French Aircraft Specifications 1919-1939

[FFX]

t 7000 m, ceiling 8500 m, range 3 h.

Numerous prototypes: Bernard AB.10, Buscaylet-De Monge 5.2, De Marçay 4, Dewoitine D.1, Gourdou-Leseurre 30, 31, 40, Hanriot HD.26, HD.27, Letord-Béchereau, Lioré-et-Olivier Le

Technical specifications were renewed in 1921, in seven categories (instead of eleven), including two for fighters:

- C.1, any altitude, 240 km/h at 7000 m, ceiling 8500 m, range 3 h.

Numerous prototypes: Bernard AB.10, Buscaylet-De Monge 5.2, De Marçay 4, Dewoitine D.1, Gourdou-Leseurre 30, 31, 40, Hanriot HD.26, HD.27, Letord-Béchereau, Lioré-et-Olivier LeO.9, Nieuport-Delage NiD.37, Spad 81, Wibault 3, Wibault 5
The Spad 81 and Dewoitine D.1 were selected in late 1923.

- Can.2, 200 km/h at 3000 m, ceiling 5500 m

One prototype only: Lioré-et-Olivier LeO.8. It is said that the aircraft manufacturers showed little interest because of the limited production expected.

The category Cap.2 was abandoned but several prototypes were ordered in 1921 for experiments with the Rateau supercharger: Gourdou-Leseurre F (later GL.50), H (later GL.51), Hanriot HD.15, Potez 11, Spad 36.

I'm sorry to disturb you, has C.1 technical specification not been updated since 1921?

 

[hesham]

I'm sorry to disturb you, has C.1 technical specification not been updated since 1921?

Of course it was changed;

As the 1921 C1 program had only a transitory character, a new single-seat fighter program was
issued by S.T.Aé. at the start of 1923, even before any decision had been taken on the prototypes
from the previous program.

This new program was in fact only an update of that of 1919, mainly focused on increasing the
payload and armament, which was to consist of 4 machine guns, i.e. 2 hood Vickers and 2 Wing
dinghy with 500 cartridges each. This armament was also subsequently reduced to that specified
in 1921, namely 2 hood weapons, but the wing had to be provided for the possible addition of
Darne. The required performances remained those of 1921, not satisfied until then, because it
was hoped that more powerful engines than the Hispano-Suiza of 300 hp, the only one chosen
for the transition phase, could soon become available in series. The range should be able to be
extended from 3 to 4 hours of flight at cruising speed. The fuel tanks were requested protected
and releasable or, failing this last point, with rapid emptying. Varying slightly according to the
maximum weight of the airplane, the static test coefficient had
been reduced to around 11. The planes of the program had to be able to be
used for photographic reconnaissance missions thanks to a device
semi-automatic type Duchatelier D 3.

Like its predecessors, the C 1 program of 1923 was favored by many
aircraft manufacturers whose projects, drawn up for the "competition" which was to begin
in September 1924, crowded the examination commission of the Technical Service.
Considering the fact that several of them did not make it past the stadium
draft, it is difficult to cite them all without risk of omission. The
The most significant devices are listed below, classified according to the type
of proposed engine:

 

[hesham]

for the year 1933

- Transport aircraft for Air France; Dewoitine D.620,Bloch-300,Romano R.100,Wibault (Wib.330 maybe) and Breguet Br.440?,also maybe Amiot-160 & Amiot-170

Also for this competition,the Couzinet AC.120 was involved.

 

[hesham]

for the year 1923


- "C.1" single seat fighter; Buscalet-Bechereau BB-2,Dewoitine D.9,D.12,D.13,
D.15,D.19 & D.21,Hanriot HD.31,Loire-Gourdou et Leseurre LGL.32,Nieuport Ni.42,Ni.44 & Ni.46,Breguet Br.24,Wibault Wib.7 & Wib.9,Bernard 12,14 & 15,SPAD S-511,S-512,S-514,S-611,S-612,S-613,S-614
& S-615,Potez 23 & 26 and Gourdou et Leseurre GL.33

Also Morane-Saulnier MS.46 and MS.49 were involved.

 

[hesham]

for 1921

- Transport and airliner aircraft; Breguet XX,Caudron C.74,Farman F.90,Mureaux Mo.10 and Potez-X

Also Nieuport NiD-30T2 was involved.

 

[Fcl]

Hi,


for the year 1930


.../...


-"TOR.2/3" two/three seat torpedo bomber seaplane; CAMS-60,Denhaut design and Farman F.210



.../...


any additions or corrections are welcome

Hi Hesham

Do you have more details about Denhaut design for the torpedo bomber seaplane ?
I never heard of it. Do you have some additional information and/or a source?

