Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) UK-Japan-Italy

Maro.Kyo said:
Since Japan is planning to develop their own UAS adjunct in cooperation with the US, while UK is going to develop their collaborative combat drone with Germany, I wonder what Italy will do? Join hands with Spain? Conversely, I wonder how high the possibilities are for Spain and Italy to join in on Brit-German UAS programme.

It seems like everyone rather wants their own piece of the UAS pie, since it is definitely going to grow into a huge market. Perhaps even bigger than that of manned fighter demand in the future? I think how things are turning out in the SCAF front in regards to the new French UCAV is quite indicative. Iirc, UCAV was supposed to be Germany's responsibility.

I think Italy could soldier alone if they need to do so on developing combat UAS, both financially and technologically, but I'd imagine that they would definitely want at least one partner for the economy of scale.
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I mean it is as the french UCAV is something outside of FCAS and not the Remote Carrier which are the actual UCAV's off FCAS
 
Maro.Kyo said:
Since Japan is planning to develop their own UAS adjunct in cooperation with the US, while UK is going to develop their collaborative combat drone with Germany, I wonder what Italy will do? Join hands with Spain? Conversely, I wonder how high the possibilities are for Spain and Italy to join in on Brit-German UAS programme.

It seems like everyone rather wants their own piece of the UAS pie, since it is definitely going to grow into a huge market. Perhaps even bigger than that of manned fighter demand in the future? I think how things are turning out in the SCAF front in regards to the new French UCAV is quite indicative. Iirc, UCAV was supposed to be Germany's responsibility.

I think Italy could soldier alone if they need to do so on developing combat UAS, both financially and technologically, but I'd imagine that they would definitely want at least one partner for the economy of scale.
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Well, it may depend on how expensive the CCAs are.

If you have subsonic, relatively small BVRAAM-carriers, you can probably make those at any place that can make a cruise missile. Even if you have supersonic BVRAAM-carriers, those are probably going to be about the right size for a J85 to push around. Lots of places still using that engine, since it powers the F-5E. And it's supposed to be pretty simple to maintain.
 
Here I put reconstructed point cloud model of delta wing version of GACP concept model @JA2024.
I used nerf technique to reconstruction from photos.
Very noisy, but this will help you.
Maybe over 80MB file size load, pls be careful.
skfb.ly

GCAP model delta wing version @ JA2024 - 3D model by damawo

Re-constructed using nerfacto-Nerfstudio. SfM was done by Metashape. - GCAP model delta wing version @ JA2024 - 3D model by damawo
skfb.ly skfb.ly
 
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A couple of updates on GCAP;

The Financial Times reports that Starmer has agreed to continue funding the programme, pre-empting the strategic defence review due next year, to allay fears from the other partners. A formal announcement is due soon, presumably around the same time the partners are due to sign the joint venture agreement, which they want to do by year's end.

Also, Italy's parliament today formally approved the GCAP Convention, preparing the way for setting up the GIGO joint venture. The British and Japanese parliaments have both already approved, so things should start to move relatively quickly now.

breakingdefense.com

UK 'needs' GCAP future fighter to counter growth of Russian and Chinese stealth jets: Air Chief - Breaking Defense

The joint British, Italian and Japanese effort has been the subject of uncertainty in recent months after UK Armed Forces Minister Luke Pollard refused to make a long term commitment to it on grounds that doing so could "prejudge" the outcome of a new strategic defense review, set to report in...
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
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FighterJock said:
That is so true Scott Kenny, After all the problems with the four nation EFA (Typhoon) program I would not let any more take part than than the initial GCAP member countries.
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Well you could allways only take people who want the same and then make it only changable if all or atleast 80% of them agree
 
Desertfox said:
What if the 4th country is the US?
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Not as crazy as some might think. Will it happen? Probably not, but in some ways it would make sense.

Tempest will perhaps do ~80% of what the US wants out of NGAD, they are designed in-part for the same theatre. If the other 20% can be achieved through CCAs, some other niche platform or even specific equipment added to Tempest then it might make sense to join up with local production.
 
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Broken said:
Not as crazy as some might think. Will it happen? Probably not, but in some ways it would make sense.

Tempest will likely do ~80% of what the US wants out of NGAD, they are designed in-part for the same theatre. If the other 20% can be achieved through CCAs, some other niche platform or even specific equipment added to Tempest then it might make sense to join up with local production.
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Hmmm... US GCAPs, CCAs, armed SR-72, B-21s with AAMs and targeting provided by satellite constellation.
 
FighterJock said:
I like the sound of that TomcatVIP. Tempest getting tested out at Edwards, after all they need to test it in hot and high conditions so it is only natural to go there.
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I believe Australia is more likely, both to distance from the US and also for the same reason US hypersonics testing has moved there, its further from prying eyes.
 
www.ansa.it

Tajani says thinks GCAP will expand to Saudi Arabia - TopNews - Ansa.it

Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani said Wednesday he thought the GCAP combat aircraft accord with the UK and Japan would expand to include Saudi Arabia. (ANSA)
www.ansa.it www.ansa.it


The Italian foreign minister Tajani speaking at a conference with his party gives the strongest signal yet that Saudi Arabia will join the GCAP programme.
 
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Broken said:
Well I don't know how I feel about it tbh, but obviously from a financial / guaranteed orders perspective it would be a major boost for the project.
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I'm hoping that the Saudis are simply interested in guaranteeing some early access, not in making any design changes (other than reminding people that the finished planes need to handle stupid-hot weather)
 
The money is handy but if there is another corruption/bribery scandal off the back of this, it will kill the export chances dead.
 
I wonder what Japans problems about the Saudis joining the GCAP/Tempest were up until now? Seems all rather strange that they are now letting them join.
 
Probably a hangover from previous export restrictions and perhaps worries about Chinese and Russian dealings with the Saudis. It seemed that they were effectively shopping around for the best deal between GCAP, FC-31 and KF-21 and found it to be the best long-term option for them (given that they've already bought equipment from the UK before).
 
FighterJock said:
I wonder what Japans problems about the Saudis joining the GCAP/Tempest were up until now? Seems all rather strange that they are now letting them join.
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The Japanese are VERY keen that the 2035 in-service date is kept. They desperately need to keep pace with China (and Russia), and dispose of obsolescent aircraft. The complication of adding more major partners, and subsequent workshare negotiations, could cause delay.

Though of course one of the main things that can delay a project is lack of funds...

Archibald said:
Seems everybody tries to do a F-35 those days - I mean, securing a large international coalition to pay the massive bill of a5th (or 6th) generation fighter.
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The trouble is that most countries that can afford high-end military aircraft either have or want to develop their own industry to see return on their investment. And the array of competing products increases as more of the world fully industrialises. In other words the advantage has swung to the consumer. Unless you are a superpower that can bear the majority of the cost and hence stay in a position of relative power in the relationship (like the F-35), then it is less developer-consumer dynamic and more co-developer.
 
Quite Broken, the UK tried to design our own fighter with the original Tempest design and found that it cost too much hence the current three/four partner GCAP/Tempest program. Sweden are currently trying to design their own future fighter design and will ultimately find it too expensive as well.
 

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