Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

gral_rj said:
https://www.defesaaereanaval.com.br...-cacas-rafale-obus-caesar-e-mais-um-submarino This is just one of the news(in Portuguese) about the subject. The original report was done by journalist Cláudio Dantas, who works for a news channel(Jovem Pan, which grew from a radio station).
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On November 2, I did a search and the original document was the web page of the Brazilian journalist Claudio Dantas in a publication of October 30, but there was no question of a second-hand Rafale.

A blackfriday de Macron no G20 – Claudio Dantas

claudiodantas.com.br claudiodantas.com.br

The G20 will be a major trade fair for military equipment. In addition to the Italian Giorgia Meloni, who wants to sell M346 light fighters; French President Manuel Macron will also bring his basket of equipment. On the list are 50 Airbus 145 helicopters, 24 Rafale fighters, 36 Caesar wheeled howitzers and an additional Scorpene submarine.
(...)
Now, the French want to replace the Italian AMX fighters and Blackhawk helicopters purchased from the United States. The current Brazilian military leadership is excited about the resumption of a strategic partnership and Lula's anti-Zionist stance can be taken advantage of by the French.
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And, in the link you provide, the article from October 31, which repeats the article from the Dantas webpage from October 30, does not indicate that it is a question of second-hand Rafale.
 
The oldest Rafales are
-the Aéronavale Rafale M (2001)
-the early Rafale F2 (2004). This is where the second-hand airframe were taken for Greece and Croatia (from memory - the countries).
 
Kurapika444 said:
How many used Rafales do they have in stock? Seems like they've got a lot to spare
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I don't understand "In stock" and "Lot to spare". AFAIK, they are all in service. Now, I don't know the availability (the French Air Force hasn't been allowed to publish availability figures for a few years anyway). Otherwise, all French Rafales must be upgraded to F3R standard: the operation began in 2018, and half were equipped in 2021.

There were 9 Rafale M in tranche 1 (all in service) and 16 Rafale M, 25 Rafale B and 7 Rafale C in tranche 2 (=48) . I don't know the numbering of each of the second-hand aircraft exported, but as Greece and Croatia have ordered, second hand, two Rafale Bs and 10 Rafale Cs, each, there are, mathematically, necessarily Rafale Cs of tranche 3 (12M, 11B and 36C = 59) among those sold to them.
 
Deltafan said:
I don't know the numbering of each of the second-hand aircraft exported
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Here are the 12 used Rafales delivered to Greece and first 6 (of 12) to Croatia.

The two seaters were all 16-17 year old Tranche 2.
The single seaters were all ~12 year old Tranche 3 (except for 1 older T2).

Tranche 2 (delivered 2004-2006)
B305 / 2004
B306 / 2005
B315 / 2006 (Croatia)
B318 / 2006 (Croatia)
C103 / 2005

Tranche 3 (delivered 2009 - 2013)
C111 / 2009
C112 / 2009
C118 / 2010
C120 / 2010
C123 / 2010
C124 / 2010 (Croatia)
C128 / 2011
C131 / 2011 (Croatia)
C134 / 2012
C137 / 2012
C141 / 2013 (Croatia)
C143 / 2013
C144 / 2013 (Croatia)

The first batch of 6 Greek Rafales was transferred in late 2021, the 2nd batch in late 2022/early 2023.
The first batch of 6 Croatian Rafales was transferred in late 2023... 2nd batch expected early 2025.

I expect the 6 remaining Croatian Rafale Cs to also be from Tranche 3, and any future second hand sales to be a similar mix of T2 Rafale B and T3 Rafale C.
 
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Deltafan said:
On November 2, I did a search and the original document was the web page of the Brazilian journalist Claudio Dantas in a publication of October 30, but there was no question of a second-hand Rafale.

A blackfriday de Macron no G20 – Claudio Dantas

claudiodantas.com.br claudiodantas.com.br



And, in the link you provide, the article from October 31, which repeats the article from the Dantas webpage from October 30, does not indicate that it is a question of second-hand Rafale.
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Did some checking back. You are right, the original article, and the one I mentioned, do not say 'used' aircraft. I think it was some editorializing on part of the place I first heard the news.
 
The French government are quite happy to help Rafale sales by handing over existing ones from their own military for a knock down price and buying brand new ones for themselves from Dassault. Keeps the production lines going.
 
How many Rafale will have the french AdlAE in the next decade?

« Les livraisons des Rafale doivent être programmées dans cette optique en vue de remplacer les flottes Mirage 2000-5 et Mirage 2000D rénovés [retrait en 2035]. Or, la LPM 2024-2030 fixe à 137 le nombre de Rafale dont disposera l’AAE à l’horizon 2030, soit 48 avions de moins que la cible de 185 Rafale fixée par la LPM 2019-2025. La perte récente de 2 Rafale B et les hypothèses de cessions de Mirage 2000-5 aux FAU laissent présager à ce stade de la programmation un passage sous les 185 avions de chasse pendant 10 ans [2026-2036] », a souligné le rapporteur.
---------------------------//--------------------------

"Rafale deliveries must be scheduled with this in mind in order to replace the renovated Mirage 2000-5 and Mirage 2000D fleets [withdrawal in 2035]. However, the 2024-2030 LPM sets the number of Rafales that the AAE will have at 137 by 2030, i.e. 48 aircraft less than the target of 185 Rafales set by the 2019-2025 LPM. The recent loss of 2 Rafale Bs and the hypotheses of Mirage 2000-5 transfers to the FAU suggest at this stage of the programming a drop below 185 fighter aircraft for 10 years [2026-2036]", the rapporteur stressed.
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www.opex360.com

La France livrera finalement six Mirage 2000-5F à l'Ukraine - Zone Militaire

En janvier 2023, quand le débat portait sur la cession de chars Leopard 2 et Abrams à l'armée ukrainienne, la France fit savoir qu'il n'était pas question
www.opex360.com www.opex360.com
 
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"Rafale deliveries must be scheduled with this in mind in order to replace the renovated Mirage 2000-5 and Mirage 2000D fleets [withdrawal in 2035]. However, the 2024-2030 LPM sets the number of Rafales that the AAE will have at 137 by 2030, i.e. 48 aircraft less than the target of 185 Rafales set by the 2019-2025 LPM.
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The LPM basically pushed the 185 target by five years, to 2035.
The recent loss of 2 Rafale Bs and the hypotheses of Mirage 2000-5 transfers to the FAU suggest at this stage of the programming a drop below 185 fighter aircraft for 10 years [2026-2036]", the rapporteur stressed.
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Damn. This is exactly what I've been saying for a while. France presently (and in the near-term future) doesn't have enough Rafales in service and ordered : to afford the luxury of divesting whatever Mirage 2000s left - the -5F and the -D fleets.

The two major issues are
-the 30 * 2000-5F fleet is being divested to Ukraine in 2025 - rather than being retired in 2035 in France, replaced by Rafales
-the 185 target Rafale fleet for the AdA has been pushed from 2030 to 2035

No surprise that at some point around 2030 there is a gap.
 
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45 Rafale F5s are expected to be ordered by France in 2029, including 12 Rafale Ms for the Navy, intended to replace the Rafale M of the first tranche.

www.opex360.com

Grâce au Rafale F5, la Marine nationale pourra renouveler le tiers de ses chasseurs embarqués - Zone Militaire

En juillet 2021, l'amiral Pierre Vandier, alors chef d'état-major de la Marine nationale , s'était inquiété d'une possible réduction de la flotte de
www.opex360.com www.opex360.com

(...) the French Navy was the first to deploy Rafale F1s (...) in 2001. And it received its last aircraft in 2017. It currently has 42 units, upgraded to the F3R standard. In detail, 36 of them equip the 11F, 12F and 17F fleets. As for the other six, three are assigned to the Saint-Dizier air base for the training of Naval Aviation pilots and three are in reserve.(...)
The 2024-30 LPM (...) decided to give priority to the Air & Space Force [AAE] (...). This is why all the Rafales ordered under the 4th and 5th production tranches [82 aircraft in total] will be intended for it.(...).
according to MP Frank Giletti, rapporteur for programme 178 "Preparation of forces - Air", it is planned to notify the 6th Rafale production tranche in 2029. And this will be "composed of F5 standard aircraft". Of the 45 aircraft to be ordered, 12 will be intended for the French Navy.(...)
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F-2 said:
I thought the F1 got upgraded?
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read://https_omnirole-rafale.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fomnirole-rafale.com%2Fdes-annees-80-a-nos-jours%2Fle-rafale-en-chiffres%2F

