Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

Did not know that the Japanese F-35Bs were going to new squadrons, also any word on the F-35B squadrons yet or is it far too early?
 
Did not know that the Japanese F-35Bs were going to new squadrons, also any word on the F-35B squadrons yet or is it far too early?
I am expecting the Bs to go to JMSDF, not JASDF.

A quick online search shows Japan only having As at the moment. I assume the USMC loaned them a B to do some testing of the reinforced flight decks on their DDHs.
 
Bad news from the UK F-35B fleet… fleet wide flight hours are down in the dumps, averaging 80 hours per aircraft in the most recent year.

The average monthly flying hours for the F-35B Lightning and Poseidon fleets are given in the table below.

Financial YearF-35B LightningPoseidon
2019-2016030
2020-2114080
2021-22210150
2022-23180190

Given average UK fleet size in each of those years of 17 / 19 / 22.5 / 27 F-35Bs, the above numbers translate to annual flight hours per aircraft of 110 / 90 / 110 / 80 hours… well below previous gen fighter fleets such as the F-15/F-16/F-18/Rafale which typically average 200-300 flight hours/year.
 
Flight hours for vstol aircraft are hard fought and hard gained. I get this is especially the case for foreign countries utilizing the f-35b.
 
Flight hours for vstol aircraft are hard fought and hard gained. I get this is especially the case for foreign countries utilizing the f-35b.
The problem is, that means that the pilots aren't getting enough hours to be good (and may not even have enough to be competent!).

Even 200 hours a year is only 2x 2hr flights per week. Admittedly, the UK doesn't have 1hr transits from air base to practice areas, but still. You need time in the air.
 
The idea is to use simulators.

Most of the warfare training of stealth pilots is related to furtivity. Not something you would want to have practiced in open airspace...

C'mon guys, don't fall for the troll.
 
The idea is to use simulators.

Most of the warfare training of stealth pilots is related to furtivity. Not something you would want to have practiced in open airspace...

C'mon guys, don't fall for the troll.

exactly. Plus there could be other factors involved as well such as numbers of pilots.
 
The idea is to use simulators.

Most of the warfare training of stealth pilots is related to furtivity. Not something you would want to have practiced in open airspace...

C'mon guys, don't fall for the troll.
Simulators don't have a G-load.
 
exactly. Plus there could be other factors involved as well such as numbers of pilots.

Lack of pilots while true cannot explain why these pilots aren’t flying enough. There were 33 pilots for 27 F-35Bs in Nov. 2022 (Defence committee testimony) so if the aircraft were flying 80 hours / year the pilots are flying 65 hours/year!

As for simulators reducing the number of real training hours required, is there any good evidence that the F-35 simulators are better than other modern networked tactical simulators used by other types?
 
Last edited:
Other modern fighters have sophisticated tactical simulators too.
Different quality simulators plus the F-35 only has the simulator whereas all the other types you list have two seat options so there might well be cases where the crew decide to do something in the aircraft vs in the simulator.
Lack of pilots while true cannot explain why these pilots aren’t flying enough. There were 33 pilots for 27 F-35Bs in Nov. 2022 (Defence committee testimony) so if the aircraft were flying 80 hours / year the pilots are flying 65 hours/year!
You are making assumptions based upon limited information. Just because there may be less flying hours does not necessarily mean anything for crew proficiency. As already explained, the F-35 training solution places a greater reliance on simulators. It also has a far greater level of capability with greater focus on mission/system management than old fashioned how to fly the aircraft.
 
Do you outurn Electromagnetic waves often?
No, I have never managed to outrun a radio.

But when you're doing weird things and needing to reset circuit breakers etc, taking your hands off the throttle and/or stick, you need to practice that under a g load as well as at 1 gee in the simulator.

Look, I get that there's some exercises that you can only safely do in the simulator. My sub tried a jammed stern planes drill at sea once. I have no clue why the Drill boss wanted to do one at sea, that casualty is very likely to see you approach or exceed crush depth, well past test depth. Even if you do all the responses correctly. As it was, at minimum speed we still got enough of an angle on the ship and went much deeper than I believe anyone expected that the drill was called early. Captain's eyes were the size of dinner plates.

But you need to train like you're going to fight, or else your reflexes will not be correct.
 
I absolutely do agree. But they simply can't fly testing the full stealth capability of the aircraft during peace time if not in a very controlled and isolated airspace. Hence training has to be done via simulation. This is similar with training for supersonic fight.

Then, time can not be stretched. A mission is flown with planing time, debrief etc... Even on a simulator, it's a considerable amount of time spent. Pilots and services can not duplicate themselves and their ressources to devoid double the time as if simulation counts for nothing.

