Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

[TomcatViP]

@dan_inbox : and purporting forum co-members isn't?
@Deltafan : Santa didn't came with a scrollback button on your mouse?

 

[Deltafan]

@Deltafan : Santa didn't came with a scrollback button on your mouse?

I can only find what you said, or what H_K said. No link.

Where is (you) "The statement of the Greek gov official was in the English spoken Greek press. It includes M2K upgrade (all available upgrade) ?

H_K said : "There is some confusion on the total cost because there are multiple contracts being signed, including some for unconnected stuff like drone upgrades. All they’ve said is that the Rafales will cost €1.92B and the weapons will cost €400M. Other sources have mentioned €100M for the Mirage upgrade (which may or may not be included in the above numbers) and a total cost of €2.5B."

Then, I repeat :

"infamous Exocet capable M2K EGM/BGM" : why infamous ?

where is "unlimited/non-limited" written ("remember that it has been agreed that this will be a "non-limited"upgrade") ? Where is a link about this ?

And when we'll have the complete, and official, contract between France and Greece about the Rafale (and possibly a part for the Mirage 2000) we'll see who pays what. And then, and only then, we'll can see if there is anything "doubtful", or not ...

 

[dan_inbox]

@dan_inbox : and purporting forum co-members isn't?

Could you try saying this in English? (or French if you prefer)
In case you mean 'supporting', clearly I don't support being impolite and aggressive against a well-known and respected forum member whose contributions are consistently well informed and thoughtful.

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks Dan

Well, let's try to be constructive and let's forget the term "infamous" (even though I don't quite see its use in the context...).

My problem is to have OFFICIAL LINKS. Several times since the announce of the Greece-France Rafale deal I found mistakes and confusions on some links/articles. Maybe the origin of the problem is the translation from greek language.

-Confusions for the replacement of Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM or 2000-5 (?) by the 18 Rafale...

-Confusions between the upgrade for 10 Mirage 2000 EGM to Mirage 2000-5 in the today's Rafale deal with the old 2000-5 deal

-Confusions with the replacement of 2000 EGM/BGM and the upgrade of 10 of them.

In the French media, I never found something about the upgrade of 10 Mirage 2000 EGM to the 2000-5 level. There is only the "replacement" of the Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM by 18 Rafale.

There is some articles, in English, on the upgrade of 10 Mirage 2000 EGM to the 2000-5 level in the Rafale deal subject (even if a great part of these articles speaks only of the "replacement" of the Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM by 18 Rafale). But, as I understand, some refer to the old 2000-5 deal, not to the new Rafale deal. And I understand that later articles in English made a confusion between the two deals.

Maybe I am wrong. But to be sure, I need links on official statements (that I did not find) to assess the credibility of the information, not intermediate articles/opinions...

But no credible link (from my point of view) is now arrived to me. That's why I say that it is better to wait for the official contract of the Greece-France Rafale deal to judge what is inside with, or not, a 2000 part.

After we get this we can restart on what is "doubtful" or not, on "billions", and on "who pays what"...


Edit :

After two postponements, the French media announced that the signing would take place in the first half of January.

 

[Antonio]

This thread is already going into a personal confrontation, please try to post objective information or go back into a constructive conversation. Otherwise it will be closed

 

[Deltafan]

Contradictory would mean that something has been asserted and then reverted on the opposite of what it was. We are not here.
Do not lie.

Also, it's the international press that you have to read, not only the French one that fails regularly to be accurate on that matter on, let's say, romantic grounds...
Read also the Greek reports obviously (they have media in English like most countries and their MoD publish also in that language at the intention of the international audience).

Also this endless I want to be right is suffocating to say the least. There isn't any editorial line here that we should obey.

I use the word "contradictory" because, for example, some sources said that, for the Rafale deal, there will be an upgrade of 10 Mirage 2000 EGM to 2000-5 level and other sources said that the Rafale will replace all the Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM (or, at least, the EGM).

I read international press, even the Greek or other reports, that I try to translate with Google trad. In the Greek MoD press release (among others official links) I never found mention of the upgrade of 10 Mirage 2000 EGM/BGM to the 2000-5 level for the Rafale deal. That's why I ask to other forumers (insofar as, according to their statements, some SPF forumers had seen links in this direction) where were their sources/links for this information. Because, despite all my research, I did not find any official link confirming this information. But, for the moment, no one has given me such a link/source.

The question is not "I want to be right", but (to try) to give good informations to the SPF forumers who are interested in the subject. And, AFAIK, it's the only "editorial line" on SPF.

 

[TomcatViP]

Dassault just released 2021's yearly production output for Rafale with a low 13 units delivered (against 24 in 2019) and zero order logged despite all the talks.

Gros nuages pour Dassault Aviation

Avec 13 avions de combat Rafale Export et 34 jets d'affaires Falcon livrés en 2020, Dassault Aviation verra son chiffre d'affaires redescendre vers les 5 Md€. La crise est bien passée par là. Mais, pas seulement.

www.air-cosmos.com

 

[helmutkohl]

Greek parliament to vote this week on Rafale jets purchase

Greek lawmakers will vote this week on a bill opening the way for the purchase of 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets from France for a total of 2.5 billion euros ($3.04 billion).

www.reuters.com

I guess given the current rise in hostility in the eastern Med.. it might get more easily green lighted

Greek lawmakers will vote this week on a bill opening the way for the purchase of 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets from France for a total of 2.5 billion euros ($3.04 billion).

The agreement, expected to be signed by both countries’ ministers in Athens this month, is part of Greece’s plan to boost its defence capacity during an ongoing dispute with neighbouring Turkey on energy resources in the Mediterranean.

For the purchase and maintenance of six new and 12 used Rafale jets, Greece will spend 1.5 billion euros this year, about 400 million euros annually in 2022-23, 67 million euros in 2024 and 34 million euros in 2025.


The debate in parliamentary committees will start on Tuesday with a vote planned by the end of the week.

After a decade-long financial crisis that sapped almost a quarter of its national output, Greece was hoping for strong growth in 2020, but the coronavirus outbreak dashed its hopes. Greece projects 4.8 growth this year after an economic contraction of about 10% in 2020.

 

[TomcatViP]

The parallel is stunning b/w a parliament ratifying an acquisition and one that hasn't voiced a single opinion for the divestment...

 

[TomcatViP]

Greek parliament approves purchase of Rafale fighters from France

Greek lawmakers approved the purchase of 18 Dassault-made Rafale jets from France for 2.5 billion euros ($3.04 billion) on Thursday, in a deal due to be signed by the Greek and French defence ministers later this month.

www.reuters.com

All of Greece’s political parties, with the exception of the Communist party and Gianis Varoufakis’ Mera25, voted for the bill which was approved by a Greek parliamentary committee late Tuesday under a fast track procedure.

The Standing Committee on National Defense and Foreign Affairs discussed three contracts under the bill, including six new and twelve used Rafale jets, at a cost of €1.5 billion this year.

Rafale Jet Purchase Approved by Greek Parliament

The Greek Parliament overwhelmingly approved on Thursday the purchase of 18 French-made Rafale fighter jets.

greece.greekreporter.com

Notice that migrants question was as predicted put on the table

 

[TomcatViP]

... and brace for another "used" Rafale deal with an offer made to Croatia that doesn't even include new built airframe.

 

[TomcatViP]

Dusting off an old recipe, French Gov offers Make in India Rafale for next multirole fighter contract:

French sources in the know of developments said Diplomatic Advisor to the French President, Emmanuel Bonne, who is on a visit to India, will make a pitch of the French government’s offer to make the Rafale fighters in India — if the numbers in play are closer to [at least] 100.

Dassault Aviation eyes Made-in-India Rafale, looks to raise investment in country

French firm Dassault is looking to manufacture Rafale jets in India, depending on the order size. But India will take a call after the delivery of the first 36 jets.

theprint.in

 

[TomcatViP]

And some more details as provided by Scramble.nl:

The most significant is that France proposes a complete shift of the Airbus AS565MBe Panther medium helicopter assembly line along with a Dassault Rafale's 70 percent assembly line to India with full transfer of technology.

Major military aviation industry proposal from France to India

Major military aviation industry proposal from France to India During the visit of by President Macron's Diplomatic Advisor Emmanuel Bonne during the first week of January, France ...

www.scramble.nl

Interestingly, the machining, metal processing division of Airbus Helicopter (South of France) was just ravaged by a fire that destroyed much of the facility.

