French Aircraft Specifications 1919-1939

[PhR]

*** For the year 1934


-"C.1" single seat fighter; SPAD S.710,Morane-Saulnier MS.405,Nieuport N.160 & N.161,
Dewoitine D.513,Loire-250,Bloch MB.150,Makhonine MAK.110,and lightweight fighters;
Caudron-Renault CR.710,ANF-Mureaux-190 and Arsenal VG.30

This is probably an excellent example. I attach an extract of officicial synthesis document from French Air Ministry about this C1 program designated MT-CPT4, including its 4 editions: 13 July 1934, 22 August 1934, 17 December 1934 and 16 November 1935, as well as the next C1 program: the A23 of 1936. I also add my own tables.
All the 1934 C1 prototypes were initially developped from private funds by their respective manufacturers.

The Blériot-Spad 710 was eliminated (crashed).
The Makhonine 110 is a pure private study for a potential C1, probably designed for this program, but finally never presented to this competition, never ordered and never built.

The Ministry finally decided to allocate a part of the funds for these programs to buy some foreign competitors for comparision: FK.58, H-75 and Spitfire.

 

[hesham]

This information comes from a document from French National Archives, dated November 20th, 1931, which lists all prototypes under order at that date, category by category.

For this aircraft Guillemin JG.15,it ordinary to begin with that number,we have SAB Bordelaise also started
with AB.15.

 

[hesham]

This is probably an excellent example. I attach an extract of officicial synthesis document from French Air Ministry about this C1 program designated MT-CPT4, including its 4 editions: 13 July 1934, 22 August 1934, 17 December 1934 and 16 November 1935, as well as the next C1 program: the A23 of 1936. I also add my own tables.
All the 1934 C1 prototypes were initially developped from private funds by their respective manufacturers.

The Blériot-Spad 710 was eliminated (crashed).
The Makhonine 110 is a pure private study for a potential C1, probably designed for this program, but finally never presented to this competition, never ordered and never built.

The Ministry finally decided to allocate a part of the funds for these programs to buy some foreign competitors for comparision: FK.58, H-75 and Spitfire.

For 1934 C.1 lightweight fighter,and we don't know the Bloch entry,so I think we have to suppose it was
MB.180 ?.

What is about Leduc RL.011,a fighter !?.

 

[PhR]

For 1934 C.1 lightweight fighter,and we don't know the Bloch entry,so I think we have to suppose it was
MB.180 ?.

Of course not!!
We don't know what was this project, Il only appears in CEPANA report, in the list of not selected project. There is no good reason for such hypothesis. It's just an unidentified Bloch light fighter project.

What is about Leduc RL.011,a fighter !?.

I published history and plans of RL 011 fighter in my book: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...à-reaction-jean-lacroze-philippe-ricco.11775/

 

[PhR]

For 1934 C.1 lightweight fighter,and we don't know the Bloch entry,so I think we have to suppose it was
MB.180 ?.

A little bit more information in "Les Ailes" of November 7th, 1935: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65539069/f3.item.zoom

In Courbevoie, in Marcel Bloch factories, […] A single-seater fighter from the new program, a faithful homothetic reduction of its big brothers, will be put into production quickly and should be completed at the end of January.

NB: the Bloch 180 was an unbuild seaplane project.

 

[hesham]

NB: the Bloch 180 was an unbuild seaplane project.

Where is that ?,and if it was a civil or military aircraft ?.

 

[PhR]

Where is that ?,and if it was a civil or military aircraft ?.

Oops, forget it. I missed to remove old invalid references from my notes.
It's my mistake due to typos in Les Ailes magazine (May 19th, September 9th, and October 13th, 1938). in fact, in the 3 cases, it's the Bloch 480.

 

[hesham]

Oops, forget it. I missed to remove old invalid references from my notes.
It's my mistake due to typos in Les Ailes magazine (May 19th, September 9th, and October 13th, 1938). in fact, in the 3 cases, it's the Bloch 480.

Generally,the aircraft (MB.480) was completed in March 1938 ?,thus,my theory may be right about MB.180,as
lightweight fighter project ?.