I understand that up to 55% is done that way as per the various quote reported here and there.
 
The F-35 simulator is by most accounts very groundbreaking. F-35B pilots make the transition directly to their aircraft with no training specific aircraft, where as the harrier was somewhat of a widow maker even with the two seat versions. A lot of that is the vastly improved control system, but everything I’ve heard in open source about the trainer platform is that is a clear step above all others.
 

F-35: Response to Inaccurate and Misleading Information​

Sep. 11, 2023
(Source: Czech Republic Ministry of Defence; issued Sept 11, 2023)
(Unofficial translation by Defense-Aerospace.com)

PRAGUE --- In connection with the planned modernization of the Czech Army's supersonic air force, a number of inaccurate and misleading information has recently appeared in the public space. As we want the debate on the future security of our airspace to be factual, we are publishing an overview of the most frequent questions and claims related to the modernization of the supersonic air force and the reaction of the Ministry of Defense and the Army of the Czech Republic to these claims.

According to Saab's materials, the Gripen is the cheapest in terms of purchase price and operation. How is it possible that the army and the Ministry of Defense claim otherwise?

Our calculations are based on offers we have received from the United States Government and the Government of the Kingdom of Sweden. From these materials it appears that the price of the F-35A is lower than the JAS-39 Gripen E. And, although we cannot be specific, the price stated in Saab's marketing materials, for reasons unknown to us, is tens of percent less than for which the Swedish government officially offered us these planes.

As far as operations are concerned, we chose a different methodology for comparison - not comparing the price of a flight hour, which is very imprecise and incomparable, but the annual cost of operating 24 aircraft of a given type. What is important to us is how much the overall operation will cost us, not just the flight hour. After recalculating the data available to us for the Gripen C/D (the operating cost of the Gripen E is even higher according to Saab's marketing materials) and the data from the US government's offer for the F-35, it came out that annual operation including average fuel costs and ammunition of 24 F-35 aircraft is less than a quarter higher than the operation of other platforms, for example the Gripen. However, it must be taken into account that the F-35 offers significantly higher capabilities than other platforms and, at the same time, a significantly higher service life.

The military recommendation also compared the costs of other platforms, namely seven types. The AČR requested official data for all aircraft from the governments of the countries in which the aircraft are manufactured. Also for other platforms, the figures given in the Saab brochure differ from the figures in the offers on which the recommendation is based. However, again, with regard to trade secrets, it is not possible to be more specific.

In any case, it is true that we can only rely on official data provided by those with whom we will negotiate a possible contract. Data found on the Internet cannot be relied upon when planning a country's defense capabilities decades ahead.

More generally, for the evaluation in the military recommendation, seven criteria were set, price being one of them, and the bids were evaluated based on the evaluation of the degree of capabilities obtained against the costs incurred. The F-35 finished first and the Gripen wasn't even second. The same evaluation model was used, for example, by the Belgians or the Dutch.

Won't the F-35 be obsolete in 12 years?

The military recommendation is based on the experience of soldiers and a number of renowned international studies, and the conclusion is clear: the 5th-generation aircraft will be fully operational even within a 50-year horizon. This is made possible by both the design of the aircraft and its hardware, which can easily handle continuous updates to keep up with the times. The Americans plan continuous development and production of these aircraft until at least 2050 and life cycle support until 2080.

The Gripen is said to be obsolete after 30 years, while the F-35 is supposed to be the best after 70 years.

Neither applies. However, like many reputable sources, we claim that within 50 years the F-35 will be able to perform all the tasks that the tactical air force is supposed to perform. And this is also claimed by a long line of NATO states that acquire this aircraft and that declare their confidence in it in the strongest way available, i.e. by acquiring it. By the way, it is not out of the question to compare the number of orders and delivered aircraft, and these differ significantly for the mentioned platforms. At the moment, the Swedish Air Force also anticipates the end of Gripen C/D operations in 2035.

The Czech Republic allegedly did not examine Sweden's offer on the free transfer of existing Gripens

This is an offer from this July, which appears with the label "Free Gripen squadron". However, there is no offer to get a squadron of Gripens for free. The offer is for the Swedish state to give us the Gripens C/D leased today, provided we buy 12 new Gripens E. So, the story about free Gripens is a lie.

It is also not the case that we did not deal with the Swedish offer. An earlier offer by the Swedish government was assessed as part of a military recommendation, and based on it, the Minister of Defense received a clear mandate from the government to negotiate with the US government for the acquisition of 24 F-35s. These negotiations took place in the past year and their result is a comprehensive offer, which the government will negotiate exactly in accordance with its last year's resolution.

