Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

You are incorrigible picking any number that fits. .. When has 12 Rafale been sold 70M€ a pop? Never. And let's pray Qataris as other gov never heard about those official nbr (36 Rafale bought by Qatar were for roughly 7B$).

The F4 upgrade contract alone worth 2.3B$ and from my mem doesn't involves any new built airframe. 28 airframe are to be impacted. I guess that with those 0.4B€ France can now finance on top of that new recyclable cockpit straw, couturier designed ladder hand rails, Pikachu themed flight bags and other things deemed essential... Isn't it?
 
I’m using real numbers from French budget documents, not making them up. You’ve got nothing except the fact that other customers with deeper pockets paid more (of course they did! That’s how markets work).

Also, you’re not listening to what I’m saying: anyone who’s ever done cost accounting and complex contracts knows that there’s a big difference between fixed vs. variable costs, and upfront expenses vs lifetime value. It is perfectly OK to sell a product at 0 marginal upfront profit (€70M in the case of 1 new Rafale), or even as a loss-leader in order to lock in $$$ of lifetime value. It is also perfectly normal to give one “strategic” customer a hefty discount while giving another customer who has higher willingness to pay and few alternatives no discount at all. Companies like Airbus and Boeing do it all the time.

What matters is the total $ received over time... as long as a) the total lifetime value helps cover both your marginal costs and b) the contribution margin is sufficient to help cover your fixed costs, then you’ve got a going enterprise. Only the short-sighted would look only at short-term cash flow.

The above applies to Dassault but also to the French fighter enterprise as a whole, ie. the French government and the Armée de l’Air.
 
Either you think you're some sort of grand Houdinni or take this website for a housewives forum (to speak mysoginist), in either case I will leave you there since there is no point pursuing this conversation.
 
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TomcatViP said:
Where do I criticize France?! Stop drapping you with outfits that does not belong to you.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I stop nothing, AFAIK you are not webmaster or moderator.

My mind belong to me even if this mind don't please you.


TomcatViP said:
We are putting doubt on the seriousness of a deal granted by some here as a geniously machiavellian move what it is not, and underpinnings this unheard serie of odd similar give away deals since this administration took office (see the Great aircraft bazaar thread).
Loosing ~1.8B€ of assets to cash 0.4B€ will never be called a sane business practice or a strategic coup.

Think at Dassault Rafale customers that get to see their investments depreciated so abruptly.
Click to expand...
And it's not criticism or France ? Who speaks of "seriousness" ?

On your "Great aircraft bazaar" thread there is already all the answers by your opponents.

You don't want to see the political and military context. It's your right. As it is the right of your interlocutors to take them into account.

And about "seriousness" "machiavellian" and "unheard" :
Question to forumers: Does anyone have the list of American fighter jets provided for free (then for political and military reasons) to foreign countries since 1945 ?
 
I’ve read elsewhere that it seems that the eight freebies that are coming from existing French stocks are the very same Rafale's that attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier in the year.
 
Flyaway said:
I’ve read elsewhere that it seems that the eight freebies that are coming from existing French stocks are the very same Rafale's that attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier in the year.
Click to expand...
Hi,

What is (are) their source(s) ?

AFAIK there is no proof that (French or Egyptian) Rafale attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier this year.

The last sources that I red (in French), three months ago, said that it was an attack by Emirates Mirage 2000-9, and that it was GNA's (Libyan government supported by Turkey in Libya) opinion too :

www.afrik.com

Erdogan a reçu une tape sur les doigts en Libye. Plus à suivre ?

Une série de succès remportés par le gouvernement d'union national (GNA) soutenu par la Turquie en Libye a tourné court le 4 juillet lorsque la base
www.afrik.com www.afrik.com
Abdel-Malik Al-Medeni, spokesperson for Operation Volcano of Anger led by GNA units said the strikes were allegedly carried out by Mirage 2000-9 deployed by the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in Sidi al -Barani, Egypt. The UAE did not comment.
Click to expand...

www.opex360.com

La Turquie entend demander des comptes aux Émirats arabes unis sur la Libye et la Syrie - Zone Militaire

Le ton monte entre la Turquie et les Émirats arabes unis... Il faut dire que ces deux pays ont de nombreux contentieux à régler. Ainsi, la première a pris
www.opex360.com www.opex360.com
“Abu Dhabi is doing some things in Libya and Syria. All of this is being recorded. The accounts will be done on time, ”said Hulusi Akar, the Turkish Defense Minister, in an interview with Al Jazeera. “You have to ask Abu Dhabi where this hostility comes from, these bad intentions, this jealousy,” he added.
Click to expand...

