Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

snne said:
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Indeed, from several hundred km away under israeli EW they detected a stealth fighter?:D With such a sophisticated system, it's a wonder any targets got destroyed, especially around Tehran itself. They likely detected a spoofed image of an F-15 about to launch ALBMs at them.

What's also noteworthy is that the F-35 isn't an F-117 in that it does have advanced ESM and it will see and categorise the radar long before the radar sees it, the display then shows the effective range of that radar against their current config. so that they can fly around it, or destroy it depending on the mission.
 
Forest Green said:
Indeed, from several hundred km away under israeli EW they detected a stealth fighter?:D With such a sophisticated system, it's a wonder any targets got destroyed, especially around Tehran itself. They likely detected a spoofed image of an F-15 about to launch ALBMs at them.

What's also noteworthy is that the F-35 isn't an F-117 in that it does have advanced ESM and it will see and categorise the radar long before the radar sees it, the display then shows the effective range of that radar against their current config. so that they can fly around it, or destroy it depending on the mission.
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As far as I ascertain the F-35I is not certified for the Israeli ALBMs so in that case they are flying in country and deploying the standard set of weapons on their assigned targets. Makes sense, give the F-15s the long range targets suitable for ALBMs and cruise missiles and let the F-35s go after the others with PGMs.
 
Beyond the possible bad faith of not having acquired the F-35, were the people in the audience aware of all of these restrictions (which, in my opinion, also depend on the degree of involvement in the program and the level of alliance with the USA).

Former president of Türkiye's #defense acquisitions agency SSB on (...) #F35 preconditions:

-Paying huge sums for the F35 isn't the problem, it's the utter dependence on the US that creates.
-We couldn't fly our jets in 1974 because the US refused to provide their spare tires! Even the tiniest sanctions can have huge impacts.
-F-35 requires regular code updates and a unique password just to turn on, that is provided to customers by the US daily. What if they stop giving it to you?
-US completely oversees and remotely controls your entire F-35 supply chain. What you need, when you need it, how many, you don't tell them, they tell you. And you have to pay to get it.
-An F-35 engine overhaul center was going to be set up in Türkiye. But Americans said there would be a restricted section within it that would only employ US staff and be off limits to Turkish staff. What kind of partnership is this?
-No technical access to the hot sections of the engines whatsoever.
-No access to US-provided avionics or source codes.
-Even the old RAM paint that gets scraped off before repainting the aircraft gets shipped back to the US, to keep us from reverse-engineering the chemicals.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1854875863948366288
View: https://x.com/TurkishCentury/status/1854875863948366288
 
Amazing how people do forgot so fast that it´s a transformational aircraft: there are countries with people dying in trenches, collecting their citizen body parts from Missiles attacks... and those that can zip through a bully airspace without a single loss waging near Biblical havoc.

Yeah Türkyiye, make your own educated choice.
 
TomcatViP said:
Amazing how people do forgot so fast that it´s a transformational aircraft: there are countries with people dying in trenches, collecting their citizen body parts from Missiles attacks... and those that can zip through a bully airspace without a single loss waging near Biblical havoc.

Yeah Türkyiye, make your own educated choice.
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Türkyiye Is under no threat that requires the F-35. I can easily see a justification for relying on more independent technology, regardless of what one thinks of the current government.
 
Josh_TN said:
Türkyiye Is under no threat that requires the F-35. I can easily see a justification for relying on more independent technology, regardless of what one thinks of the current government.
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Well if Turkey had brought the jets back home, the biggest benefit they'd bring is;

1_) For TAI to be able to inspect the whole aircraft they've built important components for, so that they can get a better understanding of "what makes a 5th gen, a 5th gen?"

Meaning: Being able to throughly inspect the whole aircraft and being an important industrial partner of the program are not the same thing.

2_) what tactics to employ against enemy low observable aircraft (F-35 in particular, some of its users are quite antagonistic towards Turkey).

At the end of the day,, Turkish institutes still managed to learn how to design and build a fifth gen thanks to their contributions to the JSF program, but they'd have gotten a better understanding of their capabilities and doctrinal usage if both TAI and TurAF had been able to use and inspect it.

3_) Kaan wouldn't have become a heavy strike aircraft at the last moment to cover both it's original intended role and F-35's role; instead it'd have stayed as a nimble, J-35A- and KF-21B3-class air supremacy fighter.

@TomcatViP Mind you, TurAF chose to be a part of the JSF program, those 6 built-and-delivered F-35s had already been inducted by the time Turkey got kicked out and technically, they still belong to the TurAF; US is just not letting them fly to Turkey.

4_) Turkish Navy wouldn't have to take risks and relentlessly pursue MUM-T and unmanned naval aircraft this early and build a dedicated 60.000 ton aircraft carrier for them.

I've already written a lot about this topic but Turkey getting kicked out is not entirely Erdogan and his government's fault either: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/search/1227685/?t=post&c[thread]=17732&c[users]=snne&o=relevance
 
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While I can understand their frustrations with not being given source code or advanced engine secrets (who wouldn't want that), I don't think the restrictions went far enough. I would be in favor of selling F-35 to Turkey only if they are not allowed to use it with missiles, not allowed to base them in Turkey, and are restricted to only flying them only in the US with contracted US pilots.
 