In addition, the Swedish offer does not correspond to the needs of the army defined more than twenty years ago and again in the aforementioned military recommendation for 24 new supersonic aircraft.

The Czech Republic needs 24 machines. It needed them always and it also resulted from strategic and conceptual materials. Leasing 12+2 aircraft was a compromise and a temporary solution that does not allow the tactical air force to fulfill far from all tasks. So, we would get 14 machines from Sweden for life, and in order for the air force to function, we would have to buy at least 12 more E and two-seater F aircraft instead of the aging Gripens C/D, which would be inefficient overall.

Especially considering what has already been said many times, i.e. that these are 4. or 4.5-generation aircraft, which can address the future of tactical aviation only for a very short time and do not provide nearly as much capability as 5th generation aircraft.

Negotiations are ongoing with the government of the Kingdom of Sweden on the continuation of the lease of JAS-39 Gripen C/D aircraft so that they can protect the airspace of the Czech Republic even after 2027, since the Swedish government is the owner of these machines. There are no negotiations with Saab or any other private company as we have no mandate or reason to do so.

Gripen operating costs are said to be one-third that of the F-35

According to the Swedish government's official offer, the purchase value of the F-35 aircraft is lower than that of the Gripen E. According to our data from the offers, the operating cost of the F-35 is less than a quarter higher, but at the same time they offer significantly higher capabilities. And it should also be said that we are comparing current Gripen C/D aircraft. We do not know the operating costs of the Gripen E aircraft, but Saab itself claims in its marketing materials that they will be higher than previous generations of aircraft.

The F-35 is said to be unnecessarily expensive, and the AČR will not use their complete capabilities anyway due to its technical maturity.

Without 5th generation aircraft, our air force will find itself essentially outside of NATO. The decision to negotiate with the US for the purchase of the F-35 is based on an analysis prepared by the military, which says that only the 5th generation machines can withstand the battlefield of the future. Therefore, if we want a tactical air force whose machines will not need to be renewed in a few years and which will be able to fulfill the specified tasks, then it is necessary to buy the F-35.

As for the use of capabilities, at the moment the AČR will not really use these capabilities for the most part, because the modernization of the AČR is a process that will take many years. But by the time the first F-35 arrives here, we will be able to fully integrate the capabilities of this machine into the AČR and thus use the maximum possible potential of this machine. It is absolutely essential that different types of technology can communicate with each other. It is not only one of the goals of the modernization of the ACR, but also a goal of NATO. Of course, this ability is taken into account in all modernization projects.

We need, for example, artillery to be able to use data from drones. And not for the operator to enter the coordinates, but for the fire control system to directly take data from a small drone above the battlefield. Likewise, all other weapon systems must communicate with each other.

The F-35 is one of the essential elements in this system: it is not only an aircraft, but also an air defense element and an extremely capable sensor, which, thanks to the minimal visibility for radars, can get over the enemy's territory with very little risk and can not only attack there, but most importantly collect data on enemy positions, the number of his units, types of equipment, etc. And he can connect all this data with data from other systems, evaluate them and provide them to other systems in the Czech Armed Forces or NATO.

Without the F-35, we will not have these capabilities. No other machine can get as far, be able to attack as far, and collect as much data.

Will the Czech Republic be able to build the infrastructure for the F-35? Čáslav will have to be completely rebuilt.

The reconstruction of the Čáslav base would for the most part take place regardless of the chosen platform. At least because of the number of aircraft in operation, which is to be increased to 24. In addition, we are members of NATO and alliance aircraft, which will often be F-35s, will have to land here. A comprehensive infrastructure reconstruction project is therefore being prepared. This is taken into account from the beginning of the project analysis.

Do we know the real cost of the F-35?

Yes, we have a US offer and at the same time a very detailed breakdown of related projects, such as infrastructure preparation etc.

The unit price of the F-35 for the Czech Republic, Israel or Switzerland varies. How is it possible?

The price for the standard configuration of the airplane as such is the same for everyone and cannot be read from Congressional reports. From there, you can only read the complex costs of acquiring the entire system, which includes all other assets and purchased services (simulators, training, ammunition, etc.).

To know this, you only need to read the report from Congress in its entirety, not just the first paragraph. Each state has different requirements for additional property and purchased services.

CZK 122 billion is not the exact price. The costs of operation in the next 30 years will be many times higher.

The CZK 122 billion figure is the price cap for the entire F-35 system delivered from the US. Of course, there will be additional costs, and we have never hidden it, and it applies to all purchased systems. We have these cost estimates because we calculated the project comprehensively from the beginning. From the prepared detailed economic balance sheet, it is evident that even in the phase of acquiring aircraft and building the infrastructure, expenses will not exceed 10% of annual defense budgets (Note: defense expenditures of approx. 158 billion CZK are planned for 2024).