 

[TomcatViP]

Also, something that might push India back into Dassault arms:

EXCLUSIVE India's friction with US rises over planned purchase of Russian S-400 defence systems

The United States has told India it is unlikely to get a waiver on its planned acquisition of Russian S-400 air defence systems, raising the risk of sanctions similar to those imposed on Turkey for buying that equipment, people aware of the matter said.

www.reuters.com

 

[stealthflanker]

So, yeah. This is a Letter of Intent between ours and French MOD. about French Arms deal, involving ships, missiles and the Rafale.

The document is in Indonesian. but i believe it's clear enough for you guys to put into online translator XD.

Otherwise the important part are in blue rectangle. Which is something like :


"To provide mutual support for defense related equipments such as Dassault Rafale, Scorpene Class Submarine from Naval Group, missiles of French MBDA and Lafayette Frigate. The support would include for possibility of Co-development, servicing, refurbishment as well as upgrades of capability, within the perspective of Indonesian Ministry of Defense Acquisition program"

hopefully there is no lost in translation or sort of it :x.

I wonder how French Arms Acquisition works. in comparison for US... we sent a request or LOR (Letter of Request) then US State dept would scrutinize the request, then assign a DSCA which basically stated that we can buy x amount of equipment with deal of xxxx USD and informations like whether the scheme is FMS (Foreign Military Sale) or others. Following that there would be LOA or Letter of Acceptance, at this point the arms would be produced.. and our country is required to deposit initial payment to a special account made by the US State Dept.

For Russian arms.. it's handled by Rosoboroneksport which later appoint a local representative within the country which would handle the deal.

 

[helmutkohl]

^ on a related note.. is the Indonesian purchase of ex Austrian Eurofighters a done deal?

 

[Deltafan]

So, yeah. This is a Letter of Intent between ours and French MOD. about French Arms deal, involving ships, missiles and the Rafale.

The document is in Indonesian. but i believe it's clear enough for you guys to put into online translator XD.

Otherwise the important part are in blue rectangle. Which is something like :

"To provide mutual support for defense related equipments such as Dassault Rafale, Scorpene Class Submarine from Naval Group, missiles of French MBDA and Lafayette Frigate. The support would include for possibility of Co-development, servicing, refurbishment as well as upgrades of capability, within the perspective of Indonesian Ministry of Defense Acquisition program"

Thanks a lot stealthflanker

What is the source : Indonesian Press or Government ?

 

[stealthflanker]

So, yeah. This is a Letter of Intent between ours and French MOD. about French Arms deal, involving ships, missiles and the Rafale.

The document is in Indonesian. but i believe it's clear enough for you guys to put into online translator XD.

Otherwise the important part are in blue rectangle. Which is something like :

"To provide mutual support for defense related equipments such as Dassault Rafale, Scorpene Class Submarine from Naval Group, missiles of French MBDA and Lafayette Frigate. The support would include for possibility of Co-development, servicing, refurbishment as well as upgrades of capability, within the perspective of Indonesian Ministry of Defense Acquisition program"

Thanks a lot stealthflanker

What is the source : Indonesian Press or Government ?

It's a government document.

 

[TomcatViP]

More news in the French press on a potential Rafale deal in India (diverging somewhat to what is reported in India - see above) :

[L]'Elysée mène actuellement en Inde une offensive diplomatique sans précédent pour décrocher un « package deal » de 5 milliards d’euros. Un package qui porterait sur la commande de 36 Rafale supplémentaires, de 6 avions ravitailleurs, et de plus d’une centaine d’hélicoptères Panther.
---------------------------

[T] he Elysee Palace is currently leading an unprecedented diplomatic offensive in India to secure a "package deal" of 5 billion euro that would cover the order of 36 additional Rafale, 6 A330MRTT tanker planes and more than a hundred Panther helicopters.

Rafale, Panther, MRTT : Les dessous du futur méga contrat indien

Alors que la ministre des Armées, Florence Parly, et le Pdg de Dassault Aviation sont attendus le 25 janvier à Athènes pour la signature définitive du contrat d’acquisition des 18 Rafale destinés aux forces aériennes grecques, l'Elysée mène actuellement en Inde une offensive diplomatique sans...

air-cosmos.dev

 

[Deltafan]

Well, it's great that school are [not] closed in France because [otherwise] kids would have [an even] harder time understanding arithmetics with Macron's aircraft sales as a reference...
One day 6x=1.5 and another 36 of the same X makes 3 (counted in billion dollars).



Edited [abc] to reflect present situation

If "6x" is for Greece, it's the first Rafale contract for Greece.

As said above, it would be the second one for India and what is already installed/bought in/by India will not require redundancy.

And the terms of the contract may be different from one country to another.

In any case, no one signs a contract if they do not find it interesting (and I don't think that "Macron" is imposing a price on private company Dassault for export sales ...).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Removed some posts from topic. Please behave more civilly or face consequences. If you object to posts its always better to report it than indulge in vigilante action as the vigilantes can be as disruptive as the offenders.

 

[Archibald]

Indeed there is no point in discussing the North American A-5 here... since it is the Rafale thread.

 

[TomcatViP]

The Armée de l'Air has brought four Rafale fighters, two Airbus A400M military transport aircraft and an Airbus A330MRTT Phénix tanker transport aircraft to the exercise. The Indian Air Force participates with Rafale, Mirage 2000, Su-30MKI-30, Il-78MKI tanker, A-50EhI AWACS and ERJ145SM AEW&C aircraft.

French Rafales participating in Exercise Desert Knight 21

French Rafales participating in Exercise Desert Knight 21 India and France will carry out a five-day air exercise near Jodhpur AFS (state of Rajasthan) starting Wednesday 20 Januar...

www.scramble.nl

 

[Bhurki]

Rafales in the 'bundle' deal aforementioned in the thread are being supposed to be of F4 standard.

Does someone know about the tentative timelines for first flight, IOC and the developmental progress on F4 variant (funds released yet)?

 

[Deltafan]

Rafales in the 'bundle' deal aforementioned in the thread are being supposed to be of F4 standard.

Does someone know about the tentative timelines for first flight, IOC and the developmental progress on F4 variant (funds released yet)?

1.9 billion € foreseen to develop the F4 standard program. Validation of the standard is foreseen for 2024. The first 30 for France are foreseen to be ordered in 2023 and to be delivered from 2027.

Among other articles (sorry, in French)

Le standard « F4 » du Rafale est lancé - Press kits de Dassault Aviation (dassault-aviation.com)

Nouveau Rafale F4 :10 chiffres pour tout savoir de l’avion de combat (sudouest.fr)

 

[TomcatViP]

Slightly increased flow rate for the new refuel pod embarked on French Navy Rafale (NaraNG - from 750 to 1000L/min):

Rafale Marine : PCO prononcée pour la nacelle de ravitaillement de nouvelle génération | Mer et Marine

Le 18 janvier, l’état-major de la marine a prononcé la première capacité opérationnelle (PCO) de la nacelle de ravitaillement de nouvelle génération...

www.meretmarine.com

 

[Jemiba]

@ TomcatViP
The snippet of that article, that can be accessed without registration, don't give the
the mentioned details,making it unsuitable as a proof for those claims.
So the post was edited, the tone was borderline at best anyway, and not for the first time
in this thread.
PLease consider this a warning.

 

[TomcatViP]

@ TomcatViP
The snippet of that article, that can be accessed without registration, don't give the
the mentioned details,making it unsuitable as a proof for those claims.
So the post was edited, the tone was borderline at best anyway, and not for the first time
in this thread.
PLease consider this a warning.

This is not an edit @Jemiba : my post simply underlined and translated the part of that news story that hadn't been yet discussed.

Removing it simply condemn other members that don't speak french to be deprived of that information.

Moreover you are encouraging the bullying posture of those individuals. Frankly, It doesn't help

 

[Jemiba]

I edited/removed the interpretation, that wasn't replicable without knowledge of the full article.
So, not only non-French speaking members are "deprived of that information", and the small part
accessible (18 % of the full article) can hardly be the basis for your claims.
But you're right, such a snippet isn't suitable for proving anything, and as long, as the full wording
isn't accessible to every participant in this discussion, that article can hardly be the basis for any kind
of claim, either way. Post removed completely.
But as the thread has gone into a quite different direction from the original title, seriously lapped
into politics, and provoked obviously unstoppable discussions, maybe it's better to turn it into a
"NEWS ONLY" thread, at least for a while, until emotions have calmed down a bit !

