Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

The approval process for any ITAR controlled products such as the F-35 is quite a detailed one with many parties involved and reasons for no answers along the way. It could have been one of any. Remember also that Thailand has plenty of US sourced systems (e.g. F-16s) or platforms with US equipment (such as Gripens), so I doubt there was a simple blanket answer as the reason here. The comment "over issues with training and technical requirements" could be interpreted many ways.
Indeed, there is a need for each new item, or even clearance. Amendments of the ITAR license are required, even if you just want to add an ITAR piece of equipment that you are already licensed for to use on a particular platform on another platform of yours that haven't received this ITAR item yet. It's typically an amendment, or extensionof the license in such a case.
 
I wonder what else they have got in the F-35 book TomcatVIP? No doubt it will be within limits of National Security.
 
 
First A2A kill!

The tight, dense, persistent wingtip vortices from LEGS 1 seem to have enshrouded most/all of the air data sensors on the trailing LEGS 3, feeding the FCS with chaotic nonsense and sending it into GIGO mode. Congrats to M-B on a successful escape from an unpromising altitude and attitude.
 
First A2A kill!

The tight, dense, persistent wingtip vortices from LEGS 1 seem to have enshrouded most/all of the air data sensors on the trailing LEGS 3, feeding the FCS with chaotic nonsense and sending it into GIGO mode. Congrats to M-B on a successful escape from an unpromising altitude and attitude.
Weird. You wouldn't think the trailing aircraft would be in that kind of air long enough to matter. :confused:
 
Weird. You wouldn't think the trailing aircraft would be in that kind of air long enough to matter. :confused:
It took about three seconds, which isn't surprising since the trailing aircraft would naturally be in line with the leader's wake. The FCS shut off one side of the air data system, leaving a combination of backup (inertial?) and one ADS channel that was also getting bad data. Seems like everything was varying so rapidly that the SW that combined the two was overloaded.

A F-35 test pilot witnessed the mishap sequence from the ground and provided a statement to the AIB (Tab V-2.1.2). He testified that, “[the aircraft] looked like a totally normal F-35 before obviously going out of control…when the oscillations were happening, I did see really large flight control surface movements, stabs, trailing edge flaps, rudders all seem to be moving pretty rapidly like, probably at their rate limits, and huge deflections” (Tab V-2.1.3). The witness further stated that the MA was sideways “by 30 to 40 degrees, which is far outside the normal flight envelope” (Tab V-2.1.3).
 
The second disturbance was encountered between 18:08:27L and 18:08:30L as the MA maneuvered to land (Tabs J-1.8 and V-1.1.5). This disturbance resulted in a large enough disruption of airflow over the sensors that the ADA, based on system parameters, excluded data from the left side MFP (Tabs J-1.8 and V-1.1.5). Excluding data from the left side MFP resulted in a visual and audio AIR DATA DEGD (degrade) integrated caution advisory or warning (ICAW) to the MP at 18:08:29L (Tabs J-1.8 and V-1.1.5).

As captured by the CSMU, the disturbed air also caused the right-side probe to show readings outside input limits (Tab J-1.29). These readings did not trigger any ICAWs (Tab J-1.29). This intermittent disruption to the right side occurred multiple times over the next three seconds (18:08:27L to 18:08:30L) (Tab J-1.29). During each of these intermittent disruptions to the right side, with the left side inputs still excluded, the ADA stopped using primary readings until the right probe’s readings came back to within acceptable parameters (Tabs J-1.29 and V-2.1.5). Each time the right probe was intermittently excluded, the ADA switched between primary and back up sources to determine flight conditions (Tabs J-1.29 and V-2.1.5). With each transition, a value referred to as a “sump,” was added to the on-board model to smooth flight control movements while switching between primary and backup (Tabs J-1.29 and V-2.1.7). “Sump” values nominally decay over four seconds, assuming there is a single transition between sources (Tab J-1.30). During the right probe’s multiple, short-duration, readings outside of input limits, the ADA switched between primary and backup sources multiple times without time for the sump value to decay (Tab J-1.30). Each time this transition occurred the sump values added together (Tab J-1.30). The sum of the sump values from the multiple transitions resulted in the on-board model’s estimation of aircraft conditions, differing from the aircraft’s actual conditions to the point the MP was no longer able to control the MA (Tabs J-1.30 and CC-1.2). Based on CSMU data, the aircraft was not correctly responding to pilot inputs in the final seconds prior to ejection and departed controlled flight at 18:08:34 (Tab CC-1.2). This data is evidenced in the angle of sideslip (AOSS) values at 18:08:34 and after, approximately 2 seconds prior to MP ejection at 18:08:36L (Tabs J-1.15, J-1.22, and CC-1.2).
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20230729_200822_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
    Screenshot_20230729_200822_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
    532.4 KB · Views: 13
  • Screenshot_20230729_200846_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
    Screenshot_20230729_200846_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
    716.5 KB · Views: 13
Last edited:
I think we should not think past the official report. Given that F-35 AoA sensors are perfectly able to sense attitude transiting forth and back post stall, there is probably more in that story than what's stated.