Normally in 1930 Denhaut was still with Villiers. He leaves it or he is fired in 1931 before end of Villiers company...

thanks in advance

 

[hesham]

Hi Hesham

Do you have more details about Denhaut design for the torpedo bomber seaplane ?
I never heard of it. Do you have some additional information and/or a source?

Normally in 1930 Denhaut was still with Villiers. He leaves it or he is fired in 1931 before end of Villiers company...

thanks in advance

Hi Fcl,

unfortunately no more Info had been appeared,and for Denhaut projects,please see;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/denhaut-bellanger-denhaut-aircraft-projects.19502/

 

[Fcl]

Thank you Hesham

Denhaut was the seaplane/flyingboat specialist. I don't see him proposing a torpedo-type seaplane project on his own. Perhaps he only made the floats for one of his employers?

FYI François Denhaut worked chronologically for:
- Bellanger Frères
- France Aviation
- Ateliers d'aviation François Villiers

Problem is that between each period when he had an employer, he continued to propose projects with his own name...
Difficult to distinguish projects under one's own name from those under one's employer's name
regards

 

[hesham]

Hi Fcl,

not so difficult,and later I will open a topic for his activities,and there were two three engined military flying
boat projects,one in 1930 and another in 1932,so may the 1930 was called Villiers-330 ?.

 

[Fcl]

I suppose Villiers project for the Exploration program (Breguet Bizete as winner + Loire 70) was Vil 33 but never proposed as Villiers bankruptcy.
Vil 330 was two engined version from the three engine but for which program? Lots of unknown information :-(

 

[hesham]

I suppose Villiers project for the Exploration program (Breguet Bizete as winner + Loire 70) was Vil 33 but never proposed as Villiers bankruptcy.
Vil 330 was two engined version from the three engine but for which program? Lots of unknown information :-(

Hi, Fcl,

what is the source for Villier-330 as a twin engined ?.

 

[Fcl]

Certainely the last Viliers project. Source is ONERA (SHD Châtellerault - France) .

In fact, not sure Vil. 33 was a three engined configuration. One source from Ministère de l'Air mention as four engines !
If not for exploration program, maybe for Atlantic north program (like the Latecoère 521)

regards

 

[hesham]

Oh my God,

you can access to Onera,we have many unknown projects from it with no explanations,can
you help ?.

 

[Fcl]

Unfortunately only the ones regarding Denhaut projets, few in fact, not all..
ONERA PAPERS are located in Chatellerault, SHD site, a little town lost in the middle of France. But you're right huge technical documents are present in several archives including those from ONERA papers

 

[hesham]

Unfortunately only the ones regarding Denhaut projets, few in fact, not all..
ONERA PAPERS are located in Chatellerault, SHD site, a little town lost in the middle of France. But you're right huge technical documents are present in several archives including those from ONERA papers

That's clearly explain the early design (three engined) may called Villiers-300 ?,also can
you solve the mysteries of Onera ?,here;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/little-known-french-projects-and-prototypes.15821/page-8#post-372674

 

[Fcl]

Not at all, sorry... Just one, andré Levy has no link with Levy Brothers, Georges and Jacques Pierre. His little factory was in front of Argenteuil. Suburb Paris at Gennevilliers.. I'm still looking for a picture....

 

[hesham]

One source from Ministère de l'Air mention as four engines !
If not for exploration program, maybe for Atlantic north program (like the Latecoère 521)

- Long range flying boat; Loire-70,CAMS-E32,Latecoere Late.580,Breguet Br.520 & Br.521,
Liore et Olivier H-42 and Latham 43 & 47

Hi Fcl,in this competition,there is no mention to Villiers,are you sure ?.

 

[Stargazer]

French type specifications (from Air Service Information Circular No. 391, November 1, 1922)

 

[Stargazer]

Also, from Aviation, March 28, 1921:

 

[hesham]

French type specifications (from Air Service Information Circular No. 391, November 1, 1922)

View attachment 719626

Nice find,and that's the most specifications from 1919 to 1922,thanks.

 

[Fcl]

Hi!
from from Aviation, March 28, 1921

In fact this naming convention has been in progress since the beginning of 1916 in the official French documents of the SFA and STAé.
Regards

 

[hesham]

Hi!
from from Aviation, March 28, 1921

In fact this naming convention has been in progress since the beginning of 1916 in the official French documents of the SFA and STAé.
Regards

Thank you FCL,and do you have a new projects from Onera or something
else ?.

 

[Fcl]

Hi,
We are finalizing a book on François Denhaut and his aeronautical projects (1908-1936). A book in French but could also be an English version if there is demand.
Regards

 

[hesham]

Hi,
We are finalizing a book on François Denhaut and his aeronautical projects (1908-1936). A book in French but could also be an English version if there is demand.
Regards

Great news FCL,

and what is new more than this topic ?,

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/denhaut-bellanger-denhaut-aircraft-projects.19502/

 

[Fcl]

Hi Hesham,

The answer is obviously... the content of the book!

You are considering a lot of project numbering which, from my point of view, does not seem to have existed even at the drawing board level.

An example among several: The P15 has no link with Denhaut and was only a sketch of Percheron for Donnet. The only project that resulted in a prototype was the Donnet-Percheron 10, a three-engine "de haute mer" biplane seaplane that flew and broke up, killing one of the mechanics in 1919.
Regards

 

[PhR]

- Liaison and artillery light aircraft; Gourdou G.90,Levasseur PL-400,
SFAN-11,Caudron-Renault CR.880,Morane-Saulnier MS.500,MS.501,MS.502,MS.503,MS.504 & MS.505

Hello Hesham,
the first part of this list is correct: it's the technical program A77, published in 1939 for category L2.
However, the Morane-Saulnier MS.500 to MS.506 are all part of after-war production of Fieseler 156 variants and cannot be attached to this pre-war program.
Another detail: it's the Caudron C.880, not Caudron-Renault CR.880 (cf. Docavia "Les Avions Caudron Renault" by Mihaly and Robinson, p.264 and "Les avions Caudron" vol. 2 by André Hauet, p.230).

 

[PhR]

it's the Caudron C.880, not Caudron-Renault CR.880 (cf. Docavia "Les Avions Caudron Renault" by Mihaly and Robinson, p.264 and "Les avions Caudron" vol. 2 by André Hauet, p.230).

Hi again,
I apologize, both Mihaly and Hauet are wrong. As we can read on attached photo, the inscription on the tail is:
CR 880
01
CAUDRON
RENAULT

 

[PhR]

-"T.3" army co-operation and trainer aircraft; Potez P.220,P.566,P.63/11,P.63/14 & P.63/15,
Hanriot H.240,SNCAC NC.510.01,NC.510,02,NC.510.03,NC.511,
NC.512,NC.530,NC.530.01,NC.540 & NC.550,SNCAO CAO.400,
Dewoitine D.670,D.671,D.700,D.720 & D.721,Caudron CR.830,
Bloch MB.171,MB.500 & MB.800 and Caproni Ca.313

Program A19 for "Avion bimoteur triplace de corps d'armée et de travail" (Twin-engine, three-seater for army corps and work aircraft). Two editions: December 7th, 1936 and February 2nd, 1938.
Potez 220: it is the Mureaux-Potez 220, which became SNCAN 220 in category A3 instead of T3.
P.63-11: not a T3. Only P.63-14 and P.63-15.
NC.510: 01 is the only NC.510, 02 is the NC.511 and 03 was supposed to be the NC.512 (unbuilt). All 3 ordered by PO 1158/7 signed the 28th of July 1937.
Bloch 171 and Bloch 500 are not attached to T3 program (it will be explained more in detail in the volume 2 of my book about Marcel Bloch).

Missing in this list: Hanriot H.610, SNCAC NC.520, Dewoitine D.710 and Romano 111 that became SE.300.

 

[hesham]

Missing in this list: Hanriot H.610, SNCAC NC.520, Dewoitine D.710 and Romano 111 that became SE.300.

My dear Phillippe,

what was Hanriot H.610 ?!.

 

[PhR]

My dear Phillippe,

what was Hanriot H.610 ?!.

Hello,
my mistake: it was a misprint for Hanriot 510, which is already in your list (NC.510).
I also understood why you have included the Potez 63-11 in your list: it was not a T3, but as none of the prototypes complied to the specification, French Air Force deployed some Potez 63-11 to fulfill the role of T3.

 

[hesham]

My dear Philippe,

even the designation is wrong,it could be SNCAC series "NC".

 

[PhR]

My dear Philippe,

even the designation is wrong,it could be SNCAC series "NC".

Are you really sure ?

 

[hesham]

Are you really sure ?

Of course I am really sure my dear Philippe,the series 5xx was only appeared for SNCAC,and
the last known concept for Hanriot was H-240,and during 1936,the nationalization had begun
by amalgamation of some companies,and in February 1937,the Hanriot and Farman had been
completed merge,but in your report,that's just reference to origin of the design.

 

[PhR]

Of course I am really sure my dear Philippe,the series 5xx was only appeared for SNCAC,and
the last known concept for Hanriot was H-240,and during 1936,the nationalization had begun
by amalgamation of some companies,and in February 1937,the Hanriot and Farman had been
completed merge,but in your report,that's just reference to origin of the design.

The T3 program first edition was published in September 1936, before the nationalizations. The Hanriot 5xx studies started under the initial name of the company, several months before the integration into SNCAC. In addition, they also continued to use the name Hanriot, as you can see directly written on the tail of the NC.510, or in the cover of internal notice.

 

[hesham]

The T3 program first edition was published in September 1936, before the nationalizations. The Hanriot 5xx studies started under the initial name of the company, several months before the integration into SNCAC. In addition, they also continued to use the name Hanriot, as you can see directly written on the tail of the NC.510, or in the cover of internal notice.

Yes,but under the designation H-240,I mean in 2xx series.

 

[PhR]

Yes,but under the designation H-240,I mean in 2xx series.

Sorry, but I do not fully agree.
Hanriot started two different approaches to answer T3 program. One was based on existing Hanriot H.2xx series, and one new design called Hanriot H.5xx.
As it was a new design, they decided to continue few months later with the same series as Hanriot NC.5xx, while the series H.2xx was discontinued and became the NC.6xx. Then, these planes are refered to as Hanriot NC.5xxx, in the press as well as inside the company..

Les Ailes : journal hebdomadaire de la locomotion aérienne / directeur, rédacteur en chef, Georges Houard | 1938-09-15 | Gallica

Les Ailes : journal hebdomadaire de la locomotion aérienne / directeur, rédacteur en chef, Georges Houard | 1938-07-14 | Gallica

This series was started in 1936 as Hanriot H.5xx before becoming Hanriot NC.5xx in 1937 and, later, just NC.5xx.

 

[PhR]

-"C.1" single seat fighter; Morane-Saulnier MS.450,SNCAO-200,Dewoitine D.520,Arsenal
VG.33,Bloch MB.151 & MB.152,Roussel-30,Paten Pa.110C,Caudron
CR.760,CR.770 & CR.780 and also again; Bloch-700,Potez-230 and
Payen Pa.112

This program is the A23. The first specification was published by Air Force General staff June 6th, 1936, then the 3 editions of A23 from Air Ministry: January 12th and June 3rd, 1937, and finally August 13th, 1938. This program is split in two parts:
C1: Arsenal VG.33, 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38, Bloch 152, 153, 154, 155, Loire-Nieuport LN.60 that became CAO.200, Dewoitine D.520 and D.540, and Morane-Saulnier MS.450.

C1 "Light": Aubert Pa.70, Bloch MB.700, Caudron-Renault CR.714, 715, 760, 770, 771 and 780, Payen Pa.110 and Pa.112, Mureaux 230 that became Potez 230, Roussel 30 and SFCA-Lignel 40.

The Bloch 151 results from the previous C1 program, the MT-CPT.4 edited in 1934-35, which also includes the two sub-categories C1 and C1 Light, as it was also the case from previous C1 programs since the C1"Jockey" launched in 1926.

 

[hesham]

I edited many competitions,so I will set it and send year by year in new composing

 

[hesham]

I edited many competitions,so I will set it and send year by year in new composing

As I promised and according to last edit,

*** For 1919

- GR longe range aircraft; SPAD S-28,may Hanriot HD.13 ?,no other tenders are known


- "BP 3" heavy high-altitude bomber; Latecoere Late.6 (no other contenders are known)


- "B 3" three seat day bomber; Caudron C.26 (no other contenders are known)


- "CAP2" Chasse Armee Protection,or two seat army fighter; Gourdou-Leseurre GL-50,Potez-11,
SPAD S-34 & S-40 and Hanriot HD.15


- "CAN2" Chasse Armee Nuit,or two seat night fighter for army; Gourdou-Leseurre GL-51 and Liore
et Olivier LeO-8

- "HB.2" two seat bomber flying boat; Levy-Besson HB.2 and Romano R.1


- "HR.3" three seat recce seaplane; Besson (MB-7 ?),Denhaut-Bellanger


- "HE.2" two seat trainer seaplane; Besson (MB-8 ?)


- C.1 medium-altitude fighter : the Spad 20 (already ordered in 1918),may Hanriot HD.11 ?,and the NiD.29 were selected

 

[hesham]

*** For 1920


- "BP.2" two seat high-altitude bomber; Dewoitine D.2,SPAD-36


- "To.3" three seat Police Colonial; Hanriot HD.18,Potez-XA and Breguet
Br.14 TOE


- "BN.2" two seat night bomber; Dewoitine D.4,Wibault Wib.2,Amiot-100 (Amiot-X),Farman F.50P and Caudron C.53


- "A.2" two seat observation and attack aircraft; Dewoitine D.5,Farman F.110,
Caudron C.55 and SPAD S-36 & S-40


- "A.3" three seat observation and attack aircraft; Caudron C.34,Bleriot-108


- "B.3" three seat day bomber; Caudron C.34 (also)


- "BN.4" four seat night bomber; Bleriot Bl.76


- EP.2 two sear primary trainer aircraft;SPAD S-34