Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

Josh_TN said:
Manned aircraft likely are a dead end, especially for anyone cost conscious.
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If engineering advancements are supposed to be applicable to make high-performance unmanned aircraft cheaper, there is no reason they shouldn't also apply to manned designs. Of course they would be more expensive than their unmanned counterparts, but there is no excuse for them to be unaffordable.

If you're talking about designs with lesser performance goals, those are useful, but to build an entire air force off of them seems like a poor choice.
 
Josh_TN said:
Over three years yes. Over thirty years?
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Thirty years is a lot of space to lose big by underinvestment into manned. Like two world wars can easily fit in.

It was obvious after American civil war that guns>swords. It didn't prevent Mars-la-Tour to decide fate of France(and arguably launch the whole endless disaster of XXth century), courtesy of Prussian cuirassiers doing their job the same way it was done for last 30 centuries.

And now we don't even have a single LW yet(the closest thing to one "rebelled" during operational test just a couple months ago)

Future will happen at an appropriate moment, but no need to go full Musk. Not because he's necessary wrong. But his ideas are very risky, and one doesn't risk the fate of the nation easily.
 
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F119Doctor said:
I’m not sure what you mean about using fuel as a working fluid as being experimental.

Many aircraft use fuel as a cooling medium, discarding/using the waste heat in the engine burn flow. And engines have been using fueldraulic actuation systems since at least the J58 on the A-12/SR-71.
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You're probably far more of an expert on this than I am, but I distinctly remember reading articles about the disadvantages of using jet fuel for cooling/hydraulics. For example, the F-35 afaik requires a higher grade of fuel than other jets do, owning to the fact that regular jet fuel can gum up the cooling/hydraulics, complicating logistics. And at the end of the day, due to fuel being used for other purposes, a certain fuel fraction is not usable anyways, so I don't see any practical difference between having dedicated cooling and hydraulic fluid.

And I wouldn't be surprised, that due to these additional use cases, the fuel requires additives just like the gas in my lawnmower :D.

The SR-71 example might be an outlier as that was a low-numbers exotic airplane (running on special fuel no less), not meant to be a main workhorse.

You've made an interesting point about the SR-71 dumping the heated up coolant into the engine, is there any indication that the F-35 does that?

Ainen, interesting point about the Russians going for electric actuators, from what was written about the F-35, they haven't worked out that well, mainly due to the increased cooling requirements, hydraulic lines had to be replaced with cooling lines, gaining very little from the process, and the actuators still suffering from heat buildup restricting the time the aircraft can perform demanding manuevers.
 
The fuel used for cooling can be burned in the engine. It's not like there is a differentiation or an additional tank. Idem for the actuators except for a very low fraction but the qty at play are marginals.
In effect, when the jet is burning the fuel that would have been otherwise required for cooling, systems that can't sustain the inherent increase in temperature are shut down gradually. But when this low fuel level is reached, the plane is already reaching its standard mission reserve, hence close to the base.
We obviously don't know what systems are impacted first but it would be dubious that those are the most combat critical ones.
 
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Elysium said:
You're probably far more of an expert on this than I am, but I distinctly remember reading articles about the disadvantages of using jet fuel for cooling/hydraulics. For example, the F-35 afaik requires a higher grade of fuel than other jets do, owning to the fact that regular jet fuel can gum up the cooling/hydraulics, complicating logistics. And at the end of the day, due to fuel being used for other purposes, a certain fuel fraction is not usable anyways, so I don't see any practical difference between having dedicated cooling and hydraulic fluid.

And I wouldn't be surprised, that due to these additional use cases, the fuel requires additives just like the gas in my lawnmower :D.

The SR-71 example might be an outlier as that was a low-numbers exotic airplane (running on special fuel no less), not meant to be a main workhorse.

You've made an interesting point about the SR-71 dumping the heated up coolant into the engine, is there any indication that the F-35 does that?

Ainen, interesting point about the Russians going for electric actuators, from what was written about the F-35, they haven't worked out that well, mainly due to the increased cooling requirements, hydraulic lines had to be replaced with cooling lines, gaining very little from the process, and the actuators still suffering from heat buildup restricting the time the aircraft can perform demanding manuevers.
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The F-35 uses standard USAF Jet-A or JP8.