At the age of HPMW, those incidents close to the ground during final on known airbase that broadcast radio traffic are a bit fishy. I whish US congress would devoid more time on that matter than on rebranded UFO fantasms.
 
Last edited:
I do feel like there is a design issue if the ADA allows multiple “sumps” to accumulate in quick succession such that it exceeds CLAW limits of AOA and sideslip before decaying. In fact, based on the CSMU, the right MFP (primary) was considered good by the ADS, and it was the toggling between that and the backup (7 times within 2 seconds) that accumulated so much “sump” values that the ADA-selected AOA was well outside of CLAW limits. Perhaps rapid transitions between primary and backup was an edge case that the ADA wasn’t designed to handle, but I’d expect there to be some ensuing corrective action.

I recall that the F-35A loss in May 2020 was contributed by the control system being oversaturated, although I’m not sure if the root cause be can traced to similar components in the software or hardware. In any case, this should be further impetus to address this issue.
 
Last edited:
French Air Transport Command to get... F-35?

White had one other example of how agile basing drove unorthodox responses, one akin to wartime operations. It involved one of the French Rafale fighters taking part, along with the Japanese Self Defense Force, which needed a replacement part. The team communicated with Guam, found the part and got it loaded on an F-35A headed that way, he said.

 

View: https://twitter.com/defense_news/status/1686383826900312064?s=20

BAE Systems is also under contract to design and deliver Block 4 EW capabilities for future F-35 aircraft, which will significantly upgrade and modernize AN/ASQ-239. Block 4 EW will improve sensing and signal-processing capabilities and boost the ability to detect low-observable threats and more threats simultaneously. Block 4 hardware is designed to rapidly evolve using incremental software updates that will enable future upgrades, accelerating the delivery of advanced capabilities to the global F-35 fleet.
 
That is a new F-35 designation for me as well GTX, though I think that it has to do with the nuclear weapons capability that Germany wants for the their Lightning fleet since the retirement of the Tornado which had it previously.
 
The training exercise with Japan is the latest air force tie-up between Rome and Tokyo. Japanese pilots have been training since 2021 at Italy’s flight training school, which is now based at Decimomannu on the Italian island of Sardinia.
Did this escape us or did I forgot?!

 
I think we should not think past the official report. Given that F-35 AoA sensors are perfectly able to sense attitude transiting forth and back post stall, there is probably more in that story than what's stated.

At the age of HPMW, those incidents close to the ground during final on known airbase that broadcast radio traffic are a bit fishy. I whish US congress would devoid more time on that matter than on rebranded UFO fantasms.

Seems I was wrong ;)

 
Not really Sonar is different from Radar as far as I know TomcatVIP. That is probably how they managed to detect the F-35, and of course the RAF are getting a brand new replacement F-35B as part of the new order from LM.
 
Whatever it is TomcatVIP, it is stunning to think that it was taken deep down in the dark depths of the Med.
 
Not really Sonar is different from Radar as far as I know TomcatVIP. That is probably how they managed to detect the F-35, and of course the RAF are getting a brand new replacement F-35B as part of the new order from LM.
Don't forget this sidescan sonar image may have been taken from a trailing array that is very close to airframe compared to a radar...

As for the replacement....its not clear if we are really. Allegedly there will be an order of 26, but this had been discussed before the crash. You'd therefore think another would be added....I suspect the MoD will instead designate one of the 26 as the 'replacement'.
 
As for the replacement....its not clear if we are really. Allegedly there will be an order of 26, but this had been discussed before the crash. You'd therefore think another would be added....I suspect the MoD will instead designate one of the 26 as the 'replacement'.
The UK already includes attrition (losses, fatigue) aircraft in the fleet numbers purchased so losing one early doesn't change the total
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom