Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

Used Rafale F-3R finalists in Croatia, with new F-16V. Decision for April (sorry, nothing in English for the moment):

www.vecernji.hr

Odluka u travnju: Rafale ili novi F-16

Nabava je financijski teška od 930 milijuna eura za rabljene do 1,6 milijardi dolara za nove zrakoplove
www.vecernji.hr www.vecernji.hr

www.konflikty.pl

Chorwacja wybierze miÄdzy F-16V i Rafaleâami

PojawiÅy siÄ pierwsze, nieoficjalne jeszcze, informacje na temat rozstrzygniÄcia przetargu na nowy wielozadaniowy samolot ...
www.konflikty.pl www.konflikty.pl
 
Last edited:
From the second link:
An even greater mystery is the French offer. While Rafale is the preferred option, according to unofficial information sourced from Croatian Air Force circles and from other bidders, no details of the French bid have been released. The price, weapons package, or possible economic benefits are unknown.
Click to expand...
...
Seems also the battle has been sharp with a potential contest of the results by Saab.
 
First link, under the title (for the "unknown" price of the Rafale)

Decision in April: Rafale or new F-16
Purchases are financially heavy, ranging from 930 million euros for used aircraft (Rafale) to 1.6 billion dollars for new aircraft (F-16)
Click to expand...


Second link

The winning auctions (Rafale AND F-16) are the most mysterious. Lockheed Martin has reportedly offered cooperation to six Croatian companies, but it is not known which companies are involved or what it would be. Americans generally only talk about including them in Lockheed's global supply chain.
Click to expand...

The details of the French bid are unknown by the journalists. But it's not written that it's unknown by the Croatian government.

Moreover in the second link too :

Croatian representatives announced that the fighters' combat capabilities, financial issues, timeliness of supply and the broader impact of supplier choices on Croatian foreign policy as a whole would be taken into account. That could have been the main advantage of the French offering.
First of all: it is about the supply of very modern fighters.
Second, because these are used aircraft that already exist physically, they can be delivered quickly.
Third, France is one of the two most important countries in the European Union and has a large arms industry, and therefore has the potential to offer many advantages to Croatian industry and politics.
All of this, however, remains in the realm of speculation.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Not to be too nipsy but how many airframe are there? I know that something was posted early on but not sure if we have seen a firm number yet (beside of the incredible amount).
Allegedly France offer includes an entire squadron which coud be, again, 12 used airframe pulled out of AdlAE* ranks.

Also, regarding the controversy and the potential complaint by Saab:
A campaign in Brussels

Over recent, semi-official information has been circulating in the public eye, which no one wants to officially comment on, and that's that the Swedes allegedly aren't intending to give up with their Gripen aircraft offer to Croatia easily because they're convinced that the Croatian tender has been rigged.

Namely, the Swedes, according to that source, are allegedly offering Croatia a loan with zero percent interest and a two-year grace period to pay the first installment of the loan. Reportedly, they're ready to lower their current price of 900 million euros for the entire package (aircraft, equipment, weapons, training and logistics). On the other hand, according to that same source, a campaign is planned to be launched in Brussels due to the alleged promotion of one bidder by HDZ.

Alleged ''proof'' of this is offered by the fact that the ruling HDZ newspaper has, in the past, published unsigned ''fan articles'', for which it isn't entirely clear whether they were paid or journalistic, in which the Gripen aircraft and the Swedish offer were apparently ''satanised''.
Click to expand...

Croatia for News, Travel, Sport, Business, Politics and Lifestyle

Total Croatia News, your guide to news, views and events in English. Local reporting from Croatia and Croatian communities worldwide.
www.total-croatia-news.com www.total-croatia-news.com
 
Last edited:
AFAIK, from the beginning the number of airframes for Croatia is 12... And from France, it's 12 used F-3R Rafale, from the beginning too...
 
So, when I wrote months ago that France's AdlAE was heading rapidly toward a less than 80 Rafale force, I was right.

80 at ~75% availability would mean that 60 are mission ready on average.

Also, Snecma/Safran confirms a potential partial transfer of actvities to HAL for the M88 production in India:

Under the terms of the MOU, HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines intend to explore opportunities to assemble the Safran M88 engine and manufacture components for the engine with HAL for additional batch of Rafale Aircraft for India and for any aircraft manufactured in India by HAL fitted with M88.

The transfer of a significant amount of technology in the assembling/manufacturing programs is also contemplated. The MOU also encompasses collaboration between HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines for indigenization programs relating to design and development of high thrust engines of 110 kN power and above with transfer of key technology in the framework of this development.
Click to expand...
www.safran-aircraft-engines.com

Safran Aircraft Engines

A world-class aircraft engines manufacturer Safran Aircraft Engines draws on an unrivaled legacy reaching back over 110 years to design, develop, produce and market, alone or in partnership, engines for civil and military aircraft.
www.safran-aircraft-engines.com www.safran-aircraft-engines.com
 
As usual Dassault will be paid to build 12 new ones.
I readily agree however that all these punctions may cripple the Armee de l'Air in the very short term.

Also never heard of such strategy in the Mirage days.
Back then export orders were either
-first hand from Dassault plant
- obsolete types retired to AdA Chateaudun storage depot (= Davis Monthan AMARC)

Never, ever in-service airframes out of the AdA present day inventory !

Is it some kind of (desperate?) trick to drop cost of Rafale F3s to bury the F-16 before the F-35 mass production steamrolls any alternative ?
 
Last edited:
It sounds as if in 1985 when Peru bought Mirage 2000C they were taken from a French squadron having just received them.
Weird
...
 
TomcatViP said:
So, when I wrote months ago that France's AdlAE was heading rapidly toward a less than 80 Rafale force, I was right.
Click to expand...