 

[hesham]

*** For the year 1935



- Long range maritime flying boat; Breguet Br.710,Br.730 & Br.730bis,CAMS-141 (Potez),Latecoere Late.610 & Late.611 and Liore et Olivier LeO H.440


- Torpedo bomber seaplane ; Liore et Olivier LeO H-46,Amiot-150,Farman F.410,Loire-240 (later became Loire-Nieuport LN-10),Fouga Design and Bloch MB.480


- Two seat combat and light bomber; Dewoitine design


- Transport seaplane; Liore et Olivier LeO H-246,Loire-102M


-"B.5" five seat bomber; Potez B5,Amiot-180,Bloch MB.165,Dewoitine D.800,Farman F.223 and SNCAC NC.110

 

[Apophenia]

...thus,my theory may be right about MB.180,as lightweight fighter project ?

Elsewhere, you had listed the MB 180 as a twin-engined light transport project.

 

[PhR]

my theory may be right about MB.180,as lightweight fighter project ?.

There is absolutely no reason to imagine that. Until you find a clue, please consider this as completely invalid!

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1935

- Torpedo bomber seaplane ; Liore et Olivier LeO H-46,Amiot-150,Farman F.410,Loire-240
(later became Loire-Nieuport LN-10) and Bloch MB.480

This is the MT-CPT9 program. I published the detailed history of NC-410 (ex Farman F.410) in AFM, as well as the history of MB.480 in Avions magazine and in my first volume about Marcel Bloch. Gerard Bousquet have published the history of LN.10 in Air Magazine and in his book about Loire.
I also published a photo of the Fouga competitor wind-tunnel model in my book (missing in your list).

 

[hesham]

Elsewhere, you had listed the MB 180 as a twin-engined light transport project.

That's only my earlier speculation,but I think it was wrong.

This is the MT-CPT9 program. I published the detailed history of NC-410 (ex Farman F.410) in AFM, as well as the history of MB.480 in Avions magazine and in my first volume about Marcel Bloch. Gerard Bousquet have published the history of LN.10 in Air Magazine and in his book about Loire.
I also published a photo of the Fouga competitor wind-tunnel model in my book (missing in your list).

You are right,I missed it,here it's from Docavia.

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1935

-"B.5" five seat bomber; Potez B5

I suppose you are speaking about the attached B5?

 

[hesham]

I suppose you are speaking about the attached B5?

I suspect in Amiot-180,it was for 1930/31 competition,and Dewoitine D.800 was for 1937 contest,also for SNCAC NC.110,the company had been formed in 1936 ?!.

 

[PhR]

I suspect in Amiot-180,it was for 1930/31 competition,and Dewoitine D.800 was for 1937 contest,also
for SNCAC NC.110,the company had been formed in 1936 ?!.

The history of B5 programs is complicated. A first edition was published in 1935 and modified in 1936. Some project were selected to cover this program and few prototype ordered (see attached).

In parallel, the Air Force general staff published a new specification for B5 in September 1936. So, at that time, 2 different programs were running in parallel. The Air Ministry published the official specification A20 two months later, which replaced the previous B5 editions, and the competition restarted.
Then, this new A20/B5 was updated 3 times in 1937 and 1938.

I also suspect a confusion between Amiot 180 and Amiot 380, but this is noted like this in original Ministry archive documents.

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1935


- Long range maritime flying boat; Breguet Br.710,Br.720 & Br.730,CAMS-141 (Potez),Latecoere
Late.610 & Late.611 and Liore et Olivier LeO H.440

It's the MP-CPT10 program. For me, the Breguet 720 is a BN4 that does not fit this specification.
Also missing in your list: the Breguet 730bis, which became Breguet 830.

 

[hesham]

I also suspect a confusion between Amiot 180 and Amiot 380, but this is noted like this in original Ministry archive documents.

I can solve this,it's Amiot-180 already of 1935,because in 1934,Amiot re-allocated many designations,that
included; 150,160 & 170,meaning he re-used them again in another concepts,so the natural development
was Type-180,then in 1938 he created Type-380,and I have a drawing to Amiot-180 as a BN.5,and not B.5,
we can say; it's second use of the designation (Amiot-180/II).