1st Tranche (ordered in 1997): 13 Rafale
M1 (flight tests – delivery in September 1999)
M2 to M10 (deliveries between July 2000 and November 2002)
B301 and 302 (flight tests)
C101 (flight tests)
Note the special case of Rafale M2 to M10 which were mothballed between 2008 and 2013. Initially delivered to the F1 standard, all were retrofitted to the F3 standard and (re)delivered to the Navy between 2014 and 2018. This modernization program, approved in 2009, is estimated at 300 million euros.
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H_K said:
Here are the first 6 (of 12) to Croatia.

Tranche 2 (delivered 2006)
B315 / 2006 (Croatia)
B318 / 2006 (Croatia)

Tranche 3 (delivered 2010 - 2013)
C124 / 2010 (Croatia)
C131 / 2011 (Croatia)
C141 / 2013 (Croatia)
C144 / 2013 (Croatia)

The first batch of 6 Croatian Rafales was transferred in late 2023... 2nd batch expected early 2025.

I expect the 6 remaining Croatian Rafale Cs to also be from Tranche 3.
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7th Croatian Rafale has just been delivered and confirmed as ex-AdlA serial no C130 (delivered 2011)… so as expected from Tranche 3.

Updated list for Croatia:
Tranche 2 (delivered 2006)
B315 / 2006
B318 / 2006

Tranche 3 (delivered 2010 - 2013)
C124 / 2010
C130 / 2011
C131 / 2011
C141 / 2013
C144 / 2013
 
French DGA in discussion to launch a new program for a 20% thrust increased Rafale M-88 engine (to 9t), a program named T-rex:

À l’occasion d’une question posée à Président de Safran Electronics et Defense, Franck Saudo, ce dernier a confirmé que des discussions étaient en cours, avec la DGA, pour réaliser une nouvelle version du moteur M88 dans le cadre du programme Rafale F5.

Baptisée programme T-REX, celle-ci doit permettre de pousser jusqu’à 9 tonnes avec post-combustion, soit une hausse de 20 % de la poussée du moteur, une augmentation décisive du moteur M88 aussi bienvenue pour l’évolution du Rafale, que pour le maintien des compétences de motoriste complet pour avion d’arme de Safran.
----------------------------//+++**+++**//------------------------------------------------------

In response to a question put to the President of Safran Electronics and Defense, Franck Saudo, the latter confirmed that discussions were underway with the DGA to produce a new version of the M88 engine as part of the Rafale F5 program.

Called the T-REX program, this should allow thrust up to 9 tons with afterburner, i.e. a 20% increase in engine thrust, a decisive increase in the M88 engine that is as welcome for the evolution of the Rafale as it is for maintaining Safran's skills as a complete engine manufacturer for military aircraft.
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meta-defense.fr

Avec le programme T-REX, Safran travaille sur une variante 9 tonnes du réacteur M88 pour le Rafale F5

Baptisée programme T-REX, celle-ci doit permettre de pousser jusqu'à 9 tonnes avec post-combustion, soit une hausse de 20 % de la poussée du moteur, une augmentation décisive du moteur M88 aussi bienvenue pour l'évolution du Rafale, que pour le maintien des compétences de motoriste complet pour...
meta-defense.fr meta-defense.fr

I am wondering then if that would not involves a radical front facia modification with different inlets and if the Levcon we saw on the tunnel model would not be retrofitted to the F5 model.
 
