But do UK and Italy need to be competitive with China? Or does this just force a lot more cost and risk into the programme?
Yeah, but those are more likely to be JF-17s or J-35s if any at all? Plenty of countries buy combat aircraft that aren't aiming for the top worldwide position.
No chance for India. Their technical capabilities are all-around inferior to that of GCAP partner countries, and they have very heavy emphasis on "Make in India", transfer of technology and workshare, domestic participation and localization. These two aspects are not compatible with one another. Same reason for which they quite FGFA, and are solely pursuing AMCA, conceived and managed by themselves. And it seems like AMCA will be ready around the time GCAP will be ready, albeit they are not comparable platforms.
Can't understand why you're in such a panic mode. The recently revealed CAC and SAC aircrafts are most probably technology demonstrators/pre-EMD prototypes. In that sense, GCAP is only a couple of years late compared to the Chinese effort, as BAE Tempest demonstrator is slated for 2027 maiden flight.
What interest??
The Chinese have gained FBW actuation experience from reverse engineering the FBW actuation system from the 777 and other platforms including the Russian system used in the SU-27 as examples. Do to the critical nature of FBW reliability, I'm sure they have much improved their FBW systems. A few years ago, I downloaded images of the FBW actuators used in the various, newer Russian military jets from I think, their only aircraft actuation supplier. The servoactuators do look kind of "industrial" and would seem to be much heavier than Western type units. The Russians also use variants of the same baseline-design actuators for most their FBW military jets. More than likely these variants revolved around bore, stroke and different control laws naturally.
hydraulics are hydraulics. Aviation just uses higher strength cylinder bores so they can be lighter than industrial units of the same strength. Or uses screw jack units for things that don't need a fast response speed.
Most composite bonding process, be it secondary bonding, co-bonding or co-curing, needs an adhesive. If it's a metal to composite bonding like in the case of main wing box, it's always the case. In that sense, the "new adhesive bonding method" is actually nothing new. The co-cured main wings for F-2 were first at the time, but not anymore.
I'm not surprised, the F-35 bays are about as small as you can pack a reasonable strike package into. 2x BVRAAMs, 1x ARM, 1x large bomb or 4x SDBs.次期戦闘機共同開発 事業本格化へ 日本は機体デザイン担う方向 | NHK
【NHK】日本が、イギリスやイタリアと進めている次期戦闘機の共同開発は、司令塔となる国際機関が設立されたことで事業が本格化します。…www3.nhk.or.jp
Looks like Japan is taking airframe design lead including influencing the size of the IWB which is going to be larger than the F-35. The UK is taking electronics systems lead, and Italy is taking flight systems lead.
防衛省関係者によりますと、日本は、軽量化やステルス性の向上に欠かせない複合材の技術力などを生かして、主に機体のデザインを担う方向で調整が進んでいるということです。
また、ステルス性を保つにはミサイルや爆弾などを機内に格納する必要があるということで、最新鋭のF35戦闘機より多く格納できるようなデザインを検討したいとしています。
一方、イギリスは電子システムを、イタリアは機体制御を、それぞれ主に担う方向です。
According to a Defense Ministry official, Japan is making adjustments to take the lead in designing the aircraft, taking advantage of its composite material technology, which is essential for weight reduction and improving stealth.
In addition, since missiles and bombs need to be stored inside the aircraft to maintain stealth, they would like to consider a design that can store more than the latest F35 fighter jet.
Meanwhile, the UK is mainly in charge of the electronic system, and Italy is in charge of aircraft control.
It does make sense with how much Japan has put into composite airframe construction and their new adhesive bonding method. The two things I am most interested in is if there will be significant design changes to what we have seen so far as those were all early concept designs and how Japan taking over IWB capacity will affect the size such as fitting in large AShMs like the new MHI design.
Thanks for the info, I did not know this. The F-22 and F-35 are 4000 psig, the YF-23 was also 4000 psig and the B-2 is 4200 psig.
Good point!
So you're thinking 2x ASM-3 and 2x BVRAAMs?
A Brazilian source that quotes defense.in which is just a blog forum not too different from here with no actual announcement from any of the main GCAP nations? The defense.in article gives no actual source and actually has another post talking about how India wont join GCAP.UK, Italy invite India to join GCAP 6th generation fighter programme
Defence Forces Newsroom December 28, 2024 62
In a move that could significantly reshape the landscape of international defence collaboration, the UK and Italy have expressed their support for inviting India to join the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP). This ambitious initiative, which already includes Japan, aims to develop a sixth-generation stealth fighter by 2035. This is not the first time India has been approached to participate. Two years ago, the UK extended an initial invitation for India to join Project Tempest, the precursor to the current GCAP.
Reino Unido e Itália convidam Índia a participar do programa do caça de 6ª geração GCAP - Poder Aéreo – Aviação, Forças Aéreas, Indústria Aeroespacial e de Defesa
Em um movimento que poderá remodelar significativamente o cenário da colaboração internacional de defesa, o Reino Unido e a Itália expressaram seu apoio para convidar a índia aparticipar do Programa Global de Combate Aéreo (GCAP). Esta iniciativa ambiciosa, que já inclui o Japão, visa...www.aereo.jor.br
Such a move could also influence other nations to consider joining, further broadening GCAP’s international reach. For now, Germany’s alignment remains firmly with FCAS.
www.eurasiantimes.com
armyrecognition.com
We're now on our third PM since Boris, who hasn't been in power since 2022 and was generally regarded as a disastrous clown by even his own MPs. While Truss and Sunak might have considered themselves slightly bound by Boris's promises, Starmer represents a complete change of government.
So if India is struggling to even put out AMCA a "5th gen" program before 2030, then how would their inclusion speed up GCAP? Even if AMCA does hit that 2030 IOC mark that doesn't mean anything as Tejas has only delivered 2 sqr worth of aircraft after a decade after its IOC and 24 years after its first flight. Everything is just about how it will benefit India and the only way they said they could benefit GCAP is directly contradictory to what the trend has been with Indian programs.
Army recognition, euroasiatime and CNBC wouldn't be stuff i called good sources as atleast the first two just write whatever sells the best and are allways trying to be the quickest now matter how wrong they are. The only big advantage india brings is an large airforce which needs to be replaced.Such a move could also influence other nations to consider joining, further broadening GCAP’s international reach. For now, Germany’s alignment remains firmly with FCAS.
Meanwhile, the United Kingdom also previously invited India to collaborate on the Tempest program, the precursor to GCAP, but the prospects of India joining the initiative remain slim at present.
However, the slow progress of India’s fifth-generation fighter program could change the dynamics in the future, potentially leading to a reconsideration of the GCAP option.
In a similar line, Shashank S. Patel, an India-based geopolitical and defense analyst, told EurAsian Times that India’s most significant challenge lies in the successful domestic development of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) before 2030.
With an urgent need to upgrade its air combat capabilities, India has been compelled to procure advanced fighter jets from foreign manufacturers, a factor that may affect its interest in pursuing participation in the GCAP initiative.
He said, “As the members of GCAP agreed to expansion, it is a certain possibility that India will get an invite to join this sixth-gen fighter jet program. India’s inclusion will shorten the time elapsed for completion of the project by some years compared to the planned launch in the mid-years of the next decade. It is not a baffling defense enigma that India is open to scrolling such proposals, as India-France held such talks in the past to materialize such joint development initiatives.”
Patel argued, “It is obviously in favor of Indian air capabilities to join such next-gen tech initiatives, which will enhance the current rolling of fifth-gen fighters as well as establish its own elite cohort of countries of sixth-gen fighters of the future. The core lies in ‘how early and when this multinational grouping develops supersonic 130kN+ thrust class engines to propel such jets’.
Another key factor that may influence India’s decision is the current state of the Indian Air Force’s combat aircraft fleet, which has reached an unprecedented low. The IAF is currently operating with just 31 squadrons, a number not seen since the 1965 India-Pakistan war.
The authorized strength for the IAF is set at 42 squadrons, a target intended to reflect the strategic threat levels at India’s borders. However, the force has been steadily shrinking due to the retirement of aging Soviet-era aircraft, with replacements failing to be inducted at a pace necessary to maintain operational readiness.
Compounding this challenge is the IAF’s ongoing struggle with the Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) acquisition process. India’s request for information (RFI) to acquire 114 fighters has yet to make significant progress, further delaying the replenishment of its fleet.
Meanwhile, India’s adversaries, such as China and Pakistan, continue to develop or acquire advanced fighter technology. China now operates two stealth fighter jets, while Pakistan is in the process of acquiring J-35 stealth aircraft from China.
Business Standard learns that a UK delegation, including Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials and executives from British defence giant BAE Systems, who will arrive on February 18 for the Aero India 2019 exhibition in Bengaluru, will brief Indian MoD and IAF officials and gauge the potential for collaboration.6th-Gen Fighter: UK, Japan, Italy Seek More Partners For GCAP; Can Saudi Arabia, India Join Sixth-Gen League?
A week after Rome ratified the Global Combat Air Program (GCAP) treaty, leaders from Japan, the UK, and Italy convened on November 19 to explore broadening the ambitious joint fighter aircraft development initiative to include additional international partners. The GCAP, launched in 2022, is a...
The U.K.-headquartered firm will lead “Team Tempest,” which also includes engine-maker Rolls-Royce, Italian defense contractor Leonardo, and the European missile consortium MBDA. The aircraft will have two engines hidden away deep inside the airframe to help keep its radar and infrared signatures as low as possible. Rolls-Royce says they are working on an engine design that will leverage composite materials and advanced manufacturing processes to be lightweight, have better thermal management, and still keep costs low. The powerplants will have digital controls for more precise power management and to readily provide maintenance personnel with information about whether components need replacement and other aspects of the system’s “health.”
UK invites India to co-develop 6th-gen fighter aircraft Tempest
The U.K. Ministry of Defense has unveiled new plans for a new stealth fighter jet called "Tempest" at the biennial Farnborough Airshow, referring to the le
Britain has promised to help transfer advanced technology to produce fighter jets in India — the first concrete attempt by the West to move India away from its dependence on Russian arms.
The move was announced by Prime Minister Boris Johnson when he visited his Indian counterpart Narendra Modi in New Delhi last week, when India and the UK reiterated their commitment to cooperate on defense and security issues.
Details of the project were not released but U.S. defense publication Defense News reported that the offer likely relates to the U.K.’s sixth-generation Tempest Future Combat Air System program.
That's not inviting India to join Tempest, it's inviting India to hire BAE Systems to consult on AMCA.
While they'd passed beyond using the name, I spent my career with what was once Elliott Avionics. GEC Avionics when I joined, then Marconi Avionics, then BAE Systems Electronic Systems (under BAE Systems North America). The ex-Elliotts/GEC/Marconi flight control division definitely went to BAE Systems, not Leonardo - they got the sensors side of things at Edinburgh, BAE got the Rochester divisions doing displays and controls. Italian involvement in the software side of the Typhoon DFCS was half-a-dozen seconded engineers or so, a good percentage of whom switched to BAE Systems rather than relocate back to Italy, so how much recent experience Leonardo have in ab initio DFCS development I'm not clear on.