And if you see that drawing,it clearly appeared as a modern version of Type-143,nothing more.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/secm-amiot-designations.29718/page-2

 

[hesham]

*** For the year 1936



-"C.1" single seat fighter; Bloch MB.152,MB.153,MB.154 & MB.155,,Arsenal VG.33,VG.34,VG.35,VG.36,VG.37 & VG.38,SNCAO CAO.200,Dewoitine D.520 & D.540,ANF-Mureaux-190,Leduc RL-011 and Potez-230,
lightweight SFCA Lignel 40,Payen Pa.110 C.1 & Pa.112,Bloch MB.700,,Aubert
PA-70 & Bugatti 110P,Caudron C.714,C.715,C.760,C.770,C.771 & C.780,Dewoitine D.550,Mureaux-Potez 230 and Roussel R.30


-Long range transatlantic flying boat; Latecoere Late.631,Potez-CAMS 161,SNCASE SE.200,and Delanne DL-70


-Trainer and tourist aircraft; Potez-60,Farman F.451 & F.480,Salmson D.6 Cri-Cri,Caudron C.275,Mauboussin M.112 & M.120,SPCA Peryet Taupin,Avia XIA,XVA,111 & 151,Sablier 40 and Leopoldoff



-"T.3" army co-operation and trainer aircraft; Potez P.220,P.566,P.63/11,P.63/14 & P.63/15,Hanriot H.240,SNCAC NC.510.01,NC.510,02,NC.510.03,NC.511,
NC.512,NC.530,NC.530.01,NC.540 & NC.550,SNCAO CAO.400,
Dewoitine D.670,D.671,D.700,D.720 & D.721,Caudron CR.830,
Bloch MB.171,MB.500 & MB.800 and Caproni Ca.313

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1936


-"T.3" army co-operation and trainer aircraft; Potez P.220,P.566,P.63/11,P.63/14 & P.63/15,
Hanriot H.240,SNCAC NC.510.01,NC.510,02,NC.510.03,NC.511,
NC.512,NC.530,NC.530.01,NC.540 & NC.550,SNCAO CAO.400,
Dewoitine D.670,D.671,D.700,D.720 & D.721,Caudron CR.830,
Bloch MB.171,MB.500 & MB.800 and Caproni Ca.313

You must remove Potez 63-11, Bloch 171 and Bloch 500. They were not T3.
There was only one NC-510. The 02 was the NC-511 and the 03 was the NC-512. They were all 3 purchased under 1158/7 order issued 28th August 1937.

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1936

-"C.1" single seat lightweight fighter; Bloch MB.152 & MB.700,Caudron C.714,Arsenal VG.33,Aubert PA-70,
Dewoitine D.520 & D.550,ANF-Mureaux-190,Potez-230,Bugatti 110P,SFCA Lignel 40,
Payen Pa.110 C.1 & Pa.112 and Leduc RL-011

This list mixes 2 different categories of C1 program A23:
- The "normal" C1 (VG.33, MB.152, D.520, MS.450, CAO.200, etc.)
- The "lightweight" C1 (MB.700, Bugatti, Lignel, Payen, Roussel, etc.)

See here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ifications-1919-1939.22273/page-5#post-715200

 

[hesham]

You must remove Potez 63-11, Bloch 171 and Bloch 500. They were not T3.
There was only one NC-510. The 02 was the NC-511 and the 03 was the NC-512. They were all 3 purchased under 1158/7 order issued 28th August 1937.

Now how come,in Le Fana magazine,they displayed all contenders in this competition ?!.

 

[hesham]

The history of B5 programs is complicated. A first edition was published in 1935 and modified in 1936. Some project were selected to cover this program and few prototype ordered (see attached).

In parallel, the Air Force general staff published a new specification for B5 in September 1936. So, at that time, 2 different programs were running in parallel. The Air Ministry published the official specification A20 two months later, which replaced the previous B5 editions, and the competition restarted.
Then, this new A20/B5 was updated 3 times in 1937 and 1938.

I also suspect a confusion between Amiot 180 and Amiot 380, but this is noted like this in original Ministry archive documents.

Also what was Wibault W.100,we know it had been developed as a transport aircraft ?.

 

[hesham]

The history of B5 programs is complicated. A first edition was published in 1935 and modified in 1936. Some project were selected to cover this program and few prototype ordered (see attached).

Again,the Potez B5 can't be supposed as Type-660,because this competition was from 1934,and Type-661
was appeared in 1938,so the previous designation (660) may create in 1937,but logically we can assume it
took Potez-55 ?

 

[Stargazer]

Also what was Wibault W.100,we know it had been developed as a transport aircraft ?.

Philippe himself clearly stated in this article from Avions Nos. 98-100 that the Wibault 100 or (Air Wibault 100) was the very large transport started before the war, and also designated as the "Wib.670" in some sources.

 

[PhR]

Now how come,in Le Fana magazine,they displayed all contenders in this competition ?!.

