How about Germany and spain joining
This time we really shut up and just work on our UAV's.... no Eierlegende Wohlmilchsau with political hinderances
 
How about Germany and spain joining
This time we really shut up and just work on our UAV's.... no Eierlegende Wohlmilchsau with political hinderances

According to some French senators the issue of German export vetos is still a live concern regarding SCAF. This probably won't be tolerated in GCAP. Perhaps a change of government in Germany might alter that?

Also Germany has allowed itself to be painted into a corner in SCAF. It's prime areas are the combat cloud and the remote carrier.

The combat cloud work will likely step on Italy's toes in particular, not clear if they'd give up workshare.

As for the remote carrier or drones, the GCAP partners do not appear to have come out in favour of a shared vision for adjuncts as yet. The last we heard the Japanese were still interested in working with the Americans on future drones for example. It isn't clear all the partners want/need the same thing out of them.

It's a similar story for Spain, a best athlete approach would see other partners in a better position to offer what they are doing in SCAF.

It will also be interesting to see what level of partnership Saudi Arabia is offered. I can't see them being happy if Germany (or Spain) are given higher authority.
 
Quite Broken, the UK tried to design our own fighter with the original Tempest design and found that it cost too much hence the current three/four partner GCAP/Tempest program. Sweden are currently trying to design their own future fighter design and will ultimately find it too expensive as well.
They already pulled it off many times, one wonders if they just know how to do it.
(not cancel big ticket items regardless of sunk cost out of spite, every change of government)
 
The trouble is that most countries that can afford high-end military aircraft either have or want to develop their own industry to see return on their investment. And the array of competing products increases as more of the world fully industrialises. In other words the advantage has swung to the consumer.
That's quite the opposite of what is actually happening.

The number of countries that were able to design and produce up-to-date fighter designs of contemporary generation has constantly decreased, since the technology that goes into it has become more and more sophisticated and expensive, beyond the speed of industrialization of developing nations. Not to mention bleeding edge, for which there are currently only 3 countries that have developed a 5th gen design. There's a reason we rarely hear about some obscure fighter development project from some small country these daya, unlike during the 20th century. Fighter jet development has become just too hard of an undertaking.

Also, most developing nations were not so lucky when it comes to overcoming the middle income trap. The last few countries to ever do so were South Korea and Taiwan and that was almost 2 decades ago. One of these two has just given up on fighter development earlier this year. The only exception has been the former east bloc European nations, which are directly benefitting from EU common market, and are already fairly industrialized.

The problem is that any developing nation needs to compete with China when it comes to manufacturing industry, and China has gotten too good at it for anyone to compete purely on cost competitiveness. I don't see any new countries to emerge as industrialized, and engage on their own indigenous fighter jet development in the near future.

The advantage has definitely not swung to the consumer. For bleeding edge designs, the producers have more leverage than ever before simply because there's no other option. It's only if you are okay with being non-aligned that you could bargain between the very few fighter jet producers that could devlop top of the line fighters. Same reason the French enjoyed so much success with Mirage.

As for the Sauds, they always had a strong position in the weapons market, since there's no one else who has as deep of a pocket as they do. The only thing that changed these days is the American stance when it comes to their policies in the ME, which obviously led to change in Saudi's stance towards their alignment to the west. It's the fact that the Sauds are okay with taking a middle ground between the US/West and China today, that has changed, which they didn't during the cold war. That is their leverage.

Most other countries doesn't have that kind of leverage, if they are not aligned.

It will also be interesting to see what level of partnership Saudi Arabia is offered. I can't see them being happy if Germany (or Spain) are given higher authority.
Of course the details are not public, but it seems like their most important position is that they want their manufacturing/industrial workshare during the production of the jets. They probably would already know that they won't get any meaningful direct transfer of core technologies, from anyone. There would also be demands to reflect some of their operational requirements on the design, but that wouldn't be too hard.
 
According to some French senators the issue of German export vetos is still a live concern regarding SCAF. This probably won't be tolerated in GCAP. Perhaps a change of government in Germany might alter that?
The latest problem isn't even that but they can't figure Out the basic architecture of FCAS while they don't want to compromise on there needs. Its hard to say who the problem is given that EMALS is good enough for a big plane and atleast germany wants a lot of range (which french should want to so i don't know now).
Also Germany has allowed itself to be painted into a corner in SCAF. It's prime areas are the combat cloud and the remote carrier.
Well its not like they have a lot of expertise in any other area except for sensors and avionics.
The combat cloud work will likely step on Italy's toes in particular, not clear if they'd give up workshare.
I mean thats probaly not a big problem. One could lay out both systems and compare them after which only the wanted things are chosen. Italy could still be the prime developer.
As for the remote carrier or drones, the GCAP partners do not appear to have come out in favour of a shared vision for adjuncts as yet. The last we heard the Japanese were still interested in working with the Americans on future drones for example. It isn't clear all the partners want/need the same thing out of them.
Yeah and thats why ITS a nice niche which they can do. We know atleast that there some work between germany and UK for an loyal Wingmans and those remote carrier are more like cruise missiles ala CCA concept. They don't have to buy it but it gives an "inhouse" option.
It's a similar story for Spain, a best athlete approach would see other partners in a better position to offer what they are doing in SCAF.

It will also be interesting to see what level of partnership Saudi Arabia is offered. I can't see them being happy if Germany (or Spain) are given higher authority.
The lastest i heard is that they want it faster and the only other solution would be to compromise to spain which still doesn't mean that it will be any quicker in service.
 
A nice read:

View: https://x.com/peppepilota/status/1864685859519287755?s=46&t=5THFve96Abhx7VANdlTzrg


…one of the first thing mentioned is the workshare. Surprisingly enough he reports (still he is a CEO and has to put everything under the right light for the sake of the company, so take it with a pinch of salt ) that the workshare will be "a fair share" or "evenly distributed" depending on how it gets interpeted (I imagine it was left unclear on purpose); with no company towering over the other 2 in this sense. Other than that he reports that overall the manufacturing wont be very "fragmented".

…Coming onto the technical side; he reports that the General Architecture has already been defined and later he also states that AVIO (but I imagine also IHI and RR) is working on 2 engine demonstrators. As there will be a demonstrator (built on the base of the EJ200 the magazine reports) in which each partner (IHI, RR, and AVIO) will implement an independently developed technology that has to validate and refine on their own. And a second "common" demonstrator in which the objective is to merge all the systems and technologies that have been independently developed so far on the previous "independent" demonstrators.
The demonstrator(hasnt been specified which one of the 2) is expected to run for the first time in 2 to 3 years.
On a last note he also reports, when asked, that so far the GCAP program has no mention regarding the development of adjunct systems.
 
They are test flying to assess aerodynamic stability with the initial modifications. The nose, a chin pod, rear under fuselage pod and wing pods will follow in the configuration 2 test flights before they start fitting the equipment that's being tested into the pods.
 
View: https://x.com/garethjennings3/status/1867562656841830493?s=46&t=5THFve96Abhx7VANdlTzrg


GCAP industry partners from UK, Italy, & Japan announce milestone agreement to form new JV to develop sixth-generation combat aircraft - with equal 33.3% share. Agreement signed at RAeS HQ, London

As yet unnamed JV to established by mid-2025, subject to regulatory approval. Headquartered in UK, with divisions in Warton, Turin and Nagoya.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_6635.jpeg
    IMG_6635.jpeg
    121.4 KB · Views: 51
  • IMG_6634.jpeg
    IMG_6634.jpeg
    183.6 KB · Views: 58
  • IMG_6633.jpeg
    IMG_6633.jpeg
    116.8 KB · Views: 52
  • IMG_6638.jpeg
    IMG_6638.jpeg
    1.1 MB · Views: 61
  • IMG_6637.jpeg
    IMG_6637.jpeg
    1.6 MB · Views: 72
  • IMG_6636.jpeg
    IMG_6636.jpeg
    2.1 MB · Views: 78
  • IMG_6647.jpeg
    IMG_6647.jpeg
    383.9 KB · Views: 90
Last edited:
Breaking Defense seem to have done it off the press reelease, they weren't on the call with Herman Claesen, whereas Craig Hoyle, Gareth Jennings, Jon Lake, Tony Osborne, Tim Robinson, and Francis Tusa were.

 
Craig's lengthy piece in Flight seems not to be paywalled, which gives you two pieces to read!

 
Craig's lengthy piece in Flight seems not to be paywalled, which gives you two pieces to read!

“This JV will feel significantly different to previous ones we’ve had in combat air, with regard to Eurofighter and Panavia,” says Herman Claesen, BAE’s managing director FCAS (Future Combat Air System). “It will have design authority, and be properly empowered to own the programme.
 
So, someone finally explained to the Execs what the common perception of GIGO was? :D
"with the defence ministries of Italy, Japan and the UK already having agreed to form the overarching GCAP International Government Organisation (GIGO), which was established last week. Both this and the new industrial JV will be collocated and headquartered in the UK, with “national companies” located at industry sites in Turin, Nagoya and Warton."
 
It's unlikely that Australia will join as a full partner now, but as an export partner and perhaps subcomponent manufacture, I can easily see that being a possibility

I can't remember the article now, but there was one recently (I think in Italian, from an Italian industry figure) where it was mentioned there were two phases to the project. Phase 1 is the aircraft itself, which is a lot more defined, and phase 2 is the adjuncts/wingmen etc, which so far has taken a back seat. Given Australia's (and Germany's for that matter) focus, I wonder whether they will be offered a stake in phase 2.
 
Last edited:
The only option, and I highly doubt it will occur, would be as a Super Hornet replacement post 2040.
Fair but i think It can be done If Australia joins,that would help a lot with GCAP, Australia and our integration with Japan too
 
Fair but i think It can be done If Australia joins,that would help a lot with GCAP, Australia and our integration with Japan too
Australia is committed to the F-35 program for the Air Domain. We are also heavily committed (Defence budget wise) to the AUKUS Pillar 1 SSNs. I believe the SH replacement will be more aligned with UCAS.
 
Well, I sure don't see Congress allowing the export of NGAD or FAXX, so good luck with buying a long-range striker from the US.
which is why i belive either FCAS or in this case GCAP can be the solution, granted the deal would be complex but it is a good solution to their issue, nevermind their adoption of F-35
 
India (Intive to part GCAP) and Australia is in interesting GCAP, who else interest in Asia-Pacific? It is great choice as GCAP is focus long range as prefect for UK and Japan, Australia, Indian as lots open water arounds. And Italy cover wholes Mediterranean sea.

I'm aware Saudi Arabia is interesting.

It is seem positive so far.

I wonder what range they would be go for .. interesting fact F32 wings contain 8 tonnes, only 1/2 size of GCAP meant would be 16 tons with main body fuel maybe around 6-8 tons meant lots more range. Totally 24-26 tons rough it is very lots fuel than average for fighter.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom