".

Oh that's why there are these differing statements I've mentioned above. Well it makes sense since SSB folks are the one primarily responsible for the project management, including the risk management. They are the ones who will foot the bill first hand if there are to be any delays or cost overruns. TAI on the other hand could be as ambitious as they want. They are working with someone else's money.

If they're still aiming to fly GTU-0/P0, they will be able to do so by the end of the year.

If the new plan from TAI is to achieve maiden flight by the end of this year, there are no other choice than to fly the GTU-0. Though as we've discussed a few weeks ago, doing so much of the T&E with a pre-CDR aircraft that is not equipped with major avionics like the GTU-0 comes with a lot of risks.

Also, considering the fact that most of the difficulties in developing 5th gen fighter jet stems from its avionics and its software rather than the airframe itself, I still can't think that achieving maiden flight 2 years earlier will actually lead to the total project schedule brought forward by 2 years, that unless they also accelerate the development of major avionics programs like BURFIS and BEOS, etc.

 

[Canardzz]

SSB is apparently in favor of a low-risk approach, whereas TAI is currently saying "yea scratch that we gotta fly this thing as soon as possible".

Oh that's why there are these differing statements I've mentioned above. Well it makes sense since SSB folks are the one primarily responsible for the project management, including the risk management. They are the ones who will foot the bill first hand if there are to be any delays or cost overruns. TAI on the other hand could be as ambitious as they want. They are working with someone else's money.

If they're still aiming to fly GTU-0/P0, they will be able to do so by the end of the year.

If the new plan from TAI is to achieve maiden flight by the end of this year, there are no other choice than to fly the GTU-0. Though as we've discussed a few weeks ago, doing so much of the T&E with a pre-CDR aircraft that is not equipped with major avionics like the GTU-0 comes with a lot of risks.

Also, considering the fact that most of the difficulties in developing 5th gen fighter jet stems from its avionics and its software rather than the airframe itself, I still can't think that achieving maiden flight 2 years earlier will actually lead to the total project schedule brought forward by 2 years, that unless they also accelerate the development of major avionics programs like BURFIS and BEOS, etc.

GTU-0/P0 is airworthy and the necessary avionics are installed. So a short hop shouldn't be problematic. But that being said, I don't think the whole program will be brought forward like you pointed out.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

GTU-0/P0 is airworthy and the necessary avionics are installed. So a short hop shouldn't be problematic. But that being said, I don't think the whole program will be brought forward like you pointed out.

Yes, it would be equipped with some central systems like the mission computer and the FLCS (I remember that someone posted the news of TF-X mission computer that has besn supplied to TAI from TUBITAK for GTU-0).

Though what I've meant with "major avionics" were those mission critical systems like the radar, EW suite, EO suite, CNI etc. We know that these avionics are still not ready and GTU-0 doesn't have them. Also, system integration of thses avionics with the mission computer has not been demonstrated either. I am paying close attention to Ozgur project as that will demonstrate a lot of the core abilities of major players invloved, such as Aselsan and TUBITAK, in developing TF-X avionics.

That being said, I think an accelerated flght program will be beneficial for the development of the flight control model and implementation.

Overall, 2025 will still be the most important year in the TF-X program. I'd say that it will already be a very commendable achievemet if they fly the first EMD prototype in 2025, more than a full year earlier than the original timeline.

 

[Allmagor]

President of the Turkish defense industry Prof. Dr. Ismail Demir:
“TF-X will be a little later than its counterparts, but it will be finalized so that it will surpass its competitors. TF-X will have artificial intelligence that its competitors do not have, a cyber security system.”
"By installing our domestic engines on it, we can safely call it a 5th generation aircraft."

 

[red admiral]

President of the Turkish defense industry Prof. Dr. Ismail Demir:
“TF-X will be a little later than its counterparts, but it will be finalized so that it will surpass its competitors. TF-X will have artificial intelligence that its competitors do not have, a cyber security system.”
"By installing our domestic engines on it, we can safely call it a 5th generation aircraft."

What do they think it's counterparts are?

 

[FighterJock]

F-22 Raptor, Su-57, Boramae.

 

[Deino]

F-22 Raptor, Su-57, Boramae.

... and J-20, J-35!

President of the Turkish defense industry Prof. Dr. Ismail Demir:
“TF-X will be a little later than its counterparts, but it will be finalized so that it will surpass its competitors. TF-X will have artificial intelligence that its competitors do not have, a cyber security system.”
"By installing our domestic engines on it, we can safely call it a 5th generation aircraft."

Well ... I would like to wait for all this ... the prototype is indeed a great achievement, but so far it hasn't flown yet, much of its systems are not ready too and even more there remains like Damocles' sword the unsolved engine issue. I think it is safe to say, this type especially since much larger than a Raptor is totally underpowered by its two F110 engines and if and when the new engines are done depends on so much ... so let's enjoy what you have by now, but do not celebrate it as a Raptor-killer today.

 

[FighterJock]

Thanks Deino, I thought that the J-20 was not for sale, so that just leaves the J-35 as a potential export Chinese fifth generation fighter.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

F-22 Raptor, Su-57, Boramae.

... and J-20, J-35!

The quote “TF-X will be a little later than its counterparts" sound more like he's talking about the newer fighter jets currently under development, that are in a more advanced stage of development, such as KF-21, Tejas MWF, TEDBF/ORCA and J-35 rather than mature systems like the Raptor or Lightening II and J-20.

