Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

Greece to pay 2.3 bln euros for 18 French Rafale fighter jets | News | ekathimerini.com

Greece will pay a total of 2.3 billion euros ($2.8 billion) under a deal it is due to sign soon with France for the purchase of 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets, its government spokesman said on Thursday.
Greece will buy six newly-built and 12 second-hand Rafale jets for 1.92 billion euros and pay another 400 million for their equipment, Stelios Petsas told a televised briefing.
The first six used jets will be delivered around June and the rest by the middle of 2023, Petsas added. [Reuters]
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Reuters is incorrect. The deal involves the deep upggrade of their M2K. The cost being included in the grand total above.
 
TomcatViP said:
Reuters is incorrect. The deal involves the deep upggrade of their M2K. The cost being included in the grand total above.
Click to expand...
Why upgrade those when they are getting these as well seemingly F-35s. Do they need that many airframes.
 
@Flyaway : Mainly for the Exocet missile. Also M2K is far less expensive than a Rafale to maintain with a higher reliability. For them they have also the cost of manpower on their side (the more they do with Greek maintainers, on Greek ground the less it will cost to them). So the Mirage won't go before long being a solid non-US component of their defense.
See it as their Phrench Phantoms.

Edit:
There is also in-line with the probable compatibility with UAE M2K9s (remember that it has been agreed that this will be a "non-limited"upgrade) which whom Greece just signed a defense pact (read above). Hence, in the short term, this open the possibility for cross fleet bridging with specifically developed armament from UAE as well as from Israel, significantly widening user fleet for them, increasing their future competitive stance (roughly 100 airframe).
 
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TomcatViP said:
Reuters is incorrect. The deal involves the deep upggrade of their M2K. The cost being included in the grand total above.
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Reuters cannot be incorrect, as it just reports what the spokesman of the Greek government said. Only this spokesman can be incorrect, if he is incorrect...
 
Sadly, no. The statement of the Greek gov official was in the English spoken Greek press. It includes M2K upgrade (all available upgrade) and financement modalities (as well as Greek debt slight increase).
 
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@TomcatViP The Greek statement doesn’t specify whether the Mirage upgrade is included or not.

There is some confusion on the total cost because there are multiple contracts being signed, including some for unconnected stuff like drone upgrades. All they’ve said is that the Rafales will cost €1.92B and the weapons will cost €400M. Other sources have mentioned €100M for the Mirage upgrade (which may or may not be included in the above numbers) and a total cost of €2.5B.

Anyway whether the total is €2.3B or $2.5B isn’t the main point... this is a big win for “Team France” and the overall economic value over 3 decades will be much larger.
 
@H_K : 2.5 including M2K it is. But the parting is only speculation. I remind you that India paid billions their Mirage upgrade...

No, it's not a big win for France. It's a big win for some French. None of them being from the future generations that will have to finance a 20 years old fighter at times that promise to be more demanding in term of public defense... or French Pilots that waited long the modernisation of their airframe just to be cut of 1 entire squadron of them.

The precedent is also worrying for long term defense planning (how many should we order taking into account le fait du prince*? How many pilots should we train, what ressources shall we field, what cost can we plan...) and what can be foreseen in term complexification for the defense industry (not all defense companies in France are as joyfully dysfunctional as is presently Dassault).

Last but not least, it raises the question of how legal can be such disvestment of national defense assets by a succedding majority without any scrutinizing.

IMOHO it points (this weird restricted flee market that I call Macron's great aicraft bazaar) to how frail and dysfunctional democracy à la French has become. And that should be a point of concerns for their allies.
 
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TomcatViP said:
Sadly, no. The statement of the Greek gov official was in the English spoken Greek press. It includes M2K upgrade (all available upgrade) and financement modalities (as well as Greek debt slight increase).
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Is there a more recent source than that of the Greek government spokesperson since December 17, 2020 from Reuters ? If yes, is there a link ?
 
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TomcatViP said:
@H_K : 2.5 including M2K it is. But the parting is only speculation. I remind you that India paid billions their Mirage upgrade...

No, it's not a big win for France. It's a big win for some French. None of them being from the future generations that will have to finance a 20 years old fighter at times that promise to be more demanding in term of public defense... or French Pilots that waited long the modernisation of their airframe just to be cut of 1 entire squadron of them.

The precedent is also worrying for long term defense planning (how many should we order taking into account le fait du prince*? How many pilots should we train, what ressources shall we field, what cost can we plan...) and what can be foreseen in term complexification for the defense industry (not all defense companies in France are as joyfully dysfunctional as is presently Dassault).

Last but not least, it raises the question of how legal can be such disvestment of national defense assets by a succedding majority without any scrutinizing.

IMOHO it points (this weird restricted flee market that I call Macron's great aicraft bazaar) to how frail and dysfunctional democracy à la French has become. And that should be a point of concerns for their allies.
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For my own again, it's not a deal for a money "big win", but a (good or bad) political and military deal between two allies.

And as long as there is a replacement in France of the 12 used planes by 12 new ones, it is positive for ("joyfully dysfunctional" ?) Dassault and the French Air Force (and its pilots). For the moment, nothing is signed for the buy of the 12 (+ 6 new) used Rafale for Greece. An order for the 12 new for France can only be made after the official signature between France and Greece for the 12 + 6, and this signature France-Greece is foreseen for the next week. If, later, France doesn't order the 12 new, there will be a problem for the French Air Force, but otherwise...

Otherwise again, is this forum the place to judge the "dysfunctional democracy" of France ? I have too a lot of opinions on politic in France and, in my opinion, on more "dysfunctional democracies" than France (and more particularly in the current period), but AFAIK, this is not the place... I would be interested in the opinion of the moderators on this subject.
 
www.navalnews.com

France successfully test fires updated ASMPA nuclear missile - Naval News

On December 9 2020, the French Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) along with MBDA and Dassault successfully carried out the first test launch of the updated ASMPA air-launched nuclear cruise missile (missile Air-Sol Moyenne Portée Amélioré). The missile is in service with the French Navy's...
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com
 
"...but AFAIK, this is not the place..."

Fully agree, the discussion is running a bit OT, and getting into the field of politics, what
it shouldn't according to our forum rules.
Mentioning the details of that deal is ok, I think, so that everyone reading it, can make up
his mind. Discussing the politics is ok, too, just not publicly here, but via PM, mail, or whatever.
 
With news that Boeing has done ski jump tests with the Shornet and is offering it to India..
has the Rafale done ski jump tests of its own?

logistically speaking, should India acquire new aircraft for its carriers.. it should be either the Rafale or more MiG-29Ks
since they already operate the type.
I also thought they placed a ban on foreign systems or something this year
 
helmutkohl said:
With news that Boeing has done ski jump tests with the Shornet and is offering it to India..
has the Rafale done ski jump tests of its own?
Click to expand...
No, rafale hasn't yet been tested for being viable to launch off a ski jump.

helmutkohl said:
logistically speaking, should India acquire new aircraft for its carriers.. it should be either the Rafale or more MiG-29Ks
since they already operate the type.
I also thought they placed a ban on foreign systems or something this year
Click to expand...

The larger issue is the fact that rafale doesn't fit on the lifts. Even though dassault has assured that it has a method of removing the wingtips every time the jet uses the lift(not sure how that would reduce its wingspan in any significant way), I'm not sure if such a solution would inspire any confidence in the indian navy.

Even the F18E/F will fit only by tilting it on its longitudnal axis. (stated by boeing)

Mig 29k folded wingspan - 26 ft
F-18E/F folded wingspan - 32 ft
Rafale fixed wingspan - 36 ft
images (33).jpeg images (22).jpeg

Space on the lifts is quite limited, and cannot be augmented without protracted and costly modifications to the ship's internal structure itself.
 
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^ thanks for the detailed answer
are the lifts on the two carriers going to be the same? The Gorshkov (sorry forgot the indian name) and the new carrier.
 
helmutkohl said:
^ thanks for the detailed answer
are the lifts on the two carriers going to be the same? The Gorshkov (sorry forgot the indian name) and the new carrier.
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There's no confirmed details about the size of lifts on the newer carrier (unofficial sources state it to be the same size) , but even if they are large enough to operate the likes of rhino and rafale, i don't think india would consider it prudent to have 2 separate airwings for 2 ships.