Yes, many aircraft use fuel for cooling systems, then burning the heated fuel. There is a limit on how hot the fuel can get before it starts breaking down and causing coke deposits in the engine fuel system. The F-22 and F-35 engines have a system to increase fuel flow thru the coolers as needed independently from the burn flow, and return the excess thru a fuel / air heat exchanger to the fuel tank. At low fuel states and low airflow conditions, this can result rising fuel tank temperatures that have to be mitigated either procedurally or activating additional cooling systems.
 
snne said:
Actually, no. Those 6 already built, delivered and still TuAF-owned F-35s need to go under a deep maintenance, update and be used for extensive training again. And the production slots for the rest of the ordered planes were given to USAF so imo Turkey will have to wait at least until 2032-33 for new planes.

So TuAF might as well bite the bullet and wait for Kaan. The Navy OTOH would benefit greatly from having F-35Bs at their disposal but as I've mentioned, they are already commited to 3 different -indigenous - aircraft types as replacements (which is not ideal but fine enough):



All of this meaning: Hold your horses...

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3 instructor pilots have already been trained but obviously since it was long ago they'd have to go back to training again if Turkey ever returns to the program.

As a fun fact, the similators were already shipped to Turkey when it got kicked out.

GFQs5RRXwAAZ0IJ
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Update:

Turkish MoND Güler:

We have 6 (TurAF-owned) F-35s in the US. When they saw that we made KAAN, their thoughts changed. They say they can give it. We have re-sent our offer to buy F-35s from the US.
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We insist that our production share of the F35 aircraft be returned to us. We have submitted out proposals and stated our desire to purchase a total of 40 F-35s.
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We cancelled 79 F16V upgrade
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Now, in our last talks with the Americans, regarding the S-400s, we rejected all of them, 'You will do this, you will do that.' Right now, the Americans do not have any objections regarding the S-400s, provided that they are in the center that we accept."
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https://turdef.com/article/turkiye-changes-its-f-16-block-70-and-f-35-strategy

FFS not this sh.t again...

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Choose one, dammit. You can't buy 40 F-16s, 40 Eurofighters and an unknown number of 40 F-35s all at the same time :mad: TurAF's maintenance personnel are having their lives flash before their eyes upon seeing this news right now...

To add, American law is clear. There is no F-35s with S-400s still in Turkey...
 
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snne said:
To add, American law is clear. There is no F-35s with S-400s still in Turkey...
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Maybe Turkey could give their SA-21 Growler batteries directly to Ukraine.

snne said:
Choose one, dammit. You can't buy 40 F-16s, 40 Eurofighters and an unknown number of 40 F-35s all at the same time :mad: TurAF's maintenance personnel are having their lives flash before their eyes upon seeing this news right now...
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That would be maintanence nightmare for the Turkish AF's ground crews.
 
NMaude said:
Maybe Turkey could give their SA-21 Growler batteries directly to Ukraine.
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I'd hate to beat the dead horse again, check my post below:


snne said:
Military Equipment Sales are very meticulous deals and there are all kinds of export controls in place for potential resales of equipment; simply put you can't give the equipment to a 3rd party without Russian blessing. Remember all that noise about (ex-East) German howitzers (or was that some other kind of artillery equipment?) that Lithuania wanted to provide to Ukraine in the first year of the war?


Secondly but most importantly, Turkey and Russia actually share not just borders but also a long history of bloodly conflict and rivalry. The fact that Turkey isn't located at the western end of Europe like France, UK or Germany (Central-West) means that they don't get to be reckless with their actions against Russia because no one else will have their back as seen in the 2015 Su-24 shoot-down incident.

And lastly, international politics. The whole reason Turkey purchased the S-400s in spite of the US in the firs place was to give them a political middle finger due to their meddling in Turkish politics and also American actions in Syria that affects Turkish security (because unlike the US, Turkey doesn't come from thousands of kms away to right down its border with Syria, what happens there actually has consequences for Turkey)

View attachment 737025
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To that effect, maybe check these as well: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/search/1232230/?t=post&c[thread]=17732&c[users]=snne&o=relevance
 
That's pretty much Turkey's role in NATO though, the broker between East and West. Yes, from a Western perspective, sometimes their decisions create headaches but they also do tasks no other western country could at times such as negotiating prisoners exchange between Russia and Ukraine.