The Emirates Mirage 2000-9 made alreaday attacks in Libya in August 2014.
 
Deltafan said:
Flyaway said:
I’ve read elsewhere that it seems that the eight freebies that are coming from existing French stocks are the very same Rafale's that attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier in the year.
Click to expand...
Hi,

What is (are) their source(s) ?

AFAIK there is no proof that (French or Egyptian) Rafale attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier this year.

The last sources that I red (in French), three months ago, said that it was an attack by Emirates Mirage 2000-9, and that it was GNA's (Libyan government supported by Turkey in Libya) opinion too :

www.afrik.com

Erdogan a reçu une tape sur les doigts en Libye. Plus à suivre ?

Une série de succès remportés par le gouvernement d'union national (GNA) soutenu par la Turquie en Libye a tourné court le 4 juillet lorsque la base
www.afrik.com www.afrik.com
Abdel-Malik Al-Medeni, spokesperson for Operation Volcano of Anger led by GNA units said the strikes were allegedly carried out by Mirage 2000-9 deployed by the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in Sidi al -Barani, Egypt. The UAE did not comment.
Click to expand...

www.opex360.com

La Turquie entend demander des comptes aux Émirats arabes unis sur la Libye et la Syrie - Zone Militaire

Le ton monte entre la Turquie et les Émirats arabes unis... Il faut dire que ces deux pays ont de nombreux contentieux à régler. Ainsi, la première a pris
www.opex360.com www.opex360.com
“Abu Dhabi is doing some things in Libya and Syria. All of this is being recorded. The accounts will be done on time, ”said Hulusi Akar, the Turkish Defense Minister, in an interview with Al Jazeera. “You have to ask Abu Dhabi where this hostility comes from, these bad intentions, this jealousy,” he added.
Click to expand...

The Emirates Mirage 2000-9 made alreaday attacks in Libya in August 2014.
Click to expand...
I’ve asked and they believe it was in an article a couple of months ago in possibly Defence News.
 
Flyaway said:
I’ve asked and they believe it was in an article a couple of months ago in possibly Defence News.
Click to expand...
I only found three articles on Defense News on the subject and nothing about these "eight freebies that are coming from existing French stocks are the very same Rafale's that attacked and damaged Turkish air defence systems deployed in Libya earlier in the year."

www.defensenews.com

Greece looks to France for new arms amid spat with Turkey

Athens stands to become the first European export customer for the French Rafale fighter jet.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
www.defensenews.com

France moves to replace the 12 Rafales sold to Greece

Total planned inventory of 129 Rafales will not change, French defense minister pledges.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

In this other one :

www.defensenews.com

Libya is turning into a battle lab for air warfare

What exactly is going on, who is winning and what has this conflict taught generals about modern air combat?
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

is said :

Analyst Harchaoui alleged that Emirati Mirage 2000-9 aircraft flying out of an Egyptian base had been supporting Haftar periodically since June 2019.
“Misrata airbase, which has hosted Turkish TB2 drones, was bombed multiple times last year by Emirati drones and jets until the Turks brought in Korkut and MIM-23 Hawk air defense systems. The raids over Misrata stopped in 2020 — probably because the UAE did not want to see a captured pilot show up tortured on Facebook,” he said. On July 4, fighter jets attacked Al-Watiya air base, just after Turkey had brought in its MIM-23 Hawk air defense missiles there. “Sonic booms heard over Sebha, in southwest Libya, suggest the aircraft took off from Egypt, then flew to Libya via the Sahara to avoid being spotted by Turkish frigates off the Libyan coast,” Harchaoui said. “Could it have been Egyptian Rafales? They are good but don’t have enough experience for an ultra-precise mission like this. French pilots flying Egyptian Rafales is unlikely in case one was captured, leaving the UAE Mirages as most likely.” Added Barrie: “Of all the Gulf states, the UAE is the most capable of this kind of mission — they have the combat experience and could do this.
Click to expand...


