Polish Projects

[USSEssex]

About frigates from Poland.

Few of you know that frigates were designed in Poland after the war.

In this post, I will try to introduce you to some of them.
After the October thaw, in 1956 dreamed of frigates, so ships of this class had been designed since the 1950s.
The first such project that I think is worth writing about and which I know is project 603 from 1956.

project 603, codenamed Bryza, was a ship to search for and combat submarines, to carry out close and distant surveillance, to lay minefields and to defend convoys.
It was to have a displacement of 850 tons
top speed of 36 knots
cruising range 3500 nautical miles at 15-18 knots of economic speed.

His armament is
2xII automatic guns caliber 100 mm with fire control radar (or ship-ship and land-air missile launchers)
2xII automatic 57 mm guns with their own fire control radar
1xIII 533 mm torpedo tube,
MBU 600 depth charge rocket launchers,
stern depth charge launchers,
4 broadside launchers of classic depth charges
and deep sea tracks at the stern.
Project 603.1 and project 603.2 did not differ much because the differences are in the propulsion system.
Project 603.1 was to have a three-shaft power plant with 2 FIAT diesel engines and 4x TM 1 gas turbines with subversions that differed in the arrangement of individual elements.
Project 603.2
a two-shaft variant was envisaged.
4 FIAT engines and 2 turbines
or three-shaft 4 gas turbines of 2 types.
In 1958, the concept was presented to the Soviets, they recommended developing technical documentation as soon as possible and building a prototype by 1965, but they said that there would be no twin 100 mm guns in the near future.

The work lasted until 1960.

Sometimes this ship is written as a large submarine chaser (de facto corvette) and sometimes a frigate.
Another of the frigate projects.

Project 610 small frigate
standard displacement
750 tons
total length 66.2 m
width 9.7 m
draft 2.8 m
armament
1 x Osa-M

2 × AK-230

2 x RBU-2500

2xI torpedo tubes with firing control system
Ship's propulsion
4 engines 40D

2 × TM-1
Speed is 31 knots.

Another project of a small frigate is project 611.
Standard displacement is 770 tons
total length 66.2 m
width 9.7 m
Draft 2.9 m
Armament
1 x II 57mm ZIF-31B gun

2 × AK-230

2 x RBU-2500

2 × I torpedo tubes with firing control system

Top speed 30.5 knots.

In fact, after the war, everything was designed in Poland, from torpedo boats to patrol ships, ending with frigates, the only thing not designed in Poland were battleships, cruisers, destroyers and submarines.
and there are a lot of these projects.
I can add not-so-called projects Potyrała are not projects, but I will explain it later.

 

[Tzoli]

For Project 603:
Well the Poles could had used the older 100mm CM-5 Pattern 1947 guns (The AA guns of the Sverdlovs)
Interesting mix of Soviet weaponry and European (Italian and British) propulsion system

Do you know any other data? Dimensions? Engine power?

From what time frame was the Project 610 and 611 designs were from?

To add to your list of project numbers, I had these:

Project 5751C - Modified Orzel - Submarine Design
Project 620 - Kaszub - Guided Missile Corvette
Project 660 - Orkan / Sassnitz - Guided Missile Corvette/Fast Attack Craft
Project 621 - Ślązak / Gawron - Guided Missile Corvette/Light Frigate/Offshore Patrol Vessel

 

[Dilandu]

In fact, after the war, everything was designed in Poland, from torpedo boats to patrol ships, ending with frigates, the only thing not designed in Poland were battleships, cruisers, destroyers and submarines.

Well, it seems that Polish admirals reasoned that while it is reasonable to have some large units in mostly coastal fleet, it is not practical to try and build them by themselves. Poland needed only a few destroyers and submarines at most, so it was much simpler and cheaper to just order them from USSR (who could produce such ships in grest numbers). On the other hand, frigates and smaller units Poland could build without excessive spendings, so it was reasonable to work on them.

 

[Dilandu]

Well the Poles could had used the older 100mm CM-5 Pattern 1947 guns (The AA guns of the Sverdlovs

Those guns weren't automatic. While it wasn't a big issue for cruiser (which carried enough of them to produce required volume of fire), it would be a big problem for a small unit.

AK-726 (dual 76-mm) may be the solution, though.

 

[USSEssex]

As for project 603, so far I have not found any more data or drawings.

I don't have a date for the 610 and 611 projects, but if I remember correctly they were presented in 1960 along with other projects, although I'll check later when I have access to a computer.

I can mention other projects that I will write

project 605.3
project 608
they were corvettes
Project 617
Project 618 - Frigate
Project 619 - Frigate
The last two ships above are from the 1960s.

 

[USSEssex]

Reading Wielki Leksykon Uzbrojenia wrzesień 1939 tom 68 title Okręty, których zabrakło by Mariusz Borowiak, I came across some interesting information.

1. It says what Aleksander Potyrała wrote years later about the plans of the Polish Navy.
He wrote that as far as he remember, in the next 2 or 3 years they predicted a certain stagnation in the construction of new ships, he also wrote that there was no clear position of the chief of staff of KMW and the commander of the fleet as to what ships we should build, many small and maybe still large ships.

In the statement of our engineer, it is also written that apart from 3 slipways with a length not exceeding 130 meters, until the war no further slipways were planned to be built.

2. There was also talk about concepts and here it is interesting.
At one time, concepts for building light cruisers were considered, but were abandoned due to lack of money for it.

There were also tendencies to maintain the tonnage of destroyers in the Grom class (max 2183 tons, author's note)
however, the fact that the Germans built destroyers of 1,800 tons and torpedo boats of 800 tons was disturbing.

There were also concepts of building submarines with a tonnage of 600 tons, while the fact that Germany at that time was building submarines with a displacement of 300 tons was disturbing.

This would be due to the fact that there was an interesting discussion on the whole of the Polish fleet up there( my comment).
3. From the moment What budget possibilities did the Navy have for the years 1939-1942
the author mentions that apart from 2 destroyers of the improved Grom class built in Poland, the completion of the construction of two torpedo-artillery MTBs, which were built in England, was awaited with impatience.
During the consultations, there was a chance to build in Gdynia another 6 minesweepers of the Jaskółka class, or a smaller number but with a greater tonnage of 400 or 600 tons, 3 torpedo-artillery MTBs of the same design that were built in England, and here may be a surprise for you now, 3 submarines of medium tonnage (i.e. about 600 tons) of an undetermined type.
Potyrała calculated that about PLN 60 million was needed for everything.
The end.
By the way, I shortened it for you what our engineer wrote about, and it was in the article.
I just want to remind you that the new project 5751C submarines began construction in 1939, but as you know, this construction was not completed, we do not even know the names of the first 2 submarines.
Further submarines of this type were to be built in Poland.
And the Orzeł type does not refer to the fact that they were Dutch project submarines because it is a different project, a new construction, and more for armament.
Finally, I would like to add that the information about cruiser 8000 from the links I provided above are not all sources and there are more, only that they are in various CAW files, you know, fragments of information here and there, and they do not constitute a coherent cause and effect logical sequence.

But as I said earlier, you have to wait for the article for more information about Polish cruisers, because so far, the most famous naval programs have been described, attempts to acquire cruisers such as Desaix or Japanese cruisers, or even cruisers offered before or during the takeover of ORP Dragon, but Polish projects of generally unbuilt cruisers or offers in the form of drawings were not described.

 

[USSEssex]

1. I read a monograph about ORP Wicher and ORP Grom project 30bis.
And there I found information about another variant of modernization from 1968.
This variant included the replacement of two 85 mm guns and all single 37 mm guns, while instead of them a quadruple mount with 57 mm guns (1xIV) and 4xII 37 mm guns was to appear.
additionally 2x16 RBU 2500
1 new FUT B AA fire control radar
GS 572 was to replace the Tamir 5N
The launchers were to be adapted to launch SET 53 electric anti-submarine torpedoes.
It was in May 1968 when the Polish-Soviet technical commission met.
This proposal was offered to us by the Russians, this proposal rebuild of the ships was based on project 31.
The supporter of this modernization was Gorshkov.
In addition, at the end of 1967, 2 ideas appeared in the DMW regarding the problem with the destroyers project 30bis.
1. The first one is the decommissioning of these destroyers, and the de facto purchase of new destroyers with missile armament.
2. The second idea is a major overhaul of these ships, but also a complete modernization of the project 30bis destroyers.
An earlier idea also from the end of 1967 which also appeared in DMW, assumed a complete replacement of the power plant, with the use of new types of internal combustion engines.
Source Morze 10/2017 page 37, article Spadkobiercy wojennych tradycji by Robert Rochowicz
However, the proposal to replace the 130 mm and 85 mm guns, which has already been written here, was Gorshkov's idea from around 1969. So, I counted 3 or 4 proposals/ideas to modernization these destroyers.