Josh_TN said:
Türkyiye Is under no threat that requires the F-35.
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One may say that Turkiye is one of very few countries in the west that actually needs them for its own defense, and not just as an crowd-sourced extension of USAF.

Ironically, that's ultimately the reason it can't have them.
 
Ainen said:
One may say that Turkiye is one of very few countries in the west that actually needs them for its own defense, and not just as an crowd-sourced extension of USAF.

Ironically, that's ultimately the reason it can't have them.
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Against who? The Greeks?
 
Josh_TN said:
Against who? The Greeks?
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Yes, Greece in Aegean, which is just barely suppressed by external intervention.
Border skirmishes with Syria and Kurds(which can be literally against anyone who's there).

Compare that to much of Western Europe, which logically should aim at best at the cheapest possible air policing fighter, or Canada, which probably should aim for arctic heavy interceptor.

Yet none of this happens, and none of it happens since long before the F-35.
 
Reading the below BreakingDefense news Report, I stumbled on those lines:

I specifically lead the company’s F-35 program in the U.S. that has more than 1,000 employees dedicated to providing the electromagnetic warfare (EW) system for the F-35. As the EW system provider for the fifth-generation fighter, a role we’ve held since the program’s inception in 2001, we deliver a system that helps protect U.S. and allied forces.

For those unfamiliar with EW, simply put, it is the use of electromagnetic (EM) or directed energy and integrated cyber capabilities to carry out military and intelligence missions.
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Was there any earlier official or firmer confirmation that the F-35 is already using Directed Energy weapons?

breakingdefense.com

F-35 EW system for the future fight - Breaking Defense

Designed with the future in mind, it can keep up with threats that haven’t been developed yet.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
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Josh_TN said:
Against who? The Greeks?
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The one who holds the leash considers Turkey to be their next regional rival after they've neutered Egypt, S.Arabia and in the future, Iran.

If it wasn't for their support, this weak axis of lobbyism against Turkey wouldn't have succeeded in kicking Turkey out and holding their planes captive. To add to all of this, Erdogan's stubborn idiocracy didn't help Turkey's case either since it gave the US the perfect excuse.
 
Ainen said:
Yes, Greece in Aegean, which is just barely suppressed by external intervention.
Border skirmishes with Syria and Kurds(which can be literally against anyone who's there).

Compare that to much of Western Europe, which logically should aim at best at the cheapest possible air policing fighter, or Canada, which probably should aim for arctic heavy interceptor.

Yet none of this happens, and none of it happens since long before the F-35.
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F-35s are hardly necessary for Syria. They would potentially be useful for a conflict with Greece, but I think it quite fanciful that either nation will take a step in that direction in my lifetime. Moreover the Turks clearly have the super airforce in any case. I can see why they would want access to F-35 but it hardly is an imperative to them; if it were they would have never bought S-400s.
 
Josh_TN said:
F-35s are hardly necessary for Syria. They would potentially be useful for a conflict with Greece, but I think it quite fanciful that either nation will take a step in that direction in my lifetime. Moreover the Turks clearly have the super airforce in any case. I can see why they would want access to F-35 but it hardly is an imperative to them; if it were they would have never bought S-400s.
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Syria is quite a prolific in terms of modern IADS, and Turks lost aircraft there (manned and not). Not even counting that there's Russia for them, on both sides.
So if anyone needs it in NATO, it's them.

S-400 was bought after air force fighter literally hunted Erdogan, and NATO allies literally knew it's going to happen and kept silent(after stalling new air defenses for decades).

It's a Varangian guard sort of deal(as far as I understand, they were placed outside of both Turkish IADS and normal chain of command).
As much as f-35 is needed, and as much as it's a far more powerful asset - it is needed for external reasons. No air force weapon could take priority over basic coup prevention, at least not until AF was cleaned out(surviving f-16 to try out an f-35?).
 
TomcatViP said:
Was there any earlier official or firmer confirmation that the F-35 is already using Directed Energy weapons?
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I believe she's talking about microwaves. From the radar. Not a laser. Although perhaps she is dumbing down DIRCM?
 
TomcatViP said:
She clearly made a distinction with EM and Cyber.
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I do not think that atypical. Cyber attacks are often labeled separately from radar spoofing/jamming, with the two together often labeled more generally as electronic attack. I cannot exclude the possibility she is referring to an HPM of some kind but I would doubt it.
 
Josh_TN said:
I cannot exclude the possibility she is referring to an HPM of some kind but I would doubt it.
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That's theoretically a function of the radar. At least for something very close (missile, drone, etc).
 
Also, note that she only mentions directed energy in a general definition of EW, not claiming that the F-35 EW system incorporates DEW capability. She's actually just paraphrasing the first sentence of the Wiki entry for Electronic Warfare:

en.m.wikipedia.org

Electronic warfare - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Electromagnetic warfare or electronic warfare[1] (EW) is warfare involving the use of the electromagnetic spectrum (EM spectrum) or directed energy to control the spectrum....
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I would expect someone with her experience to have a better grasp on the vocabulary than Wiki. Directed energy being a very specific word for a weapon system. Usually, AESA unique capabilities come with Directional, Agile etc...
I still think that there is something to see here.
 