I cannot do better for the moment.
 
OK, I found it :

eurasiantimes.com

Rafale Jets: Amid Escalating Tensions With Turkey, Greece Could Get 'The Most Amazing Deal' On Rafales

Amid escalating tensions between Greece and Turkey, France has reportedly lent a helping hand to the former by equipping them with 18 Dassault Rafale fighter jets to fight their Mediterranean neighbors. The Rafales have been all over in the media after India received the first batch of...
eurasiantimes.com eurasiantimes.com

What is being speculated is that the deal will be moving ahead in two parts, with one being the purchase of 10 new Rafales, while the second being that the remaining jets will be parted as a gift to Athens. Reportedly, the eight Rafales were the jets that bombed the Turkish facilities at the al-Watiya airbase in Libya.
Click to expand...

Well, as known, the used Rafale for Greece are 12, not 8, and it would be interesting to know from where ("reportedly") Eurasiantimes knew that "they bombed the Turkish facilities at the al-Watiya airbase in Libya".

Or perhaps they mean that the 8/12 used French Rafale for Greece are from the same model as those which "bombed" al-Watiya, but there is still the lack of proof that any Rafale (French or Egyptian) bombed al-Watiya...
 
Also
Three more Rafale fighter aircrafts will arrive at the Jamnagar airbase in Gujarat from France on Wednesday, 4 November, as the air force prepares to form its first Rafale squadron at Ambala, said Hindustan Times (HT), citing officials familiar with the developments.
Click to expand...

3 More Rafale Jets Reach Gujarat, To Fly To Ambala Airbase Later

The three jets are in addition to the five jets that were inducted into the IAF in July.
www.thequint.com
 
Two remarks on the above:
- flight should be made of 4 aircraft, meaning that one aborted or one crew was not safe regarding Covid-19. If this is true, we should hear a confirmation from French MoD
- has it been confirmed when those three took off from Dassault plant in Merignac?
 
Also, the original report from the alleged French raid on Turkish Sam's in Lybia was posted here by me the week of the attack. It should be in this thread or in a thread on the Ex(!)-Lybian conflict
 
TomcatViP said:
Two remarks on the above:
- flight should be made of 4 aircraft,
Click to expand...

This isn't a given. The initial delivery flight was five aircraft, not four, and the statement says they anticipate delivery of 3 or 4 aircraft per month, so this may well be all that were ready to deliver this month.
 
TomcatViP said:
Also, the group targeted in Mali was the one that lately had benefitted from a large prisoner swap (~200) against hostages in the frame of their negociations with the Malian government.
www.la-croix.com

Au Mali, l’armée française porte un coup sévère à un groupe djihadiste

La ministre de la défense, Florence Parly, a annoncé au cours de son déplacement à Bamako, lundi 2 novembre, qu’une opération d’envergure avait été conduite par l’armée française contre un groupe djihadiste au Mali. Une opération qui s’ajoute à une autre commencée au début du mois d’octobre.
www.la-croix.com www.la-croix.com
Click to expand...
Why this article in the topic of the Rafale ? As said in the article, the raid was made by Mirage 2000 (D).
 
The 3 Rafale arrived safely flown directly from France (what would explain the odd number of airframe that they had enough fuel to tank from a French MRTT(?) ).