2. I will write there again about the project 956 for Poland.
I didn't find out too much new information, but from what I can see it was written that there was a project of the Project 956P destroyer, which was supposedly dedicated to the Polish fleet, it was supposed to have weaker armament, in Nowa Technika Wojskowa 6/2021 this is an article Niszczyciele rakietowe Warszawa by Robert Rochowicz.
From what I can see, it refers to a Russian study, this is a book/article from the 1990s.
Then I will write something more about frigates and corvettes.

 

[ptdockyard]

But as I said earlier, you have to wait for the article for more information about Polish cruisers

Doubling the lookouts........

 

[USSEssex]

One of the first submarine chasers projects was project 605.
Tactical and technical requirements were created in 1961, and then in 1962 the concept of project 605 in CBKO 2 was created.
As far as I can see it is what you see in the picture.

The next graphic shows project 605.3, CBKO 2 has developed technical documentation for this ship, it is known that in 1964 this project 605.3 saw the light of day along with 7 other projects, these were projects 605 to 611.
Data for project 605.3
standard displacement 298 tons
full displacement 337 tons
length 49.01 m
width 6.99 m
draft 2.12 m
Armament
2×II AK-230 30mm

4xV RBU-1200

12 × BB-1
Equipment
1 × MR-104

1 × MG-11
propulsion
2 x 40D

1 × TM-1
Speed 30 knots

The next submarine chasers designs that were developed were the
project 606
Data
Standard displacement 410 tons
Length
54.2 m
Width
7.9 m
Draft
2.8 m
Armament
2 x AK-230
2 xV RBU-1500 or RBU-2500
12 x BB-1
Equipment
1 x MR-104
1 x GS-572
Drive
2 x 40D
1 x TM-1
Speed
28 knots
project 607
Data
Standard displacement 420 tons
Length
54.2 m
Width
7.9 m
Dipping
2.3 m
Armament
2 x AK-230
2 xV RBU-1500 or RBU-2500
12 x BB-1
Equipment
1 x MR-104
1 x GS-572
Drive
2 x 40D
1 x TM-1
Speed
26.5 knots
project 608
Data
Standard displacement 500 tons
Length
60 m
Width
8.6 m
Draft
2.3 m
Armament
2 x ZIF-31B
2 x RBU-2500
12 x BB-1
Equipment
1 x MR-104
1 x GS-572
Drive
2 x 40D
1 x TM-1
Speed
24 knots

project 609 was a submarine chaser project, but the ship can be classified as a corvette.
Data
Standard displacement 520 tons
Length
61.2 m
Width
8.6 m
Draft
2.4 m
Armament
2 x ZIF-31B
2 x RBU-2500
12 x BB-1
Equipment
1 x MR-104
1 x GS-572
Drive
2 x 40D
1 x TM-1
Speed
28 knots

Anyway, the project 609 is from 1964.
In 1967, the next projects were presented and they were project 614 and project 615, these were ships that were 71 meters long, width 9.9 meters (or 9 meters), full displacement estimated at 1000 or 1125 tons.
Compared to project 609, the ship's power plant was actually enlarged by adding an additional turbine, but the armament remained unchanged.
In the next post there will be projects from the 70s and 80s. And then rather about the ship codenamed Tukan.
Unfortunately, I did not find more information about the 614 and 615 projects, as well as graphics.

 

[USSEssex]

I added a new drawing to my post about minelayer designs, post from April 2, because I came across a new article.

 

[USSEssex]

A short supplement to the topic of MTB, i.e. the evolution of MTB for Poland.
We'll start with B.B.D 36/37.
Blueprint here

Data for B.B.D 36/37

What we know about this offer, first of all, is that it has 1xII 13.2 mm machine gun, placed behind the superstructure, thanks to the recess of the superstructure, the machine gun had a large field of fire.
The next project which is an evolution of the torpedo boat for pre-war Poland is the B.B.D 40/37, the drawing which was previously posted by the dockyard, has reference number B.B.D 44/38 and is dated October 1, 1938.
Only there is one problem... this is not the final version of the torpedo boat built for Poland.
Why?
The final version is B.B.D 65/38, technical drawings of this version have not yet been found, as far as I know.
But we reconstructed the look of it. torpedo boat (at least partially). Here's what we know about them.
a) First of all, the armament was to be of Polish production, the 40 mm gun from the Starachowice factory( 40 mm Bofors Starachowice gun), as you can guess, was to be in the front, additionally 1xII heavy machine gun wz.08, placed behind the superstructure, and 2 533 mm torpedo launchers, also from Poland, however, it is not known whether they would have been delivered before the completion of the ship, so far we only know a drawing of the tube of this launcher.
b) The second clue is an advertisement of the White shipyard, but it should be noted that for the purpose of the advertisement, the torpedo boat presented here does not have a 40 mm gun.
Here, I insert the original.

c) To this day, there is a photo (at least) of the construction of this torpedo boat, I will post it.

The advertisement of the White shipyard of the torpedo boat shows a small cut in the side of the ship, while in the photo we see it larger, if someone does not know where it is, I will post a photo where it can be seen better, verification was made by Andrzej Ciszewski.

Why is it like that? it's hard to say, maybe in the advertisement of the White shipyard we see the version before they are enlarged, and it can also be a reference to British constructions. We don't know that anyway.

This is how the torpedo boat should look like according to the contract, although the appearance of the torpedo tube is presumed, I remind you that this is an attempt at reconstruction. (because we don't know if it was supposed to be a Polish torpedo launcher or an british one, there are 2 versions with these launchers)

here with british torpedo tube

Drawings by Andrzej Ciszewski.

The source of information is the site you have in the link https://army1914-1945.org.pl/polska...rekursorska-konstrukcja-swych-czasow-technika , the drawing B.B.D 36/37 also comes from here, as well as the photo from the construction of the torpedo boat, archival materials from this site and the text on the site is by Maciej Tomaszewski, while the reconstruction of this torpedo boat (drawing) and verification are by Andrzej Ciszewski.
I also used Adam Jarski's article to write the post so as not to make a mistake in naming, but I shortened it for you because I didn't think that there was no need to present other projects apart from the most important ones.

 

[USSEssex]

The last export project of the USSR for the Polish Navy?

I will tell you a story, although I do not know how much of it is true and how much is a legend.
It was the 1980s, when the successor to ORP Warszawa (Project 56AE) was being thought of.
Then it was possible to build a new Krivak ship for the Polish Navy.
It was supposed to be a ship that was to be intended for the Polish Navy of an early project based on ships built for India, i.e. 3 ships/on Krivak class family, and this early project was to be built for Poland in the Nikolaev shipyard.
I haven't gotten to the source of this information yet, but in some NTW there was information that the Polish Navy was to take over a Krivak class ship built in 1975, and there were also suggestions that the USSR was offering us to take over a ship that was built in 1980, it was to be a ship as successor to ORP Warszawa (Project 56AE)
What I have presented now is the first version, the second is the one above about the project for Poland.
In general, the project for Poland was allegedly different from the ships for India.
I don't know anything else.
I will check the source of this information later when I read the articles.
And here's the question, has anyone of you heard of something like this and guesses which project it could be about?

 

[Dilandu]

I will tell you a story, although I do not know how much of it is true and how much is a legend.
It was the 1980s, when the successor to ORP Warszawa (Project 56AE) was being thought of.
Then it was possible to build a new Krivak ship for the Polish Navy.
It was supposed to be a ship that was to be intended for the Polish Navy of an early project based on ships built for India, i.e. 3 ships,

Er... are you sure you are talking about Krivak-class (Project 1135), and not Kashin-class (Project 61)?

Because the ships, build for India in 1980s, were of Project 61-ME class. Not Project 1135. And Poland eventually replaced old "Warszawa" with Project 61 "Smely" (renamed also "Warszawa")

 

[USSEssex]

It's just that I don't really know what it is either.
But I can say that Project 61MP later ORP Warszawa was temporarily for 7 years until the Krivak class ship was taken over.
As the successor to ORP Warszawa (Project 56AE), Krivak was selected, the USSR recommended 1135/1135M, 2 Krivak-class ships were to be taken over from the plans, but for some unknown reason this did not happen, perhaps for financial reasons, so Project 61MP was then taken over.
And so it was supposed to be in the 80s as the successor of ORP Warszawa Project 56AE at least with these selected Krivak class ships.
I mentioned above that the acquisition of Krivak was supposed to take place after 7 years from the moment of using Project 61MP, so I'm not sure if the USSR could later prepare some version of Krivak for Poland, so I bet that it also applies to the successor of the first ORP Warszawa.
This Polish Krivak was supposed to be built especially for Poland, just like the project.
However, I think it was supposed to be a ship that was supposed to be based on the Krivak family with an emphasis on the Krivak III because the Talwar class is a modified Krivak III, and compared to the design for India, it is an early project (depends when the Krivak works for the India, maybe something will be settled this way).
Simply put, as I understand it
early project -> Krivak project for India, because it was supposed to be a ship similar to the Indian Talwar class ships, and this is probably the alleged project for Poland.

But the final Talwar class, which was built to order by India in the 1990s, is not a project for Poland.

Perhaps an echo of this design for Poland as an early variant may have actually been offered to the Polish Navy in the 1980s, when that failed they offered it to India see later Talwar class, or it could have been otherwise.
It would make sense, considering that the Poles wanted Krivak.