After all, these ships are supposed to slot into each others deployment routines and have a decent amount of interoperability, sharing the airwing being principle.
 
Bhurki said:
helmutkohl said:
With news that Boeing has done ski jump tests with the Shornet and is offering it to India..
has the Rafale done ski jump tests of its own?
Click to expand...
No, rafale hasn't yet been tested for being viable to launch off a ski jump.

helmutkohl said:
logistically speaking, should India acquire new aircraft for its carriers.. it should be either the Rafale or more MiG-29Ks
since they already operate the type.
I also thought they placed a ban on foreign systems or something this year
Click to expand...

The larger issue is the fact that rafale doesn't fit on the lifts. Even though dassault has assured that it has a method of removing the wingtips every time the jet uses the lift(not sure how that would reduce its wingspan in any significant way), I'm not sure if such a solution would inspire any confidence in the indian navy.

Even the F18E/F will fit only by tilting it on its longitudnal axis. (stated by boeing)

Mig 29k folded wingspan - 26 ft
F-18E/F folded wingspan - 32 ft
Rafale fixed wingspan - 36 ft
Click to expand...

thanks for the wingspan info
I wonder if the F-35C could squeeze in by angling it like the hornet.. its 29.8
 
helmutkohl said:
Bhurki said:
helmutkohl said:
With news that Boeing has done ski jump tests with the Shornet and is offering it to India..
has the Rafale done ski jump tests of its own?
Click to expand...
No, rafale hasn't yet been tested for being viable to launch off a ski jump.

helmutkohl said:
logistically speaking, should India acquire new aircraft for its carriers.. it should be either the Rafale or more MiG-29Ks
since they already operate the type.
I also thought they placed a ban on foreign systems or something this year
Click to expand...

The larger issue is the fact that rafale doesn't fit on the lifts. Even though dassault has assured that it has a method of removing the wingtips every time the jet uses the lift(not sure how that would reduce its wingspan in any significant way), I'm not sure if such a solution would inspire any confidence in the indian navy.

Even the F18E/F will fit only by tilting it on its longitudnal axis. (stated by boeing)

Mig 29k folded wingspan - 26 ft
F-18E/F folded wingspan - 32 ft
Rafale fixed wingspan - 36 ft
Click to expand...

thanks for the wingspan info
I wonder if the F-35C could squeeze in by angling it like the hornet.. its 29.8
Click to expand...
Won't work.
F-35C strictly requires the catapult.

A notional lower limit value of T/W required at take off was cited as 0.85 (stobar limitation) by a retired pilot who has flown the Mig-29k off the Kiev class. (about 15% more weight than thrust, 20 ton limit for mig 29k with a thrust of 17.5 tons)

So, a F35c with a thrust of 19 tons will be constricted to a takeoff weight of no more than 22 tons, and considering it weighs nearly 16 tons empty, the weight fraction remaining for fuel and payload would not be meaningful.

Also, even if it might fit physically by 'angling', there probably isn't enough room for diplomatic or geostrategic 'angling' for US to sell them to India.
 
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Possible (and plausible) Rafale sale to UAE (In Fr) :
Ces sources précisent seulement que ce contrat, s'il est signé, le sera avant l'élection présidentielle de 2022
----------------------
Sources only tell us that the contract could be signed before the next [French] presidential election in 2022
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www.bfmtv.com

La France s'apprêterait à signer un contrat de Rafale avec les Emirats arabes unis

Après la Grèce et l'Indonésie, les Emirats arabes unis seraient en discussion avec la France pour s'équiper de Rafale. Ce contrat pourrait être signé d'ici 2022.
www.bfmtv.com www.bfmtv.com

Notice that Greece and the UAE are engaged in a formal defense pact and share a fleet of M2K (soon to be modernized). With the UAE industry looking for option for their own armament industry (read comments above), the delivery of technology to qualify UAE hardware onto Greek Rafale could be the incentive for them to request some Rafale.
Another option could be the lift of ban to re-sale their M2K9 to Greece. In that case the UAE would trade their Mirage for some new Rafale.