View: https://youtu.be/2T5Vy6Wu_Gc

m.tribuneindia.com

Three more Rafale jets arrive in India after flying non-stop from France

With the arrival of the new batch, the number of Rafale aircraft has increased to eight A second batch of three Rafale fighter jets arrived at Jamnagar airbase in Gujarat on Wednesday evening after flying non-stop from France, in a further boost to strike capability of the Indian Air Force when...
m.tribuneindia.com m.tribuneindia.com
 
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Immediately after the formalization of the contract, the first four Greek pilots will leave for France to be trained with Rafale jets by the French Air Force and executives of Dassault.
[...]
It has been agreed that the six Rafale F3R will come to Greece with a full load of armaments, particularly Meteor and Exocet missiles.
Click to expand...
greekcitytimes.com

Deal To Buy 18 French-made Rafale Fighter Jets Is Scheduled For December

The signing of the purchase agreement for the French-made Rafale fighter jets is scheduled for December.
greekcitytimes.com greekcitytimes.com
 
Deltafan said:
Nothing is done yet, but :

Indonesia toward an ordering of 36 to 48 Rafale (in French, sorry. Nothing in English for now)

L’Indonésie serait proche d’une commande de 48 Rafale français – Meta-Defense.fr (meta-defense.fr)

Florence Parly: vers une commande de "36 Rafale" par l'Indonésie (bfmtv.com) (the number is not given during the interview of the French Defense Minister)
Click to expand...

alright so by 2030 Indonesia's fleet would be..

Su-27
Su-30
Su-35
Rafale
Typhoon
KFX
Golden Eagle

makes sense
 
Rafale and Typhoon were actually oddballs in the mix. Considering their sudden appearance (not really sudden tho for Typhoon as they had presented their latest variant here some years ago)

Typhoon was wanted (now) due to their high climb rate, it would be used only in interceptor role by our National Air Defense Command (Kohanudnas-Komando Pertahanan Udara Nasional) At that point technical specs appears to matters little for decision maker.

Rafale was favoured by our MOD along with Scorpene submarine, at a point it is for "bargaining chip" with US as we also have US offering F18's and F-16V's but our MOD actually desires F-35's. Which US were happen to be not offering.

Sukhois like 27-30's are basically standard. as they use same engine, with exception of some parts which not really interchangeable. Su-27SKM is the "black sheep" in the mix as it is the most "different" Su-27 we have and it suffers from being only 3 of them made in all of the world.

Newer flanker are hampered by the fact nobody wants to offer a sacrificial account for CAATSA. The logic of CAATSA here is that our govt think that they need a permission for CAATSA waiver. While actually, one have to actually buy the goods first then got sanction, after that one can then negotiate for a waiver, this can be done through G2G OR Actually hire a lobbyist group.

The CAATSA itself however will target the person involved in the transaction not the whole country or such.. so when your country get CAATSA..it's not like Yahoo etc will suddenly block their service to the whole nation.

and our arms procurement are to be best volatile.


---------
Golden eagle is a trainer.. Does anyone have trainer sharing parts with their main fighter ? Ours are still TA-50.. they can do some attack but down to the soul they're trainer. Like why the recent Boeing trainer doesnt use F-100 or F-110 engine Which would be representative to current fighters. Except maybe those operating Early gripen variant or Classic hornet


There are points regarding standarization etc being brought but i'll be honest it's now more of a political argument than practical. It only used whenever Russian fighters being brought into discussion. Forgetting that Rafale, Typhoon and KFX are all twin engined fighters where people arguing against Russian fighters keep saying that "twin engined fighters are too expensive to operate because they are twin engined" Yet one can see Typhoon and Rafale being brought in disregarding the fact they have 0 commonality to eachother. and the KFX are using F-414 which God knows how much in common with F-404.

Same can be said for F-35 and F-16V Where Lockheed representative claims the latter is a "bridge" to former.. which doesnt make any sense considering how different they are.. one cannot fit F-135 to F-16V and PW-229 would probably be underpowered for F-35 and the fact the F-35 have internal bays which no falcon family ever have. It may have AESA radars but. Air cooled and liquid cooled is rather different animal here, and naturally i would assume difference in maintenance and certification. Our early F-16's use PW-220 with some 27K thrust rating. while 229 is much higher while latest F-15EX are offered with GE Engine which God knows how much in common with our PW powered F-16's and whether it would be compatible with existing maintenance infratstructure.