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TomcatViP said:
French DGA in discussion to launch a new program for a 20% thrust increased Rafale M-88 engine (to 9t), a program named T-rex:



meta-defense.fr

Avec le programme T-REX, Safran travaille sur une variante 9 tonnes du réacteur M88 pour le Rafale F5

Baptisée programme T-REX, celle-ci doit permettre de pousser jusqu'à 9 tonnes avec post-combustion, soit une hausse de 20 % de la poussée du moteur, une augmentation décisive du moteur M88 aussi bienvenue pour l'évolution du Rafale, que pour le maintien des compétences de motoriste complet pour...
meta-defense.fr meta-defense.fr

I am wondering then if that would not involves a radical front facia modification with different inlets and if the Levcon we saw on the tunnel model would not be retrofitted to the F5 model.
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That would put it around typhoon level thrust?
 
This is... awesome. Where to start ? Rafale refueling A400M, rather than the other way around ? Oh wait, this is just to simulate a E-2D Hawkeye. Because Rafale will be the only tanker on the CdG deck. But of course Rafales can refuel from MRTT. And A400M can also be used as tanker. For helicopters. Or... Rafales. Things coming full circle.
 
More Rafales for India this time for Rafale-M carrier based variants, I take it that is to replace the MiG-29K or at first to supplement them?
 
3 more Scorpene is also a very serious upgrade for their Navy. Congrats both to Naval and Dassault.

One question however, is that we will be given to see a Rafale, a M model obviously, tanking a submarine?

Would that be at an airshow or a Naval fair?
 
Deino said:
You really should stop spreading posts from this site!

Anyway, ... and still - at least from what I heard - the lift & hangar issue is not yet solved.
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It's not just from the Army Recognition site. Among others:
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Mega Rafale fighter & Scorpene sub deals to be inked with France by next month: Navy chief - Times of India

India is set to finalize two major defense deals with France, worth around Rs 1 lakh crore, for 26 Rafale-Marine fighter jets and three additional Scorpene submarines. These deals follow an earlier Rs 32,350 crore contract for 31 armed MQ-9B Predator drones with the US. The new acquisitions will...
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Otherwise, I have my doubts that any customer would choose an aircraft (here after comparative tests with another aircraft, in particular with heavy load carrying tests) for an aircraft carrier that he cannot use on an aircraft carrier... So I don't know if the aircraft can be used with the current elevators and hangars (I haven't measured them), but I imagine that this will be settled at least at the time of entry in service...
 
Deltafan said:
Otherwise, I have my doubts that any customer would choose an aircraft (here after comparative tests with another aircraft, in particular with heavy load carrying tests) for an aircraft carrier that he cannot use on an aircraft carrier... So I don't know if the aircraft can be used with the current elevators and hangars (I haven't measured them), but I imagine that this will be settled at least at the time of entry in service...
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My understanding was the Rafale needed to have the wingtips removed to fit on the elevators and part of the deal was Dassault will ensure this was a simple and easy to accomplish task. I don't have a media article as source for this, heard from someone in the know. Hence take that for what it is, a faith promoting rumor.
 
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Ozair said:
My understanding was the Rafale needed to have the wingtips removed to fit on the elevators and part of the deal was Assault will ensure this was a simple and easy to accomplish task. I don't have a media article as source for this, heard from someone in the know. Hence take that for what it is, a faith promoting rumor.
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Well, that's what is said, but a year ago I had a very intensive conversation with an Indian analyst whom I respect very much and interestingly he not only agreed with me on most (in fact ALL) of the concerns I raised, but said that there is simply no solution.

The fact is (as far as he knows) that the lifts on the Vikrant in particular are too small and the hangar doors and openings in the fuselage are too small too. Consequently, removing the wingtips (and not just the launch rails for AAM) is actually an option, but India has not yet officially commissioned this and apparently does not want to pay for the modification or certification. The alternative would be a conversion including cutting open the hull structure of the carrier to install wider doors and to accommodate larger lifts, but there is no plan for this either... according to his assessment and knowledge, this remains unresolved and the Rafales will have to remain just on deck... the IN is silent on this!

As I said, this is not mine... but I would be happy to learn more from anyone with better knowledge.
 