Yes, I know. I participated to this article : I provided the photos of the Bloch 500 to illustrate it. This information comes from Alain Marchand 25 years ago. In the text, Marchand underlines that, strangely, the Bloch 500 does not fit with all the specification. But since this, I found more information in Air Ministry archives, and I can confirm that the reason is that it was designed for another program and it was not a T3. The only Bloch project for T3 was the second Bloch 800.

 

[PhR]

Also what was Wibault W.100,we know it had been developed as a transport aircraft ?.

Please find attached the original source: an extract of the report from Air Ministry material committee of April 8th, 1938. They clearly state that Michel Wibault proposes a B5 based on its W.100 model under study at Arsenal. No more details.

 

[PhR]

Again,the Potez B5 can't be supposed as Type-660,because this competition was from 1934,and Type-661
was appeared in 1938,so the previous designation (660) may create in 1937,but logically we can assume it
took Potez-55 ?

I agree. This hypothesis comes from Michel Borget and I was never able to confirm it. Jean-Louis Coroller also sayed to me that he never found any confirmation of this in Potez achives. I remove it from my tables.

 

[PhR]

Now how come,in Le Fana magazine,they displayed all contenders in this competition ?!.

This list was published 25 years ago. Now I can fix some errors of this list. I attach my updated list, as well as an official one from French Air Ministry archives.
As you see at the end of the list from le Fana, the Potez 63-11 was not a T3. It has been used as replacement because none of the T3 contenders was finally selected.

 

[hesham]

Yes, I know. I participated to this article : I provided the photos of the Bloch 500 to illustrate it. This information comes from Alain Marchand 25 years ago. In the text, Marchand underlines that, strangely, the Bloch 500 does not fit with all the specification. But since this, I found more information in Air Ministry archives, and I can confirm that the reason is that it was designed for another program and it was not a T3. The only Bloch project for T3 was the second Bloch 800.

And what about TU magazine in reply # 182 ?!.

 

[hesham]

Please find attached the original source: an extract of the report from Air Ministry material committee of April 8th, 1938. They clearly state that Michel Wibault proposes a B5 based on its W.100 model under study at Arsenal. No more details.

Of course,that was projected as a bomber version of transport aircraft,and may the twin engined fighter,which came after,is called W.200 ?.

 

[PhR]

And what about TU magazine in reply # 182 ?!.

Charles Claveau has just repeated what was published before him, including this famous error. This erroneous information was first published by Interavia en September 1938!

 

[PhR]

Of course,that was projected as a bomber version of transport aircraft,and may the twin engined fighter,
which came after,are W.200 ?.

What you says here has absolutely no sense!
Even with the same ID, Michel Wibault has proposed a 4-engine bomber to answer to B5 program, not a transport! The document speeks about a W.100 for B5, not the AW.100 for transport! There is no discussion about any fighter in the document I attached. Please don't mix everything.

 

[hesham]

What you says here has absolutely no sense!
Even with the same ID, Michel Wibault has proposed a 4-engine bomber to answer to B5 program, not a transport! The document speeks about a W.100 for B5, not the AW.100 for transport! There is no discussion about any fighter in the document I attached. Please don't mix everything.

I don't mix anything,I spoke about 1937 C.2/C.3 competition ?,and I supposed this designation.

 

[hesham]

*** For the year 1937



-"C.1" single seat fighter; Morane-Saulnier MS.450,SNCAO-200,Dewoitine D.520,Arsenal VG.33,Bloch MB.151 & MB.152,Roussel-30,Payen Pa.110C,Caudron
CR.760,CR.770 & CR.780 and also again; Bloch-700,Potez-230 and
Payen Pa.112


-"C.3/C.2" two/three seat fighter; Potez P-670 & P-671,Hanriot (SNCAC) NC.600,Hanriot H.270,SNCASE SE.100,SE.101 & 102,Breguet Br.700,Caudron C.900,Payen Pa.310CB & Pa.323AC,Delanne DL-120,Wibault twin engined fighter and CAPRA-40

-"A-75" single seat seaplane fighter; Potez-CAMS-170,SNCAO-500,Dewoitine (SNCAM) HD.780 and Latecoere Late.670,671,672,673 & 674


-"AB.2/3" two/three seat attack bomber aircraft; Bloch MB.170,Goudrou G.50,Breguet Br.691,Br.693 & Br.695,Dewoitine (SNCAM) HD.770,HD.771 &
HD.772 and Caudron CR.850