Well, I already have my reasoning, because I do not know if it is true, the thread is to be examined, but I do not rule out that it could have been so.
So there might be something to it.
Anyway, I'll try to find the source of this information later.

 

[USSEssex]

So I have some more data.

In 1988, on the basis of the very successful project 11351, Northern BKP developed an export variant of the unit marked with the number 11356. Instead of RBU 6000, it was planned to install racks for quadruple Uran launchers.
The changes were also to affect the ship's radio-electronic equipment and architecture, preserving the layout of project 11351 units.
Two versions of the project 11356 were prepared, which were offered to Poland and India.
While the Polish variant did not arouse interest, its Indian mutation will soon appear in the metal.
After several years of work, a new, multi-role strike unit was created, armed with, among others, 16 Uran launchers, 48 Kinzhal rocket launchers, a new 100 mm gun, 4 AK-630M1-2(I will not quote further, because these are less significant changes, because this is a fairly well-known variant, Essex).

quote for Nowa Technika Wojskowa nr 05/2000 article Dozorowce typu Buriewiestnik part II by Władimir Zabłockij , Witalij Kostriczenko in page 54.
English translation by me.
in Nowa Technika Wojskowa 9/2003 article Hinduskie fregaty typu Talwar by Robert Rochowicz and Andrzej Kiński they write this way

Two standards for completing such a unit were envisaged
the so-called Polish variant for the Warsaw Pact countries, and the Indian variant for non-European friendly states, primarily for India.
The project offer of the unit was created in 1988, and its images known today show a multi-purpose frigate-class strike ship with a standard displacement of about 3,500 tons

I am quoting the article
Next in the article is this

Initially, the project did not arouse much interest.
The Warsaw Pact countries, due to widespread economic problems and other burdens with other armaments programs in the 1980s, did not think about ordering large and expensive surface vessels from the USSR.
In turn, the Indians tried to support their own shipbuilding and defense industry, build most types of warships in the country.
Despite this, the Northern BKP developed further variants of the 11356 project, constantly offering them to foreign recipients.

translate by me.
The second project 11356 you probably know is the one with Kinzhal missiles, or at least that's how I feel.
Indian project 11356 here, drawing tomasz grotnik

So I have confirmation of the project for export Krivak for the Polish Navy, only that it is project 11356, but it is probably not a version with Kinzhal missiles which not many people can associate, the USSR would never develop such a version for Poland, I would be surprised if that was the case, but I don't think it's possible.
Unfortunately, I found little information about the Polish 11356, I haven't found the graphics so far, maybe someone can help me find more information and a silhouette of the Polish version.
I'm not sure, but what the first source writes at the beginning may refer to the version for Poland.
And what Rochowicz describes as the so-called Polish variant is actually a variant for Poland, or mainly for this country, as is the case with India.
I have not yet reached the source of information that mentioned the construction in the Ukrainian shipyard.
But with this Polish 11356 it's true, he existed, 100%.
And why it was similar to that for India, you have above.
@Kingpin6100 comment?

 

[Dilandu]

But I can say that Project 61MP later ORP Warszawa was temporarily for 7 years until the Krivak class ship was taken over.

Hm, understood. Thank you for the data!

 

[USSEssex]

Hm, understood. Thank you for the data!

In the subject of project 11356.
I am a bit surprised that the USSR decided to export this ship to Poland.
First project 956 for Poland (there is talk of 956P) now 11356, I'm starting to wonder how many export projects there were for the Polish Navy from the beginning to the end of communism, and what is the state of knowledge on this subject in Russian sources.

 

[USSEssex]

I have here data on what destroyer Polish admirals wanted in the 1956.
According to the Polish staff officers, the destroyer should have the following armament: 4xII 100 mm and 4xIV 45 mm guns, 4 rocket batteries, classic and rocket depth charge launchers, mine tracks and Parawan trawl.
The superstructures of such a ship should have streamlined shapes and be devoid of portholes.
Its equipment would be complemented by the following radars: air surveillance, artillery and torpedo radars, navigational circle observation and surface observation radars, as well as a hydrolocation station and a modern Combat Information Centre.
Sources for data Morze Statki i Okręty 1/2000 article Klasyczne niszczyciele PMW part I by Robert Rochowicz, Morze Statki i Okręty wydanie specjalne 1/2015 article Dzieje niszczyciela ORP Warszawa by Robert Rochowicz, and Morze 10/2017(25) Spadkobiercy wojennych tradycji by Robert Rochowicz .
It was not possible to design such a destroyer in Poland and then build it in a Polish shipyard.
So I wonder if the USSR designed a destroyer for the Polish Navy in the 1950s.
In 1956, the Poles criticized the Soviet destroyers, saying that the 30bis project was obsolete.
in the end, project 30bis was purchased because there was no other choice, and project 56 at that time the USSR did not give us, so the destroyers 30 bis were ships bought a bit out of compulsion but also not wanted because ... they did not want it.

 

[Dilandu]

According to the Polish staff officers, the destroyer should have the following armament: 4xII 100 mm and 4xIV 45 mm guns, 4 rocket batteries, classic and rocket depth charge launchers, mine tracks and Parawan minesweeper.

Hm. No torpedo tubes? Looks like they wanted a modern destroyer of Soviet design with dual-purpose artillery, but did not knew about 130-mm SM-2-1 mounts (used on Project 56) and wanted the 100-mm SM-5-1 mounts instead (used as secondaries on Sverdlov-class cruisers).

Four quadruple 45-mm guns are clearly SM-20-ZIF.

About the "rocket batteries" - I suppose, it may be WM-18, Polish version of BM-14-17 (the naval version of 140-mm MRLS BM-14).

So I wonder if the USSR designed a destroyer for the Polish Navy in the 1950s.

Not sure. It seems possible, but I never heard about it.

 

[USSEssex]

Not sure. It seems possible, but I never heard about it.

And will you ask or look for information on, if you have access to, Russian books or articles? Maybe there's a reference or something.
I don't know the Russian destroyer projects from the 1950s and the late 1940s, so I don't know if the USSR already had a destroyer project that could meet the expectations of Polish staff officers, if so, they could offer us such a destroyer.

Nothing was written about the torpedo launcher, so I don't know anything about it, but I'll check later.

 

[Dilandu]

And will you ask or look for information on, if you have access to, Russian books or articles?

I'll try to see what I could find.

 

[USSEssex]

I see that I wasn't the only one who noticed that the Polish admirals dreamed of a destroyer something like the Akizuki/Super Akizuki class, because when I read this data, something told me that they meant the SM 5 1 guns.
Let me remind you that shortly after the modernization of ORP Błyskawica, the production of ammunition for the 100 mm B 24 guns ended, and the B 34U guns at that time had poor firepower, and rather no twin B 34 guns were built, besides, they could be obsolete guns and they were thinking of a modern destroyer.

And so, in the articles where the data came from, what the admirals wanted, the author did not write anything about torpedo tubes, although the artillery and torpedo radar is mentioned.
I think that the Poles at that time could have known the Akizuki-class destroyers, even from books, they could have adapted the idea later, hence the 100 mm guns, because the Poles generally knew about the project 56.
In 1956, a commission met and in a memo it was written that the project 30bis was obsolete and the destroyers of the project 56 had design flaws.

 

[Dilandu]

I see that I wasn't the only one who noticed that the Polish admirals dreamed of a destroyer something like the Akizuki/Super Akizuki class, because when I read this data, something told me that they meant the SM 5 1 guns.

Yep, it's pretty interesting. Apparently, Polish admirals did not consider a Project 56 armament of two twin 130-mm dual-purpose mount satisfying. Or, alternatively, they may be informed that SM-2-1 mount is top secret and could not be delivered to Poland in near future. Anyway, they apparently decided to use the SM-5-1, which was well-known and mass-produced.

In 1956, a commission met and in a memo it was written that the project 30bis was obsolete and the destroyers of the project 56 had design flaws.

Interesting! I wonder, what kind of flaws they found in the design?

 

[USSEssex]

Interesting! I wonder, what kind of flaws they found in the design?

I do not know the details, probably such information is in the Polish archive.
Then maybe I will write where my interest in the Polish Navy comes from.

In general, I have many interests, even though I'm 24, including technology, politics, history, these interests of mine would be at least 12.
Privately, I have also been the owner of my Polish discord server for almost 5 years, now around 350 people and most people are those who watch anime/manga, like history like me, although they also have other interests.

I have been interested in the navy for a long time, but I started to be more interested in it in 2021 when I started working on the Polish tech tree for wows, and from that moment I started reading articles, looking for information, the beginnings were not easy but with time I organize information.