Also, I'm not really sure how he can judge all those without necessary information on foreign programs. Sounds more like a PR. More importantly, I'm pretty sure any kind of AI/deep learning capability onboard J-35 will be way more advanced that that of TF-X, if we consider the difference in investment and output in the field of AI and neural networks in China and Turkey.

 

[Canardzz]

much of its systems are not ready too

Hmmm... According to some reports ASELSAN has been quietly making progress with most of these systems. BÜRFİS still has a long ways to go but I believe we should be ready for a couple of surprises in the upcoming months.

 

[Deino]

much of its systems are not ready too

Hmmm... According to some reports ASELSAN has been quietly making progress with most of these systems. BÜRFİS still has a long ways to go but I believe we should be ready for a couple of surprises in the upcoming months.

That’s for sure, but again I don’t think it is save and ready yet. Especially let’s wait for the elections and possible political changes

 

[FighterJock]

I had forgotten that the Turkey elections are due. Let's see what happens and who gets to be the next president, especially after the earthquake disaster.

 

[helmutkohl]

I agree with Deino

among the 5th gen aircraft..
there's been some really huge changes from the prototypes/demonstrators to the production aircraft.
See how much the F-22, F-35, J-31, and J-20 changed from the originals.
I would not be surprised if the TFX saw some changes as well.

would be curious to what kind of changes we could expect in the future.

 

[Canardzz]

much of its systems are not ready too

Hmmm... According to some reports ASELSAN has been quietly making progress with most of these systems. BÜRFİS still has a long ways to go but I believe we should be ready for a couple of surprises in the upcoming months.

That’s for sure, but again I don’t think it is save and ready yet. Especially let’s wait for the elections and possible political changes

It is being said that most of the systems are ready and undergoing testing. Opposition emphasized that they were supporting the National Combat Aircraft Project but we will see.

 

[FighterJock]

That is true helmutkohl, I remember reading about the original F-22 design in Bill Sweetman's F-22 Raptor book, and how Lockheed had to redesign it over six months to get to the design that we now know as the F-22A Raptor. As to the TFX I think that there could be some form of minor changes over the course of the flight tests and the production aircraft, it all depends on how the tests go.

 

[Canardzz]

Giorgio Clementi- ITPS Canada President:

"The International Test Pilots School (ITPS) has had a long standing and successful relationship with Turkish Aerospace now spanning a decade. During that time ITPS graduates have taken the Hurkus turboprop trainer and T-625 medium helicopter to first flight, development and certification. In recent weeks ITPS graduates have conducted the first taxi tests of the Hurjet and TF-X prototypes. Turkish aerospace industry will be flight testing these and other products into the future creating a demand for test pilots, flight test engineers and supporting specialists. I am proud to announce that ITPS will be establishing a satellite Approved Training Organisation (ATO) in Türkiye in partnership with Turkish Aerospace. The first Test Pilot and Flight Test Engineer course to be ever held in Türkiye will commence on 3 July 2023. I want to thank Prof. Dr Temel Kotil President and CEO of Turkish Aerospace as well as the Turkish Air Force for the trust placed in ITPS in entrusting us with the training of their best pilots and engineers for the challenging task of testing their exciting new aircraft."

Murat Özpala- CAT-1 Experimental Test Pilot Hürkuş- Turkish Aerospace:

"I’m so proud to announce that the International Test Pilots School (ITPS) establishes a satellite Approved Training Organization (ATO) in partnership with Turkish Aerospace (Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii ) in Ankara/Türkiye…"

Flight Test Teams for our national air vehicle design & develepment programs flight testing, requiring highly skilled, well educated Test Pilots and Flight Test Engineers who will study & practice, and learn all necessary academic-theoric knowledge and flight test technics as well as it’s philosophy under supervising of fine selection of instructors from all over the world…

I was the very first student & graduate of ITPS, from Türkiye in 2012-2013…

The course will commence on 3 July 2023 at Turkish Aerospace facilities…

 

[Canardzz]

Turkish Aerospace Industries signed a protocol with Ege University Rector Mr. Necdet Budak to establish an Advanced Coatings, Thin Films and Surface Research Laboratory.

 

[snne]

Via @buchmaru from twitter

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

That is true helmutkohl, I remember reading about the original F-22 design in Bill Sweetman's F-22 Raptor book, and how Lockheed had to redesign it over six months to get to the design that we now know as the F-22A Raptor. As to the TFX I think that there could be some form of minor changes over the course of the flight tests and the production aircraft, it all depends on how the tests go.

I really don't expect major changes to TFX. The design has evolved a great deal already over the past years to the current shape. Look at Su-57, basically no design evolution from prototype to production.

F-35 had two demonstrators not at all aiming to represent a production aircraft but rather prove a basic operating concept i.e. the lift fan. The A and B shared an airframe and the C shared the basic design with new wings. Lots of compromise there to build two cheapish demonstrators so changes are expected. I'd argue the X-35 to F-35 had rather few OML changes - for the B certainly and it was only really canopy shape for A and C. YF-22 to F-22 saw big changes as the YF-22 really wasn't a mature design after majir redesign work when GD merged. Look at the YF-23 to proposed F-23. The more mature design had far less radical changes.
The chinese designs on the otherhand is a mystery to me. It seems their stealth aircraft are evolving as their industry strengthens and knowledge base on aircraft and stealth design deepens. Maybe not too dissimilar to Turkey although more isolated.

Time will tell I guess but for some reason I expect only minor refinements rather than major redesigns as per its peers.