As far as operations are concerned, we chose a different methodology for comparison - not comparing the price of a flight hour, which is very imprecise and incomparable, but the annual cost of operating 24 aircraft of a given type. What is important to us is how much the overall operation will cost us, not just the flight hour. After recalculating the data available to us for the Gripen C/D (the operating cost of the Gripen E is even higher according to Saab's marketing materials) and the data from the US government's offer for the F-35, it came out that annual operation including average fuel costs and ammunition of 24 F-35 aircraft is less than a quarter higher than the operation of other platforms, for example the Gripen.

However, it must be taken into account that the F-35 offers significantly higher capabilities than other platforms and, at the same time, a significantly longer service life.

According to the GAO (Governmental Accountability Office), 50% of the F-35 is grounded in 2022. So out of 24, 12 of them will be able to fly.

GAO does not distinguish between options A, B, and C in its conclusions. And that, for example, not even for a flight hour, and at the same time it is publicly known that variants B and C are technically more complex (B - vertical takeoff, C - for aircraft carrier), so that information is misleading. At the same time, it must be said that within the scope of our Gripen operation, this is 51%, so it is not a departure from the F-35 average or in comparison with the competition.

What effect will the purchase of the F-35 have on other aircraft used by the Czech Republic's tactical air force, such as the L-159?

The possible acquisition of 24 F-35s would have a major impact on the shape of the entire tactical air force, because Thanks to its capabilities, the F-35 would be able to perform a full spectrum of tasks without the need to use additional platforms such as the L-159.

Currently, the tactical air force has 24 L-159 aircraft in addition to 14 Gripen C/D. In the case of the acquisition of the F-35, it is assumed that there will also be a gradual attenuation and, after 2035, the complete grounding of all L-159s, which will result in an average annual cost saving of approx. CZK 600 million per year and at the same time unification on a single platform.

-ends-
 
Some of that article reeks of BS but honestly the price to performance ratio is obviously superior for the F-35. The A variant would be best to keep costs down and maximize flight hours and i would agree is the better choice. Also Lord forbid ww3 breaks out we need to seize on maximum commonality when we are talking about western combined arms, network-centric, warfare. It is wise for natosphere nations without massive MICs like France to hang their hat on our kit.

I still dislike the f-35. I personally think we made the world's best jump jet and mediocre naval/airforce variants of the world's best jump jet. The McNamara tier fixation on only one standard flight model through three very, very conflicting sets of requirements was a bad decision imo.

But frankly the f-35 could be a flying brick and still be the best aircraft on the planet as the sensors, offensive and defensive EW, ergonomics(with caveats), and stealth technology make the lack of range, supercruise and internal storage problems less of an issue.
 
To complement earlier posts regarding flight hours reduction with modern training through increase in simulation, see what it is with basic USAF Pilot training:


I always say the same story but myself, as a GA pilot, was scheduled for solo after only 4hr on a Jodel, thanks, presumably, to my maturity level in aviation at the time and the high level of professionalism from my instructors. That's a bit extereem but having had AF and Airline retired pilots as instructors, I still see their views on it as reliable.

100 years ago, pilots did not have the average Sciences and mathematical level we enjoy today. Neither the body was trained to endure the strain of flight (speed, low level G-force, etc...). Most rookie pilot today will have experienced flight before starting their training, G - loads in car or public attraction and will be aware of the theory of flight (that last statement is however, and regrettably, absolutely not true).
 
Last edited:
I still dislike the f-35. I personally think we made the world's best jump jet and mediocre naval/airforce variants of the world's best jump jet. The McNamara tier fixation on only one standard flight model through three very, very conflicting sets of requirements was a bad decision imo.
As I understand it, the -A model gained a lot from the weight reductions forced from commonality with the -B.

But yet, I generally agree that the -A and -C could have been the same airframe with the -B something else entirely.
 
I swear, NCIS (etc including for other countries) need to park a couple agents there as Moderators...
Or at least get some natsec form of Clippy out of retirement.

"Hi there! Looks like you're trying to disseminate classified materials from no fewer than 6 nations for the purposes of winning an argument against strangers on a web forum for a tank video game. Would you like to reconsider some of your choices?"
 

"Teixeira was identified by the New York Times as the leading figure in an online gaming chat group, Thug Shaker Central, on the social network Discord. The details that have emerged about Teixeira have put him in the frame as a person of interest in the leak investigation."
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom