French Aircraft Specifications 1919-1939

[PhR]

*** For the year 1939


-"C.1" single seat fighter; Bloch MB.157,MB.1010 & MB.1011,
Dewoitine (SNCAM) D.550,D.551 & D.552,Breguet Br.820,Arsenal
VG.39,VG.40 & VB.10,Morane-Saulnier MS.460 and Caudron C.910

D.550 was a racer, not a fighter.
VB.10? Where did you find this information? The older mention I found about the VB-10 experimental aircraft is in 1941.
Missing: VG.50, VG.60, VG.70, MB.156, C.900C1, R.30.

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1939

-"C.2" two seat fighter; Delanne DL.10,Bloch MB.1040 and Caudron C.900

The Delanne 10 answers to the previous program: the A22.
Missing: DJ.12, Breguet 700, 810, R.40.

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1939


- Liaison and artillery light aircraft; Gourdou G.90,Levasseur PL-400,
SFAN-11,Caudron-Renault CR.880,Morane-Saulnier MS.500,MS.501,MS.502,MS.503,MS.504 & MS.505

I see with regrets that you are not taking any notice of my remarks: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ifications-1919-1939.22273/page-3#post-676244
It is useless for me to make them.

As a reminder: the MS.500 familly is the after-war continuation of Fi 156 production. Of course they are nothing to do in this pre-war A77 program for category L2!

 

[hesham]

D.550 was a racer, not a fighter.
VB.10? Where did you find this information? The older mention I found about the VB-10 experimental aircraft is in 1941.

That's wrong,

D.550 : 1939 : light fighter, derivative of the D.550 (project),from Docavia

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dewoitine.4652/

- Also from Docavia.

 

[PhR]

That's wrong,

D.550 : 1939 : light fighter, derivative of the D.550 (project),from Docavia

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dewoitine.4652/

- Also from Docavia.

This is a little bit more complicated. In fact, there were discussions during months between the Air Ministry, the General Staff and Dewoitine about the definition of the fighter to be derived from D.550 racer. Some proposals are minimizing the adaptation, with just a very light armament. The alternative was the D.551 with increased wings and weight, and more armament. Finally, only the D.551 was selected. I attach an example of such discussions. Finally, there was no real project for D.550 fighter, just discussion about which definition must be ordered.
You can find more details about D.551 in issue n° 14 of "Les Ailes" magazine recently published: https://www.avions-bateaux.com/produit/magazines-les-ailes/5648

 

[hesham]

*** For the year 1940


- "C.3" three seat fighter aircraft, Caudron C.810


- Torpedo bomber : SNCAO CAO.700M


- Transport aircraft : SNCAO CAO.720

 

[PhR]

*** For the year 1940

As far as I know, no program was launched in 1940.
A CEPANA has rejected the Caudron 810 C3 from A22 program on February 15th, 1938.

 

[hesham]

- Two-seat trainer seaplane, SCAN 10 ?

What about this ?,I am sure it was in 1940 !.

 

[PhR]

What about this ?,I am sure it was in 1940 !.

I don't have it in any of my lists. It was probably studied out of program.

 

[hesham]

This is a little bit more complicated. In fact, there were discussions during months between the Air Ministry, the General Staff and Dewoitine about the definition of the fighter to be derived from D.550 racer. Some proposals are minimizing the adaptation, with just a very light armament. The alternative was the D.551 with increased wings and weight, and more armament. Finally, only the D.551 was selected. I attach an example of such discussions. Finally, there was no real project for D.550 fighter, just discussion about which definition must be ordered.
You can find more details about D.551 in issue n° 14 of "Les Ailes" magazine recently published: https://www.avions-bateaux.com/produit/magazines-les-ailes/5648

I only believe what Docavia said,here it's.

 

[PhR]

I only believe what Docavia said,here it's.

In this case, you agree that, as stated in Docavia, the D.550 fighter is out of program, so you must remove it from the list of competitors.

 

[PhR]

I only believe what Docavia saids.

Even if I agree that Danel and Cuny always did very good job, their interpretation on this topic cannot compete with original Air Ministry archives. Albert Caquot and Michel Détroyat had a better knowledge on the subject in 1938 than Raymond Danel in 1982.
Please never deny primary material just based on publication, even from good authors.

 

[hesham]

To be honest,I am not sure if there was any issue for a programs between 1940 and 1944,but,

*** For the year 1941


- trainer flying boat and seaplane; Breguet Br.860 & SCAN-10 ?


- Postal and transport aircraft; Caudron C-940 and Air-Couzinet AC-103

 

[PhR]

To be honest,I am not sure if there was any issue for a programs between 1940 and 1944,but,

*** For the year 1941


- trainer flying boat and seaplane; Breguet Br.860 & SCAN-10 ?


- Postal and transport aircraft; Caudron C-940 and Air-Couzinet AC-103

After 25 June 1940, all big French manufactures were closed and workers fired.
In the French Free Zone, a Franco-German program was established in 1941, with a list of authorized studies and developments, mainly for civil purpose. Breguet 860 and SCAN.20 were authorized under study number 55 for "Hydravion école". The other ones are not in the list.
Few small private manufacturers tried to continue alone to work on their own machines under German control, such as Makhonine, Payen, Holste, etc.
French Manufacturers were allowed to restart mass production only in August 1941.

AC.103 in 1941? Couzinet and Arsenal stopped their collaboration in 1940. Arsenal migrated to Villeurbane and Couzinet left France for Brazil.

 

[hesham]

-"C.1" single seat fighter; Bloch MB.152,MB.153,MB.154 & MB.155,,Arsenal VG.33,VG.34,VG.35,VG.36
,VG.37 & VG.38,SNCAO CAO.200,Dewoitine D.520 & D.540,ANF-Mureaux-190,Leduc RL-011 and Potez-230,
lightweight SFCA Lignel 40,Payen Pa.110 C.1 & Pa.112,Bloch MB.700,,Aubert PA-70 & Bugatti 110P,Caudron C.714,C.715,C.760,C.770,C.771 & C.780,Dewoitine D.550,Mureaux-Potez 230 and Roussel R.30

In lightweight fighter contest,I forget to mention a Kellner-Bechereau fighter project of 1935/36.

 

[PhR]

In lightweight fighter contest,I forget to mention a Kellner-Bechereau fighter project of 1935/36.

As far as I know, this Kellner-Béchereau project was designed for the previous C1 program: the MT-CPT4 (4 editions 1934-1935).

 

[hesham]

As far as I know, this Kellner-Béchereau project was designed for the previous C1 program: the MT-CPT4 (4 editions 1934-1935).

There were two fighter projects by the company,the first was called KB.30 for
1934 competition,and the second was a fighter of 1935/1936,there is a big possibility to be in 1936 contest.

 

[hesham]

May the Edouard Albert's fighter was involved in 1936/37 C.1 competition ?.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/edouard-albert-designs-and-projects.3907/#post-211154

 

[hesham]

- "AMBC.2" two seat carrier based fighter; Villiers Vil.2,Levasseur PL-5,Nieuport NiD-43 and
Bleriot Bl.118


- "AMC.1" single seat carrier based fighter; Levy-Biche LB.2 & Mureaux Express Marin

I forge to add Villiers Vil.7.

 

[hesham]

-"C.3/C.2" two/three seat fighter; Potez P-670 & P-671,Hanriot (SNCAC) NC.600,Hanriot H.270,
SNCASE SE.100,SE.101 & 102,Breguet Br.700,Caudron C.900,Payen Pa.310CB
& Pa.323AC,Delanne DL-120,Wibault twin engined fighter and CAPRA-40

I add Hanriot H.270 from dear Philippe.

 

[PhR]

Of course I am really sure my dear Philippe,the series 5xx was only appeared for SNCAC,and
the last known concept for Hanriot was H-240,and during 1936,the nationalization had begun
by amalgamation of some companies,and in February 1937,the Hanriot and Farman had been
completed merge,but in your report,that's just reference to origin of the design.

I disagree. As you can see attached, the prototype was officially presented as Hanriot 510.

 

[hesham]

-"C.1" single seat fighter; Bloch MB.152,MB.153,MB.154 & MB.155,,Arsenal VG.33,VG.34,VG.35,VG.36
,VG.37 & VG.38,SNCAO CAO.200,Dewoitine D.520 & D.540,ANF-Mureaux-190,Leduc RL-011 and Potez-230,
lightweight SFCA Lignel 40,Payen Pa.110 C.1 & Pa.112,Bloch MB.700,,Aubert PA-70 & Bugatti 110P,Caudron C.714,C.715,C.760,C.770,C.771 & C.780,Dewoitine D.550,Mureaux-Potez 230 and Roussel R.30

My dear Philippe,please can you explain what was Caudron C.771 as you mentioned ?.

 

[hesham]

-"HBA.2" observation and recce catapult aircraft; Latham-230,Besson MB.35,Levy-Biche LB-4,Gourdou-
Leseurre L2,Romano R.4,FBA-17HL-1,Villiers Vil.11,CAMS-37
and Percheron DP-?

Also Liore et Olivier submitted a project to this competition ?.

 

[hesham]

- "To.3" three seat Police Colonial; Hanriot HD.18,Potez-XA and Breguet
Br.14 TOE

As I know,Mr. Rene Moineau had a seaplane biplane design to this competition ?.

 

[hesham]

- Liaison and artillery light aircraft; Gourdou G.90,Levasseur PL-400,
SFAN-11 and Caudron C.880

Also Morane-Saulnier MS.480 project was involved

 

[hesham]

- Ambulance light aircraft; Bloch Bl-80 & 81,Albert A.11,Guillemin JG.15,JG.40,JG.41,Loire-Gourdou-Leseurre
GL.23TS,Gourdou et Leseurre GL.25,Lorraine-Hanriot LH-21S,SPCA ?, and Potez 42 & 421

But as I know,the Gourdou et Leseurre GL.25 was built in two examples,one as acrobatic version
and the other as racer ?!.

 

[Apophenia]

But as I know,the Gourdou et Leseurre GL.25 was built in two examples,one as acrobatic version
and the other as racer ?!.

The GL 25 (aka Type B7 or revised GL-21C.1) was an aerobatic type - with examples built for Adrienne Bolland and Fernand Malinvaud. The racer was a large-winged Type B3 derivative (a 'civilianised' GL-22C.1) - the 1923 Coupe Michelin being won by André Christiani flying that aircraft.

As for a GL 25 ambulance variant, presumably, that would have been the LGL 23 TS airframe fitted with the GL 25's higher-power Lorraine Algol radial engine.