There was concern regarding our engine test-cell which only rated for early PW-220's whether it can be (particularly cost effectively) modified to handle much larger thrust rating AL-41F1. Same can be said to American new engine, can the cell handles PW-229 or even GE-F132.

So yeah, the biggest question is what kind of standardization people actually wants or wants to see ?
--------

Avionics would be problematic, of course mainly in datalink etc... There is unfortunately no cost effective or cheap means to address except developing our own datalink standard. This is difficult and always been but. considering Even in our GCI We operate diverse amount of Radar... some British Plessey still operates while the company making them no longer exist, Some operates the TRS-2215 both variants (modern, phased array one and others the early Parabolic antenna one). They have to talk to each other.

F-16 using SADL (if any). Sukhoi using (and proven) TKS datalink maybe the first fighter in our inventory to use and have datalink. They have to be unified.
 
Indonesia wants them fast... Wonder if Fast is as fast as the Greeks.

Funny enough, it's the the so call infamous Team Rafale that seemingly had their foot on the brake during the latest negociation rounds b/w the two MoD.

investir.lesechos.fr

Dassault Aviation a "très bien avancé" sur la vente de Rafale à l'Indonésie - Parly

PARIS (Agefi-Dow Jones)--Le processus de vente d'avions de chasse Rafale, fabriqués par Dassault Aviation, à l'Indonésie est "très bien avancé", a déclaré jeudi soir la ministre des Armées, Florence Parly sur BFM Business."Cette commande n'est pas tout à fait signée, nous y avons beaucoup...
investir.lesechos.fr investir.lesechos.fr

@Archibald :CAATSA: Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act
 
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... and they critized NASA for being accronym-addict LOL

Reminds me of Cat's eyes... my favorite of the three sisters, by far, was Hitomi Kisugi... although I would happily take any of the three, or even all three, no problem, really...

Wonder if Fast is as fast as the Greeks.
Click to expand...

I see where this is going. Will Florence Parly once again strip Pierre (the Armée de l'Air) to dress Paul or Jacques... ? No way, hell, no, we don't go !

(General De Villiers 2022 candidacy intensifies !)
 
Let's be honest, Parly Quinn was the loudest voice heard around opposed to strip down the AdlAE.
 
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helmutkohl said:
Deltafan said:
Nothing is done yet, but :

Indonesia toward an ordering of 36 to 48 Rafale (in French, sorry. Nothing in English for now)

L’Indonésie serait proche d’une commande de 48 Rafale français – Meta-Defense.fr (meta-defense.fr)

Florence Parly: vers une commande de "36 Rafale" par l'Indonésie (bfmtv.com) (the number is not given during the interview of the French Defense Minister)
Click to expand...

alright so by 2030 Indonesia's fleet would be..

Su-27
Su-30
Su-35
Rafale
Typhoon
KFX
Golden Eagle

makes sense
Click to expand...
Working on beating the Finnish WW2 time logistics nightmare?
 
perttime said:
helmutkohl said:
Deltafan said:
Nothing is done yet, but :

Indonesia toward an ordering of 36 to 48 Rafale (in French, sorry. Nothing in English for now)

L’Indonésie serait proche d’une commande de 48 Rafale français – Meta-Defense.fr (meta-defense.fr)

Florence Parly: vers une commande de "36 Rafale" par l'Indonésie (bfmtv.com) (the number is not given during the interview of the French Defense Minister)
Click to expand...

alright so by 2030 Indonesia's fleet would be..

Su-27
Su-30
Su-35
Rafale
Typhoon
KFX
Golden Eagle

makes sense
Click to expand...
Working on beating the Finnish WW2 time logistics nightmare?
Click to expand...
If you ever follow our arms procurement.. you will grow sick of so called "logistic nightmare" argument.
 
In regards to operating so many different types
it would seem that the main rationale would be strategic

1 You prefer one type, but your enemy also flies something similar
This would be like the situation with Greece. It flies American aircraft, but because its main rival is a fellow Nato country that also has American types, Greece has always had a French type as well

2 Your country is not really aligned with anyone and/or trying to be neutral/balanced
This would be like Malaysia in the 90s.. it had F-18s but Mahathir never fully trusted the US and felt they could stop spares at any time, so Malaysia also had Russian aircraft. Cold war Finland was the same.