Pete Hegseth, trump's new defense secretary pick, might change all of that given that being a armageddon christian nationalist (a sect of christian nationalism that thinks America has been positioned by God to be the protector of Israel and helps ushering the end times by destroying Al-aqsa and rebuild the Jewish temple for the Jews). He thinks of Erdy as nothing more but an ISIS leader in suite. If trump let him run wild, certainly no f-35 for turkey or any high end weapon sales.
 
Loosely related to the F-35:

www.twz.com

Australian F-35 Tests Expeditionary Base Concept

Dura-Base matting can be used for air base repairs as well as for helping establish austere operating locations across the Pacific. Dura-Base matting can be used for air base repairs as well as for helping establish austere operating locations across the Pacific.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
 
Belgium signs off on their F-35A certification

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A big milestone for Belgian Air Force!
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This afternoon, Major General Thierry Dupont, Executive Director of the Belgian Military Airworthiness Authority, signed the military type certificate for the F-35A.
✅

This certification confirms that the design of this state-of-the-art fighter jet meets all airworthiness standards.
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A key step forward for Belgium’s air defense!
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cheers
 
FighterJock said:
So it all depends on whether Turkey get's rid of the S-400 SAMs before they are allowed to return to the F-35 program. Makes sense really.
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The ball is in Erdy's court. I suspect that he will bite the bullet in the end and get rid of those SA-21s to get their already built F-35As.
 
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Elysium said:
Kinda confused about this (and sorry for off topic) but why can't Turkey buy SAMs from some other, geopolitcally unaffiliated country, like South Korea?
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They can. Turkey wanted significant technology transfer with their SAM purchase, something the US, and the Europeans, weren't willing to provide. Amusingly Turkey believed Russia with the S400 but then not surprisingly it wasn't provided as promised.

They also considered a Chinese system in 2013 but that also didn't go anywhere. End result is no F-35 due to that S400 purchase, a silly decision by Turkey that has set back their Air Force and lost their Industry significant work on the program.
 
I just watched this interesting Sandboxx video concerning an active RF-decoy just introduced to the F-35:


Earlier this year, the F-35 program office started procuring BriteCloud Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) jammers — a new countermeasure meant to confuse and disrupt inbound radar-guided missiles.
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Let's talk about what this system does, and how the F-35 can use it in combat.
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From the wikipedia, BriteCloud:

BriteCloud is a self-contained expendable digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) jammer developed by Selex ES (merged into Leonardo since 2017) to help protect military aircraft. The decoy was launched by Selex ES at a conference held at the Churchill War Rooms, London on 6 November 2013.[1]

Background​

Military aircraft face a highly developed airborne and surface-based RF threat. Mobile surface-to-air missiles with highly accurate RF tracking systems present a formidable threat when used in pop-up mode, and many older systems have been retrofitted with modern electronics that have greatly enhanced their capabilities. The modern systems are particularly difficult to counter, and have an array of Electronic Protection Measures (EPM) at their disposal.
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FighterJock said:
So the UK is still down for 138 F-35Bs according to the LM fast facts attachment that you posted GTX, I wonder IF the UK will eventually get the rest of the official order when the UK Strategic Defence Review is due.
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There has been a long standing, sort of agreement for neither the UK MoD or Lockheed Martin to actually admit publically that the UK will never purchase the original intended order of 138 F-35. It's convenient for both to maintain this facade....but no-one who has looked at the UK's intentions or budget believes it is in anyway credible any more.

The Tranche 2 order for 27 is nailed on. But even if the Gov manages to increase the defence budget to 2.5% from 2028 onwards there will be zero headroom in the combat air budget for at least a decade onwards, probably more like 15 years.

UK MoD is still talking about 138 over the lifetime of the programme....but apart from hypothetical small purchases as attrition replacements, or a small quantity of aircraft ordered post 2040 to keep an airwing operational on the QE Class for their full 50 year lifespan (c2065), if there is no unmanned alternative, I don't think there is anyone who now thinks the total fleet will ever exceed 74. You have to wonder if the F-35B as a variant will even be in production then anyway...

Bottom line is 138 F-35B would come very close to outnumbering our operational fighter fleet in its entirety at the moment (Typhoon and F-35), Typhoon MLU will consume significant funds to see it to its end of service....and GCAP will consume everything else....and truth be told thats a good thing. F-35B should not be the UK's main combat aircraft, its a good aircraft for certain roles but the main role was always going to be played by something else. The endless delays from the programme over many years have basically guaranteed that the UK would shift its focus elsewhere..
 