Safran hopes to launch the T-REX project to equip the Rafale F5 with a much more powerful engine (9T instead of 7.5T)
www.opex360.com

Safran espère lancer le projet T-REX pour doter le Rafale F5 d'une motorisation beaucoup plus puissante - Zone Militaire

Ayant anticipé le fait que l'avion de combat de nouvelle génération issu du programme "Système de combat aérien du futur" , mené en coopération avec
www.opex360.com www.opex360.com
Having anticipated the fact that the new generation fighter [NGF – New Generation Fighter] from the “Future Air Combat System” [FCAS/SCAF] program, conducted in cooperation with Germany and Spain, would need a much more powerful engine than that of the Rafale, the French Armament Agency [DGA] had entrusted Safran with the task of conducting the Turenne study in 2015. The challenge was to develop an “innovative turbine concept” at high pressures, with more efficient materials. But it was also a question of maintaining, or even further developing, the manufacturer’s skills.
(...)
(On November 27, before the Defense Committee of the French National Assembly, Mr. Saudo, CEO of Safran indicated: )
when discussing the T-REX program, which aims to develop the Rafale F5 engines. "Today, with the delay of the FCAS/SCAF, it is essential to find the ways and means to launch [the] T-REX program, […] allowing the development of a variant of the M88 engine, with a thrust of 9 tons, as well as to build this bridge between the current engine and that of the FCAS/SCAF", specified the CEO of Safran. A dialogue has been established with the DGA on this point. "This is a short-term issue", he concluded.
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www.opex360.com

L'armée de l'Air et de l'Espace souhaite deux ou trois A400M "Atlas" de plus que prévu avant 2030 - Zone Militaire

Quand le programme d'avion de transport A400 "Atlas" fut lancé, la France s'était engagée à en acquérir cinquante exemplaires auprès d'Airbus. Et, malgré
www.opex360.com www.opex360.com

(...)
(Before the Foreign Affairs Committee of the French Senate) the Chief of Staff of the Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace, General Jérôme Bellanger, explained (24.10.24) (...) It will also be necessary to finance the T-REX engine intended for the Rafale F5, the development of which was not planned by the LPM (Military programming law ) 2024-30. "If we have to make savings elsewhere in the Rafale program, we will do so to ensure that we benefit from this engine".
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Additional information on the statements of the Chief of Staff of the French Air Force during the Foreign Affairs Committee of the French Senate, October 24, 2024

Commission des affaires étrangères, de la défense et des forces armées : compte rendu de la semaine du 21 octobre 2024

www.senat.fr www.senat.fr

Question: (...)
The Minister of the Armed Forces announced the launch of the Rafale F5 standard, which should be accompanied by a combat drone. What do you expect from this new development? It is also necessary to upgrade the Rafale engine to compensate for this additional weight and guarantee better maneuverability. When can the studies and development of the enhanced version of the M88 engine be launched? (...)

Answer: (...)
Concerning fighter aircraft, we have accelerated the MCO (Maintaining operational condition) of the existing Rafale, which requires ordering more parts. In addition, we want to bring forward the delivery of the fifth batch of Rafale in order to obtain a few aircraft by the end of 2027. We therefore intend to maintain the "all Rafale" format with 185 aircraft.
The F5 is not only synonymous with new integrated technologies and a more capable aircraft. It also involves Conformal Fuel Tanks to carry an M88 engine with greater thrust. (...)
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Question: The renovation of the M88 engine represents a cost of 650 million euros, which is not provided for in the LPM (Military programming law), and which may not be covered by Safran. How do you intend to finance it?

Answer: It is still unclear. This was not provided for in the LPM, because we asked Safran for the Rafale F5 to be maneuverable with the ASN4G (4th Generation Air-Ground Nuclear missile). This seems essential to me. Also, if we have to make savings elsewhere in the Rafale program, we will do so to ensure that we benefit from this engine.
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Folks, for unfortunately good reasons, this thread was changed into a NEWS ONLY one quite long ago ...
Perhaps, righting or adding to posted news may be ok, but in the moment, we are starying again into general discussions, and judging by experience, this will give problems again.
So, please back to NEWS ONLY !
 
Jemiba said:
Folks, for unfortunately good reasons, this thread was changed into a NEWS ONLY one quite long ago ...
Perhaps, righting or adding to posted news may be ok, but in the moment, we are starying again into general discussions, and judging by experience, this will give problems again.
So, please back to NEWS ONLY !
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Would you okay a separate Rafale programme & aircraft discussion thread?
 

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