- High altitude bomber aircraft; Dewoitine D.600,D.601,D.610 & D.611


-"B.5" five seat heavy bomber aircraft; SNCAO CAO-700 & CAO-710,Bloch MB.135,MB.162 & MB.163,Potez-660,Amiot-380,SNCAC NC.110 & NC.140,Farman (SNCAC NC.223.3) Air Couzinet AC.20,Breguet Br.480,Br.481 & 482,Wibault W.100,
Delanne DL.150 & DL.151 and Dewoitine (SNCAM) D.800 & D.820


- Light catapult launch observation aircraft; Breguet Br.800,Dewoitine (SNCAM) HD.730 and Gourdou G.120


- Topedo bomber and recce seaplane; SNCAO CAO-600,Dewoitine (SNCAM) HD.750 and Latecoere Late.299


-"Ed.2/3" two/three seat trainer seaplane, FBA-350,Potez-SNCAN-180,Minie-Cassin MC.10,Bregeut Br.790,Dewoitine (SNCAM) HD.740,SNCAO CAO.30 and SNCASE SE.400

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1937

C1: no new program in 1937. Only an update of the A23 (1936).
C3: no new program in 1937. Only an update of the A22 (1936). Became C2 in 1938.
A75: category HC1, published 10/10/1938.
AB2/3: no new program in 1937. Only an update of B2 1936 program, became B2/AB2 in 1937, then renamed A51 for AB3 in 1938.
High altitude bombers: no program. Only private initiatives (Amiot, Arsenal, Bloch, Breguet, Dewoitine, LeO and SNCAC)
B5: no new program in 1937. Only an update of A20 (1936)
Light catapult observation seaplanes: program A50 for category SB published 13 Jul. 1937.
Torpedo bomber: no new program in 1937. Only an update of the A47 (1936).
Ed2: program A49. 3 editions in 1937.

Missing for 1937:
- A46 for Three-seater coastal surveillance seaplane
- A62 for three-seater folding-wing catapultable on-board surveillance seaplane

 

[hesham]

*** For the year 1938


- A.38 two seat primary trainer aircraft; Caudron-Renault CR.870 and Dewoitine D.570 & D.580,Morane-Saulnier MS.430 & MS.435 and SFCA Lignel 16


-Three seat shipboard recce flying boat or seaplane; SNCAC NC.420,
Breguet Br.792 and Gourdou G.130

-"A.3" three seat observation aircraft; Caudron C.820


- C.1 single seat shipboard fighter, SNCAO CAO.1000,Dewoitine D.590,Latecoere Late.675 and Bloch MB.720

 

[hesham]

Light catapult observation seaplanes: program A50 for category SB published 13 Jul. 1937.
Torpedo bomber: no new program in 1937. Only an update of the A47 (1936).
Ed2: program A49. 3 editions in 1937.

Missing for 1937:
- A46 for Three-seater coastal surveillance seaplane
- A62 for three-seater folding-wing catapultable on-board surveillance seaplane

Many thanks,but what are the contenders to all of these competitions ?.

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1938

- B4: it's the A21. The first edition was launched end of 1936, the 4th and last one in 1939. No edition published in 1938.
- What you call Ent.2 (never heard about it) was in fact the A38 for category P2 (CR.870, D.570, D.580, MS.430, MS.435 and Lignel 16).
- The 3-seat shipboard is the A62, published in 1937, as I listed before.
- A3 is the A24, first published in Sep. 1936, then updated in Feb. 1937.
- C1 is the A80 published in 1939, not in 1938.
- Racer: no program. The Lignel 16 answers to A38 for category C2.

 

[hesham]

*** For the year 1939


-"C.1" single seat fighter; Bloch MB.157,MB.1010 & MB.1011,
Dewoitine (SNCAM) D.550,D.551 & D.552,Breguet Br.820,Arsenal
VG.39,VG.40 & VB.10,Morane-Saulnier MS.460 and Caudron C.910


-"C.2" two seat fighter; Delanne DL.10,Bloch MB.1040 and Caudron C.900


- Liaison and artillery light aircraft; Gourdou G.90,Levasseur PL-400,
SFAN-11 and Caudron C.880


-"B.4" four seat medium bomber; Amiot-400,SNCAC NC.150 and Delanne DL.150 & DL.151