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And of course the GCAP/Tempest going to be coming on stream in the 2030s, it is really sad that the 138 F-35s were never officially ordered due to past governments messing with the procurement and of course the whole miss handling of not deciding between the F-35B and F-35C.
 
FighterJock said:
And of course the GCAP/Tempest going to be coming on stream in the 2030s, it is really sad that the 138 F-35s were never officially ordered due to past governments messing with the procurement and of course the whole miss handling of not deciding between the F-35B and F-35C.
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The whole indecision around F-35B and C made not a jot of difference. It's the post 2008 financial position, 2010 SDSR which cut the military, the COIN focus of GWOT that sent the Army in the wrong direction....and most of all the delays in F-35 that have got us to the position today. F-35 moving to the right constantly, in its development, then in service entry and now in capability terms, particularly around weaponry, have meant that as a programme it has pushed up against the Typhoon replacement, which is crucial to maintaining the UK's sovereign combat air industry. Which was always going to happen around this time. And its never going to win that battle...its got no friends against the might of BAE, RAF, Unions and the Treasury...and it just doesn't do what we need our main combat aircraft to do, it was never supposed to either.
 
Given that there's now an informal Cold War 2.0 due Putin's antics the UK may long term be able to fulfil its F-35B order due to a significant increase in their annual defence budget (It's quite clear now that HM's government understands they've allowed the UK's defence forces to draw down too much).
 
timmymagic said:
The whole indecision around F-35B and C made not a jot of difference. It's the post 2008 financial position, 2010 SDSR which cut the military, the COIN focus of GWOT that sent the Army in the wrong direction....and most of all the delays in F-35 that have got us to the position today. F-35 moving to the right constantly, in its development, then in service entry and now in capability terms, particularly around weaponry, have meant that as a programme it has pushed up against the Typhoon replacement, which is crucial to maintaining the UK's sovereign combat air industry. Which was always going to happen around this time. And its never going to win that battle...its got no friends against the might of BAE, RAF, Unions and the Treasury...and it just doesn't do what we need our main combat aircraft to do, it was never supposed to either.
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This.
The 2006 order for 138 airframes "thing" was a one on one replacement for the entire "Joint Force Harrier" when it was composed of four sqns of Harrier Gr7/Gr9/Gr9A, two sqns of SHAR FA2 and an OCU.
Now the entire Joint Force Harrier was scraped without direct replacement...
That left the requirement for JCA (AKA F-35B RAF/RN) to be something like "enough to have one Aircraft Carrier operational plus a small OCU".
Between upgrades to the Typhoon force and Tempest/GCA i fear that the money for further batches of F-35B will be scarce.
Unless Putin bombs the Baltics... (and i really dont believe he will
 
NMaude said:
Given that there's now an informal Cold War 2.0 due Putin's antics the UK may long term be able to fulfil its F-35B order due to a significant increase in their annual defence budget (It's quite clear now that HM's government understands they've allowed the UK's defence forces to draw down too much).
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Significant increase in the MOD budget?
You are an optimistic :)
 
NMaude said:
I think this will happen as NATO members got a very unpleasant wakeup call when Putin decided to go on his Ukrainian "Adventure" on February 24th, 2022.
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The reality is that Western NATO is relatively safe and that Poland and the Baltics would take the blow. The UK is in dire financial straights and is not expanding its MoD budget in my lifetime. Also quite honestly Russia is a spent force in the near term.
 
NMaude said:
I think this will happen as NATO members got a very unpleasant wakeup call when Putin decided to go on his Ukrainian "Adventure" on February 24th, 2022.
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Like, Russia never even was a threat to UK in history (fishing boat shooting doesn't count). UK was - 3 times. Last time Russian forces were in western Europe was in 1814. Since 1991, an additional 2 sets of borders appeared, and Russian army long since lost its ability to do a continental push(if anything, logistics alone ensure operational depth of Russian army is within low 3 digits).
Nothing really changed recently in this sense - before, expeditionary forces were needed if Russia(or anyone else) will push back.
Now, some expeditionary forces are needed because Russia(or anyone else who may) pushed back. Some, because against a superior alliance at its doorstep, conflict is rather likely to take undesirable forms.