After 2 years of work, I can say that I have materials for 5-6 branches (2 lines of submarines, 2 lines of destroyers: one (120 mm guns) and one split (130 mm guns), 1 line of cruisers + possible split for cruisers, with an option for an additional line of submarines and an additional split for destroyers (100 mm guns) if there are such materials, but it's not a priority for now, and at the moment I have 2 lines of submarines quite ready because there are a lot of materials here.
I rely mainly on historical materials, these are projects, concepts, rearming, existing ships, etc. I also allow myself to use hypothetical ships, e.g. from naval programs (read model by WG), although I am aware that there will be situations where, unfortunately, there will be fake ships (read made by WG), due to lack of materials.
Concluding this thread, I will say that my project of the Polish tech tree can be completed even in about 5-7 years.


And I read articles/books, in the meantime, if I find something, I analyze whether I can use it to work on the tech tree, and I write here.

I haven't written to you about the project 7U destroyer ORP Sławny (as they called it) ex Slavnyj yet, but I can write about it.

Before I wrote about mtb, I found another variants of modernization of the Wicher-class destroyers, all the ones I found so far, you can find on the previous page.

 

[Dilandu]

After 2 years of work, I can say that I have materials for 5-6 branches (2 lines of submarines, 2 lines of destroyers: one (120 mm guns) and one split (130 mm guns), 1 line of cruisers + possible split for cruisers, with an option for an additional line of submarines and an additional split for destroyers (100 mm guns) if there are such materials, but it's not a priority for now, and at the moment I have 2 lines of submarines quite ready because there are a lot of materials here.

Extremely interesting! I didn't realize, that there are so many data still in existence (frankly, I thought that most of Poland pre-war naval archives were lost). Thank you for sharing this valuable data with us!

 

[USSEssex]

Extremely interesting! I didn't realize, that there are so many data still in existence (frankly, I thought that most of Poland pre-war naval archives were lost). Thank you for sharing this valuable data with us!

Some of the materials are projects for tenders, or ship offers, as in the case of Italian projects for Poland, have survived, another part of the projects is probably in Russian archives that are guarded by the army, for example, in Poland, Russian projects for the Polish Navy are poorly documented, in the case of project 956 for Poland, for some reason there are no documents in Poland.
The materials for the lines I wrote about are some of the projects I know, I have provided blueprints here, others are, for example, from tenders, and I also counted Italian projects, but I don't have blueprints and data of all projects, so 5-6 branches are estimates, but they are quite correct.
Of course, other parts of the documents have been lost or destroyed.
However, I can say that nothing is in order in the Polish archive, some documents from the navy are in other folders, the same is true of other things, no one arranged it there, and to find something you have to go through archival hell.
I know this because a friend told me about it.
Unfortunately, I don't have materials for battlecruisers/battleships and aircraft carriers, here you can only count on naval programs.

 

[USSEssex]

There are some rumors in runet that Polish navy was interested in "something bigger" - a project 1123 helicopter cruiser? - but I wasn't able to find any substance here.

Where does this information come from?
What years does this refer to, do you know?
If that's true, they might be referring to Kresta I/Kresta II.
Looking at the fact that we found project 956 for Poland.

I haven't written yet unless we have a mention of the project of an American submarine for Poland from the tender that was in 1935.

I cannot confirm it, but it is quite possible that it is true, because this information comes from uninventoried files of the Polish archives, it is possible that even the drawing has been preserved.

I still know that the design of the destroyer of the Caen shipyard from 1926 has been preserved, which is available in several variants (these are not shipyard drawings of built destroyers of the Wicher class).
It was featured once, but it was years ago, even I didn't see the project, but I know it was from the CAW archive, so it's probably there.

 

[Dilandu]

Where does this information come from?
What years does this refer to, do you know?

Can't recall it, and frankly, I strongly suspect that it's just a rumor, without any substance at all.

 

[USSEssex]

And I found information
in Okręty Polskiej Marynarki Wojennej tom 12 title ORP Warszawa here write that the project 61MP was to be for 7 years, and the Soviet Union undertook to hand over the project 1135.1E warship to the Polish Navy.
Here

Has anyone heard of such a designation?

 

[Dilandu]

project 1135.1E warship

Hm. So, it was supposed to be project 11351 (export version)? Not the project 1135?

To clarify: the project 1135 is an anti-submarine frigate, armed with anti-submarine/anti-ship missiles. The project 11351 is a patrol ship version of the same design - without anti-submarine missiles, but with bow 100-mm gun and rear hangar for helicopter instead.

So basically Poland wanted a patrol ship, not a frigate.

 

[USSEssex]

It was only written that it was in the contract for the lease of the ship project 61MP of October 6, 1987.
That is, a year earlier than the development of project 11356 for Poland.