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TomcatViP said:
I would expect someone with her experience to have a better sense on the vocabulary than Wiki. Directed energy being a very specific words for a weapon system. usually, AESA unique capabilities come with Directional, agile etc...
I still think that there is something to see here.
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Wiki may well be cribbing from some doctrinal manual there. But I repeat that she's not talking about the F-35 specifically when she mentions directed energy. People are massively over-reading her comment.
 
snne said:
Well if Turkey had brought the jets back home, the biggest benefit they'd bring is;

1_) For TAI to be able to inspect the whole aircraft they've built important components for, so that they can get a better understanding of "what makes a 5th gen, a 5th gen?"

Meaning: Being able to throughly inspect the whole aircraft and being an important industrial partner of the program are not the same thing.

2_) what tactics to employ against enemy low observable aircraft (F-35 in particular, some of its users are quite antagonistic towards Turkey).

At the end of the day,, Turkish institutes still managed to learn how to design and build a fifth gen thanks to their contributions to the JSF program, but they'd have gotten a better understanding of their capabilities and doctrinal usage if both TAI and TurAF had been able to use and inspect it.

3_) Kaan wouldn't have become a heavy strike aircraft at the last moment to cover both it's original intended role and F-35's role; instead it'd have stayed as a nimble, J-35A- and KF-21B3-class air supremacy fighter.

@TomcatViP Mind you, TurAF chose to be a part of the JSF program, those 6 built-and-delivered F-35s had already been inducted by the time Turkey got kicked out and technically, they still belong to the TurAF; US is just not letting them fly to Turkey.

4_) Turkish Navy wouldn't have to take risks and relentlessly pursue MUM-T and unmanned naval aircraft this early and build a dedicated 60.000 ton aircraft carrier for them.

I've already written a lot about this topic but Turkey getting kicked out is not entirely Erdogan and his government's fault either: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/search/1227685/?t=post&c[thread]=17732&c[users]=snne&o=relevance
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Seems like someone is thinking reverse engineering and copying are good ideas. Good reason not to allow someone to have access to said technologies.
 
GTX said:
Seems like someone is thinking reverse engineering and copying are good ideas. Good reason not to allow someone to have access to said technologies.
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I'm afraid you lack reading comprehension, because that's not at all what I've meant.

Gaining experience in operating something and outright copying it are not the same.

Looking at something and drawing lesson from it and copying are not the same thing (it's not like they'd need to outright copy it anyway, they were a critical supplier to it).

Like it or not, TurAF has never operated low observable aircraft before and this lack of experience will show itself in the amount of time it takes Kaan to become operational.

This could also result in Kaan having some undiscovered design deficiencies due to TurAF not being able list it's requirements from real operational experience.
 
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snne said:
Like it or not, TurAF has never operated low observable aircraft before and this lack of experience will show itself in the amount of time it takes Kaan to become operational.

This could also result in Kaan having some undiscovered design deficiencies due to TurAF not being able list it's requirements from real operational experience.
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Similar situation in France with the FCAS. Very dangerous way to walk that rope. Thanks, at least they have Germany as main partner that is already committing to the F-35.
 
NMaude said:
How may years long is the current F-35 production backlog?
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Just my opinion but with the recent delays I expect the line is sold out until the end of the decade.

Long term if you assume the USAF is taking all projected aircraft then the production line is scheduled to run until approx 2044.
 
TomcatViP said:
They are still under capacity as per initial projections
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Yes under projections but the industry capacity currently cannot meet the projections. Per this article the centre fuselage is the current limitation to going beyond 156 frames a year in 2025

Notably, Lockheed says it remains on track to reach its annual production target of 156 F-35s by 2025.

“The supply chain and production systems continue to execute at a rate to support these future delivery targets,” Taiclet says.

Production of 156 F-35s is expected to be the upper limit of Lockheed’s annual capacity, due largely to output constraints in the production of centre fuselages. Northrop Grumman supplies F-35 fuselages to Lockheed.

However, production capacity could get a boost by the middle of this decade. In February, Lockheed and Northrop announced a partnership with German manufacturer Rheinmetall to produce F-35A centre fuselages in Germany.

Under that agreement, Rheinmetall will build a new facility in Weeze, it said on 3 July. The factory will start fabricating sections in 2025, with an expected production run of at least 400 F-35 fuselages for the air forces of Germany “and other friendly nations”.
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www.flightglobal.com

Lockheed delivery numbers falter as Pentagon stops accepting new F-35s

The Pentagon has stopped taking delivery of new F-35s while manufacturer Lockheed Martin completes flight testing for the "Technical Refresh 3" upgrade package, substantially lowering the company's delivery forecast for 2023.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com

German production will clearly help but I expect an increase in centre fuselages will then identify the next industrial capacity production limit if LM even seeks a higher rate. Would need the USAF to up their rate to the initial projected 80 per year, from the 2013 SAR, and not in the low 40s as currently planned.
 

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