3 Your country is trying to buy allies and influence
This would be like Qatar.. it doesnt need so many types, but with Saudi Arabia hating on them.. they're buying security through massive arms purchases with many different countries. Arguably Egypt is doing the same.

Indonesia to me doesn't seem to match any of the three profiles, but perhaps towards 2 at best.
to me, it would make sense if they just standardize upon 2 types.. the KFX (since they are already invested in it and have some control over the project) and a French type (French always being the popular option for the 2nd alternative). I would say Russia but doesn't the embargo make it harder for them to acquire spares?
 
helmutkohl said:
In regards to operating so many different types
it would seem that the main rationale would be strategic

1 You prefer one type, but your enemy also flies something similar
This would be like the situation with Greece. It flies American aircraft, but because its main rival is a fellow Nato country that also has American types, Greece has always had a French type as well

2 Your country is not really aligned with anyone and/or trying to be neutral/balanced
This would be like Malaysia in the 90s.. it had F-18s but Mahathir never fully trusted the US and felt they could stop spares at any time, so Malaysia also had Russian aircraft. Cold war Finland was the same.

3 Your country is trying to buy allies and influence
This would be like Qatar.. it doesnt need so many types, but with Saudi Arabia hating on them.. they're buying security through massive arms purchases with many different countries. Arguably Egypt is doing the same.

Indonesia to me doesn't seem to match any of the three profiles, but perhaps towards 2 at best.
to me, it would make sense if they just standardize upon 2 types.. the KFX (since they are already invested in it and have some control over the project) and a French type (French always being the popular option for the 2nd alternative). I would say Russia but doesn't the embargo make it harder for them to acquire spares?
Click to expand...
If you reading my post you will realize there are ways to circumvent so called "embargo" Which our country does not take because people cares about their bank account.

And you cannot make any comparison for this...like What India in the category ?

Plus you can never make sense of our arms procurement. Too much politics, too much interests.
 
stealthflanker said:
helmutkohl said:
In regards to operating so many different types
it would seem that the main rationale would be strategic

1 You prefer one type, but your enemy also flies something similar
This would be like the situation with Greece. It flies American aircraft, but because its main rival is a fellow Nato country that also has American types, Greece has always had a French type as well

2 Your country is not really aligned with anyone and/or trying to be neutral/balanced
This would be like Malaysia in the 90s.. it had F-18s but Mahathir never fully trusted the US and felt they could stop spares at any time, so Malaysia also had Russian aircraft. Cold war Finland was the same.

3 Your country is trying to buy allies and influence
This would be like Qatar.. it doesnt need so many types, but with Saudi Arabia hating on them.. they're buying security through massive arms purchases with many different countries. Arguably Egypt is doing the same.

Indonesia to me doesn't seem to match any of the three profiles, but perhaps towards 2 at best.
to me, it would make sense if they just standardize upon 2 types.. the KFX (since they are already invested in it and have some control over the project) and a French type (French always being the popular option for the 2nd alternative). I would say Russia but doesn't the embargo make it harder for them to acquire spares?
Click to expand...
If you reading my post you will realize there are ways to circumvent so called "embargo" Which our country does not take because people cares about their bank account.

And you cannot make any comparison for this...like What India in the category ?

Plus you can never make sense of our arms procurement. Too much politics, too much interests.
Click to expand...

India was mostly like 2..
French or British and Russian.
One from one side, and a similar type from the other.
i.e. Jaguar and MiG-27, Mirage 2000 and MiG-29, etc
at least it was that way for decades. but recently Americans were included
 
2000lb AASM successful separation test (Safran):

tir_separation_aasm1000_-_c_dassault_aviation_dr.jpg

Tests de séparation réussis pour l’AASM de 1000 kg à partir du Rafale | Mer et Marine

L’Armement Air-Sol Modulaire dans sa version 1000 kg, conçu et produit par Safran Electronics & Defense a réalisé avec succès ses deux premières sépa...
www.meretmarine.com www.meretmarine.com
 

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