 

[Hood]

The Pr.1135.1 would have made an adequate frigate for Poland, not that much different from a Western frigate of that period in concept (ASW reliant on helicopters and ship-launched torpedoes, a gun, a short-range defensive SAM, CIWS). Whether it would have been a sound replacement as a Polish flagship is open to question perhaps, but then having a single Kashin never made much sense given the rest of the navy was comprised of corvettes and coastal vessels beyond a couple of token submarines.

 

[USSEssex]

I have here data on what destroyer Polish admirals wanted in the 1956.
According to the Polish staff officers, the destroyer should have the following armament: 4xII 100 mm and 4xIV 45 mm guns, 4 rocket batteries, classic and rocket depth charge launchers, mine tracks and Parawan trawl.
The superstructures of such a ship should have streamlined shapes and be devoid of portholes.
Its equipment would be complemented by the following radars: air surveillance, artillery and torpedo radars, navigational circle observation and surface observation radars, as well as a hydrolocation station and a modern Combat Information Centre.
Sources for data Morze Statki i Okręty 1/2000 article Klasyczne niszczyciele PMW part I by Robert Rochowicz, Morze Statki i Okręty wydanie specjalne 1/2015 article Dzieje niszczyciela ORP Warszawa by Robert Rochowicz, and Morze 10/2017(25) Spadkobiercy wojennych tradycji by Robert Rochowicz .

These are the initial assumptions for ships of this class, because the admirals took seriously the concepts of building such ships in Polish shipyards.
in this case, 4 x II 100 mm, 4 x IV 45 mm caliber, 4 batteries of water-water rockets( P 15?), they said that the destroyer should have no less than 5 tubes of 533 mm torpedo tubes( example 1xV).
it was also supposed to have mine tracks with an adequate supply of mines.
They also wrote a hydrolocation station here.
Is this minimum.
And the data I wrote are preliminary assumptions developed at that time for such a destroyer, which, according to Polish officers, was to have strong armament.
Details from Okręty Polskiej Marynarki Wojennej tom 17, title ORP Grom i ORP Wicher niszczyciele projektu 30bis by Grzegorz Nowak, what is written there is the same as what I wrote before, only there were more details.

 

[ptdockyard]

Regarding the Samuel While MTBs- Three were completed as motor gunboats (MGB) with wheelhouses the were more standard to British boats, One for the Free Polish Navy (S-1) and two for the Royal Navy (MGB 47 & 48).

Here are photos of the S-1 and MGB-47. The hull cut out is very clear in both.

 

[USSEssex]

Yes, you can see that the superstructure has been changed.

 

[Dilandu]

4 batteries of water-water rockets( P 15?),

Far too eraly for P-15 missiles. Most likely, as I suggested above -

I suppose, it may be WM-18, Polish version of BM-14-17 (the naval version of 140-mm MRLS BM-14).

- they seems to fit the timescale well.

 

[USSEssex]

water water immediately my first thought was P-15 , although it may be too early for 1956.

 

[USSEssex]

So I remembered something.
There is such a half-legend in Poland.
It is said that the Germans wanted to renovate ORP Wicher, the idea was supposedly created after September 1939 and before April 1940.
The information about the reconstruction of Wicher probably comes from Steyer(polish admiral), but I'm not sure, but so far it hasn't been confirmed in any documents or anything, or at least I don't know anything about it.
Update.
This information is in Wielkie Dni Małej Floty by Jerzy Pertek in page 578. It says that the plan to renovate it and enter Kriegsmarine service as Seerose was abandoned.
@_Sarcasticat_ You know something about it ?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

So I remembered something.
There is such a half-legend in Poland.
It is said that the Germans wanted to renovate ORP Wicher, the idea was supposedly created after September 1939 and before April 1940.
The information about the reconstruction of Wicher probably comes from Steyer(polish admiral), but I'm not sure, but so far it hasn't been confirmed in any documents or anything, or at least I don't know anything about it.
Update.
This information is in Wielkie Dni Małej Floty by Jerzy Pertek in page 578. It says that the plan to renovate it and enter Kriegsmarine service as Seerose was abandoned.
@_Sarcasticat_ You know something about it ?

I have never heard of such a thing. It's possible, but it must not have gotten very far in terms of actual planning.

 

[Dilandu]

water water immediately my first thought was P-15 , although it may be too early for 1956.

WAY too early. In 1956, the design process for P-15 barely started. While it's theoretically possible that Polish naval engineers suggested to use KSCH (SS-N-1 Scrubber) or KSS (naval version of AS-1 Kennel) missiles, it's much more reasonable to assume that they indeed meant WM-18 rocket launchers for unguided rockets. Those were designed at this time in Poland as naval MRLS specifically, and it stand to reason they may want to have destroyer with massive rocket-attack capability.