 

[H_K]

I would like to apologize to @TomcatViP, I was able to pull the article using Google Translate. It says:

« Finally, the IAF could also acquire a fleet of 6 Airbus A330 MRTTs to increase its refueling and projection capacities in the region. Discussions have also progressed a lot on the subject and India is studying in particular France's proposals which would consist of renting to it, or ceding to it 6 copies currently in service with the Air Force and Space as soon as they cross the age of five. New Phénix would then be ordered from Airbus for the needs of the French defense. »

Google Translate

Although I remain skeptical of the accuracy of this statement as this is not exactly what the Hindustan Times reported, it may be true. Rather than jump to conclusions I think it best to wait for more details to come out.

 

[Deltafan]

From French Minister of Defense, Florence Parly, on Twitter :

Florence Parly sur Twitter : "Je serai lundi prochain 25 janvier à Athènes pour la signature du contrat de vente de 18 Rafale à la Grèce. Pour la première fois, notre avion de combat est vendu à un pays européen. #EuropeDéfense #Fildéfense" / Twitter

I will be next Monday January 25 in Athens for the signing of the sales contract for 18 Rafale to Greece. For the first time, our fighter plane is sold to an European country.

 

[galgot]

Signed :

La Grèce a signé un contrat pour l’achat de 18 Rafale

La décision de négocier a été prise par le premier ministre grec, en réaction aux explorations gazières de la Turquie et à ses démonstrations de force dans des zones maritimes qu’elle dispute à Athènes et Nicosie.

www.lemonde.fr

 

[TomcatViP]

In english:

Greece and France ink $3 billion contract for Rafale fighter jets

Six of the second-hand aircraft will be delivered at a rate of one a month starting this July, with the six new aircraft delivered in spring 2022 and the last six used aircraft delivered in early 2023.

www.defensenews.com

 

[helmutkohl]

IT'S OFFICIAL: Greece Signs Deal To Acquire 18 Rafale Fighter Jets From France

At 15:30 local time in Athens, the deal for Greece to acquire 18 French-made Rafale fighter jets was signed.It was announced only days ago that French Defense

greekcitytimes.com

welcome to Rafale club, Hellas

 

[Deltafan]

Three more

3 more Rafale jets land in India after non-stop flight from France | Hindustan Times

 

[Deltafan]

New order of 12 more Rafale for France to replace the 12 used sold to Greece.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1355076321156673540

View: https://twitter.com/VincentLamigeon/status/1355076321156673540?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1355076321156673540%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.air-defense.net%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FVincentLamigeon%2Fstatus%2F1355076321156673540

French Minister of Defense Florence Parly announced this morning on the Dassault d´Argonay site the order for 12 Rafale for the French Air and Space Force, replacing the 12 aircraft sold to Greece. Delivery 2025 (Interview French weekly Les Echos)

 

[TomcatViP]

Right from the horse mouth (sad to see my earlier post deleted when it had exactly this information) :

Le prix d’un Rafale "tout équipé, c’est une centaine de millions d’euros", selon le PDG de Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier.
—---------------------------
The price for a Rafale "with all its equipments" is something like an hundred millions of euro said Dassault Aviation CEO Éric Trappier

La France commande 12 Rafale à Dassault aviation

La France commande douze avions de combat Rafale pour son armée de l’Air à Dassault Aviation afin de remplacer les douze appareils vendus d’occasion lundi à la Grèce, a annoncé hier la ministre des Armées Florence...

www.ladepeche.fr

 

[helmutkohl]

first time. 3 IAF Rafales flying over AERO INDIA 2021
pic from Live Fast

 

[TomcatViP]

French Air Force Participate In Skyros 2021 Exercise In Greece

Four Rafale fighter jets of the French Air Force have been at the Tanagra air base since yesterday, participating in the "Skyros 2021" exercise with Greece.

greekcitytimes.com

 

[TomcatViP]

As part of European defence major Thales’ Offsets commitments under the Rafale India contract Indian Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) has manufactured T/R (transmit/receive) modules for the RBE2 radar on the Dassault Aviation Rafale and delivered them to Thales.

Thales-BEL Collaboration Delivers Crucial Component For Rafale RBE2 Radar

As part of European defence major Thales’ Offsets commitments under the Rafale India contract Indian Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) has manufactured T/R (transmit/receive) modules for the RB

bharatshakti.in