Given that, according to Dassault snail like production numbers, no delivery should certainly be expected before 2024/25 and that buying UAE's Mirage in the 2030's wouldn't make much sense for Greeks, we might see another late furloughing of AdlAE's Rafale before President Macron leaves office...
 
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TomcatViP said:
Possible (and plausible) Rafale sale to UAE (In Fr) :
Ces sources précisent seulement que ce contrat, s'il est signé, le sera avant l'élection présidentielle de 2022
----------------------
Sources only tell us that the contract could be signed before the next [French] presidential election in 2022
Click to expand...
www.bfmtv.com

La France s'apprêterait à signer un contrat de Rafale avec les Emirats arabes unis

Après la Grèce et l'Indonésie, les Emirats arabes unis seraient en discussion avec la France pour s'équiper de Rafale. Ce contrat pourrait être signé d'ici 2022.
www.bfmtv.com www.bfmtv.com

Notice that Greece and the UAE are engaged in a formal defense pact and share a fleet of M2K (soon to be modernized). With the UAE industry looking for option for their own armament industry (read comments above), the delivery of technology to qualify UAE hardware onto Greek Rafale could be the incentive for them to request some Rafale.
Another option could be the lift of ban to re-sale their M2K9 to Greece. In that case the UAE would trade their Mirage for some new Rafale.

Given that, according to Dassault snail like production numbers, no delivery should certainly be expected before 2024/25 and that buying UAE's Mirage in the 2030's wouldn't make much sense for Greeks, we might see another late furloughing of AdlAE's Rafale before President Macron leaves office...
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Nothing is made with UAE (the purchase of Rafale by UAE is dicussed since 2008 with many ups and downs) and 2022 is far away.

For Rafale production, the only problem was to maintain the production line, because of the gap of deliveries between 2024 and 2027 (problem already attenuated with the purchase of 6 new planes by Greece and the French order normally to come to replace the 12 used Rafales planned for Greece). But if export sales were to become significant, there will be no more gap and Dassault could increase production rates and not stay with the 11 Rafale per year rate.
 
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Not too long ago the UAE was desperately trying to dump their 2000-9s to anybody interested... what motivated this change of mind ?
 
We are trying to get an understanding of the situation and for that we make use of every clues. So, it's not a tipsy "as usual" but a matter of facts that India and the UAE had to pay around one billion for the upgrade of their fleet.
 
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As it's a matter of fact that the amount of a contract also depends on the work requested by customers and that a contract is signed by two parties. And if one of the two parties does not agree, it does not sign...
 
If you're suggesting upgrade would not be made, someone should inform Greek MoD. He is in all appearances counting for an unlimited of it.
 
TomcatViP said:
If you're suggesting upgrade would not be made, someone should inform Greek MoD. He is in all appearances counting for an unlimited of it.
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I can only said that the last year, there was a contract of 260 million euro between France (Dassault, Thales and Safran) and Greece to upgrade 24 Mirage 2000-5 over seven years (upgrade and sustainment of these Mirage 2000-5’s electronics and of their engines).

Greek Ministry of Defense Contracts to Upgrade Mirage 2000-5 Fleet - MilitaryLeak

For the rest...

Otherwise, we are on the topic of the Rafale.
 
Yes, but this one (that should be linked in the M2K thread already) is the limited one that's mostly focused on obsolescence.
The M2K-5 didn't get the chance to get ASW capabilities, forcing them to rely on their older M2KEGM/BGM for Exocet strikes with a disparate fleet.

What we are discussing now is the unmentioned amount that will open unlimited upgrades, such as the one valued in Billions in India and the UAE.

Seems you've read only what you wanted... As usual ;)
 
TomcatViP said:
Yes, but this one (that should be linked in the M2K thread already) is the limited one that's mostly focused on obsolescence.
The M2K-5 didn't get the chance to get ASW capabilities, forcing them to rely on their older M2KEGM/BGM for Exocet strikes with a disparate fleet.

What we are discussing now is the unmentioned amount that will open unlimited upgrades, such as the one valued in Billions in India and the UAE.