And that's the point of misunderstanding - it's easy to write about Russian threat, but realistically it's evaluated as expeditionary warfare. It will forever come second to problems at home.
This is not wrong, this isn't right, it's the way it is. It easily explains why countries around the global west are so into f-35 - because it is in fact exactly what all of them need, just don't read into word "defense" too much. It's also why GCAP is designed the way it is designed - because, again, unlike EF-2000 and even F-22, which were meant to win contested air superiority, GCAP assumes it as a given, and looks further(if deeper effects can be achieved).
 
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defence-industry.eu

Lockheed Martin begins production of Germany’s first F-35 fighter jet

Germany’s acquisition of the F-35A is part of a broader effort to replace its ageing Panavia Tornado fleet, which currently supports NATO’s Nuclear Sharing programme.
defence-industry.eu defence-industry.eu

Lockheed Martin has officially begun production of the first F-35A Lightning II fighter jet for Germany. The milestone was celebrated on 5 December with a ceremonial signing of the aircraft’s centre fuselage section at Lockheed Martin’s production facilities.

cheers
 
I stumbled across this video from Military Mechanics a couple days ago concerning the F-35C and why it's a good fit for the USMC:


The United States Marine Corps' acquisition of the F-35C Lightning II marks a transformative step in its ability to project power and maintain dominance in complex global environments. This carrier-capable stealth fighter is tailored for long-range missions, advanced precision strikes, and seamless integration with U.S. Navy carrier strike groups, offering the Marine Corps unmatched versatility and reach. The F-35C’s unique capabilities were recently demonstrated when Marine Corps pilots conducted precision airstrikes against Houthi rebel targets in Yemen, showcasing its ability to execute high-stakes missions in contested regions.
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The F-35C brings significant advantages to the USMC’s operational toolkit. Its extended range enables missions deep into hostile territory without requiring immediate refueling, while its stealth design ensures survivability against advanced air defense systems. The aircraft’s sensor fusion and state-of-the-art avionics give pilots an integrated, real-time picture of the battlespace, enabling more effective targeting and coordination. These features are particularly critical in asymmetrical conflicts, such as the fight against the Houthi rebels, where precision and situational awareness are paramount to minimize collateral damage and achieve strategic goals.
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The F-35C’s carrier compatibility also strengthens the Marine Corps’ expeditionary capabilities. Operating from Navy aircraft carriers, Marine pilots can support operations across vast maritime and littoral theaters, bridging the gap between land-based airpower and naval strike capabilities. This ability allows the USMC to respond rapidly to crises, whether delivering precision strikes, supporting ground forces, or engaging in humanitarian and disaster relief efforts.
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00:00 - 01:31 / Introduction
01:31 - 05:51 / F-35C Lightning II Flight Characteristics and Design
05:51 - 08:43 / Unique Role of the F-35C and Sensor Suit
08:43 - 11:16 / Network-Centric Capabilities
11:16 - 12:53 / Weapon Systems
12:53 - End / Conclusion
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I still fail to see how requiring the USMC to devote 4 squadrons to fill out the USN's deliberately under-filled carrier air wings* is supposed to be good for the Corps.

However, now that the USMC has decided to shift 2 more squadrons to F-35Cs instead of F-35Bs (for an end-strength of 12 F-35B and 6 F-35C squadrons) USMC operations will see some benefit from having to carry the USN's load for years. Of course the USN won't pay for the added cost the USMC has to bear for tooling, staffing, etc to maintain two versions of the F-35 instead of the one it had wanted.


* The USMC has been providing 4 F/A-18 squadrons to fill the holes in CVWs since the 1990s, letting the USN get away with not buying all the aircraft it actually needs.
 
BlackBat242 said:
Of course the USN won't pay for the added cost the USMC has to bear for tooling, staffing, etc to maintain two versions of the F-35 instead of the one it had wanted.
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It would appear then that the USN needs to be compelled by Congress to start paying its fair share.

On another note I picked up a copy today of the book "F-35: The Inside Story of the Lightning II".
 
NMaude said:
It would appear then that the USN needs to be compelled by Congress to start paying its fair share.

On another note I picked up a copy today of the book "F-35: The Inside Story of the Lightning II".
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IMO, it is the USMC that needlessly wastes tonnage for little gain in a peer conflict. How many Burke’s and Connie’s can you have for 31 landing platforms?
 

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