Seems you've read only what you wanted... As usual ;)
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And where is the link where is mentioned this "unmentioned (?) amount that will open unlimited (?) upgrades, such as the valued in Billions (?) in India and the UAE".

Otherwise, about "disparate" fleets, there is not only Greece in the world, and not only with Mirage 2000...

And yes, "as usual", I prefer proven facts that not proven facts to discuss.

Well, for the moment, we have :

-260 millions euros for the upgrade of 24 Mirage 2000-5 in Greece (see link above)

-929 millions dollars for the upgrade of around 60 Mirage 2000-9 in UAE (see link above)

-1.4 billions euros for the upgrade of 49 Mirage 2000H/TH for India, the first in France and the 48 others in India by HAL (according to Wikipedia in French)

And, of course, the upgrades are not necessarily the same in these three lands...

Today in France, one dollar quotes 0.81 euro.

And we are always on the Rafale's topic...
 
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Folks,

I respectfully declare you, Secretprojects.co.uk official Statler and Waldorf.

220px-Statler_and_Waldorf.jpg


Arguing about Mirage and Rafale costs a December 31 ? really ?
 
Since my last post was removed, let's remind all that the 260million upgrade cited above only involved obsolescence on the M2K5, not their M2K EGM/BGM and not including ASW capabilities or Exocet carrying.
The UAE's M2K9 upgrade, ones already at a more advanced standard than Greek M2K5, will push modernization forward and can't in any way be compared to what's in the 2018 contract for Greek Mirage.
Today, the Rafale deal includes modernisation of the infamous Exocet capable M2K EGM/BGM and their remaining fleet of M2K5 with an unlimited access to available upgrade.

Given that India paid more that 1 billion for their M2KI upgrade (already at a more advanced stage than the basic M2K5) and UAE as much, it is doubtful that the amount of the Greek upgrade (Greece owns in effect 19 EGM/BGM and 24 M2K5) could have fitted in the Rafale publicly disclosed contract, raising the question of Who will pay for that...

Simple and indisputable.
 
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TomcatViP said:
Since my last post was removed, let's remind all that the 260million upgrade cited above only involved obsolescence on the M2K5, not their M2K EGM/BGM and not including ASW capabilities or Exocet carrying.
The UAE's M2K9 upgrade, ones already at a more advanced standard than Greek M2K5, will push modernization forward and can't in any way be compared to what's in the 2018 contract for Greek Mirage.
Today, the Rafale deal includes modernisation of the infamous Exocet capable M2K EGM/BGM and their remaining fleet of M2K5 with an unlimited access to available upgrade.

Given that India paid more that 1 billion for their M2KI upgrade (already at a more advanced stage than the basic M2K5) and UAE as much, it is doubtful that the amount of the Greek upgrade (Greece owns in effect 19 EGM/BGM and 24 M2K5) could have fitted in the Rafale publicly disclosed contract, raising the question of Who will pay for that...

Simple and indisputable.
Click to expand...
Not seen this previous post.

As said before : of course, the upgrades are not necessarily the same in these three lands...
At this point nothing is new... And everybody can find on the net what is made for what for the contracts of Greece (260 millions €), UAE (929 millions $) and India (1.4 billion €).

"infamous Exocet capable M2K EGM/BGM" : why infamous ?

where is "unlimited" written ? Where is a link about this ?

And when we'll have the complete contract between France and Greece about the Rafale (and possibly the part for the Mirage 2000) we'll see who pays what.
And then, and only then, we'll can see if there is anything "doubtful", or not ...
 
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If you have nothing to say and doesn't know what we are talking about, maybe you should consider that this might not worth a post...
 
TomcatViP said:
If you have nothing to say and doesn't know what we are talking about
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Hmm. Wasn't 2021 supposed to start off better than 2020?
Congrats on such positive contributions to the forum's atmosphere. That really what SPF needs...
 
TomcatViP said:
If you have nothing to say and doesn't know what we are talking about, maybe you should consider that this might not worth a post...
Click to expand...
And the readers of SPF are still waiting for the answers (and the sources/links) to the previous post for "infamous", "unlimited" and Mirage 2000 part for France-Greece Rafale contract :)
 
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