Actually the AdlAE Rafale fleet should see only a tiny reduction, bottoming out at 99 aircraft. It is 105 today, less 6 used Rafale for Grece this summer.

The remaining 6 used Rafale will be delivered in 2023, at which point France will have restarted deliveries of new-build Rafales, so no impact. Similarly if the 12 used jets for Croatia are delivered in 2024/25 (as per news reports), then they will be leaving as new build Rafales join the AdlA fleet.
 
Again, that is a twist of reality:
Rafale production spans over 2 years, so 2021 would be the latest date to see signs of an increase in production. If they are not doubling their capacity at this time, hence, recruiting in the next days or so (think training), you can be sure that the delay will be extended (since Dassault never miss a delivery date).
This will never happen...

Then DefenseNews has a different more realistic info:
The French Air and Space Force will have its 12 new aircraft by the end of 2025. Together with the 28 Rafales that Dassault is to deliver between 2022 and 2024, this will bring the total to 129, as projected in the 2019-2025 military program law.
Click to expand...
So if you want to add that 12 airframe potentially bound for Croatia b/w 2023 and 2025, Dassault production rate would have to be doubled starting in 2021... Doubtful. Or at best 2023.
Hence 2025 for the delivery at best while 2026 seems to be more realistic.

Hence the inevitable 60 available Rafale force (not even factoring-in the impact of attrition or the detrimental effect of stretching available workforce and available stocks on maintenance effectiveness!).
 
Last edited:
@TomcatViP France is receiving deliveries of 28 Rafale (ordered in 2019) in 2022-24, minus 24 aircraft (18 used and 6 new) going to Grece and Croatia in the same timeframe.

So that’s a wash (in fact a slight gain). The only used aircraft that aren’t being immediately substituted by new builds are the initial 6 used Rafales delivered this year.
 
H_K said:
@TomcatViP France is receiving deliveries of 28 Rafale (ordered in 2019) in 2022-24, minus 24 aircraft (18 used and 6 new) going to Grece and Croatia in the same timeframe.

So that’s a wash (in fact a slight gain). The only used aircraft that aren’t being immediately substituted by new builds are the initial 6 used Rafales delivered this year.
Click to expand...


Croatia? Since when will Croatia get Rafales? :oops:
 
Deino said:
H_K said:
@TomcatViP France is receiving deliveries of 28 Rafale (ordered in 2019) in 2022-24, minus 24 aircraft (18 used and 6 new) going to Grece and Croatia in the same timeframe.

So that’s a wash (in fact a slight gain). The only used aircraft that aren’t being immediately substituted by new builds are the initial 6 used Rafales delivered this year.
Click to expand...


Croatia? Since when will Croatia get Rafales? :oops:
Click to expand...

Either used Rafales or new F-16s.
 
Archibald said:
As usual Dassault will be paid to build 12 new ones.
I readily agree however that all these punctions may cripple the Armee de l'Air in the very short term.

Also never heard of such strategy in the Mirage days.
Back then export orders were either
-first hand from Dassault plant
- obsolete types retired to AdA Chateaudun storage depot (= Davis Monthan AMARC)

Never, ever in-service airframes out of the AdA present day inventory !

Is it some kind of (desperate?) trick to drop cost of Rafale F3s to bury the F-16 before the F-35 mass production steamrolls any alternative ?
Click to expand...
If I may Archie,
this happened before. Israel used about 60 SMB2 directly from Adl'A inventory.
Much later, you have the story of the few MN Super-Etendards "lend" to the Iraqis while waiting for their Exocet capable F-1EQ to be ready.
But true, all these (minus the lost ones) were returned later.
 
Accepted ! But SMB-2 were old obsolete stuff with a load of Mirage III incoming.

More generally, back then the AdA could afford that kind of sacrifices, since airframes were cheap and plentiful. Nearly two thousands of Ouragans and Mystères had been build only to be swept by plentiful Mirage III.

Good point too about the Super Etendards for the Iraqis.
 
Archibald said:
Accepted ! But SMB-2 were old obsolete stuff with a load of Mirage III incoming.

More generally, back then the AdA could afford that kind of sacrifices, since airframes were cheap and plentiful. Nearly two thousands of Ouragans and Mystères had been build only to be swept by plentiful Mirage III.

Good point too about the Super Etendards for the Iraqis.
Click to expand...
Indeed. In both case it was helping a Dassault costumer in need while waiting for another product to be ready ( MIIIC for Israel, F-1EQ for the Iraqis).
I see the same policy in the case of Greece, delivering readily available airframes to a Dassault costumer in need (moreover facing a common "adversary").
Is it good or bad for the Adl'A ? No idea, I'm no general... It seems these planes will be replaced by new ones tho.
 
Last edited:
The difference is that those planes were paid at a decent price and the context different (war). Iraki SE in particular were loaned (and given the spirit of the days, the financial compensation would certainly have been rewarding).
Here, we have planes just out of an upgrade that have been expected for long by the AdlAE in a context where minimal commitment to the programmatic law are not even met)!
 
Please, would all participants here be gracious enough to discuss the Dassault
Rafale only, and not French arms policy, or maybe selling weapons to certain
customers at giveaway prices ? Probably interesting discussions, too, but as
the word "arms policy" already suggests, it would too easily stray into politics,
apart from the fact, that this thread principally still is a NEWS ONLY thread ...
For the usual suspects in this thread, this is a warning, the second for one of them.
For all others, who might be tempted to jump on this bandwagon, of course, too !
 
stealthflanker said:
Visitation by Dassault official to Our MOD

https://www.kemhan.go.id/pothan/202...viation-perancis-ke-dirjen-pothan-kemhan.html

The team was actually arrived earlier but they got delayed due to our sudden COVID-19 prevention policy.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot stealthflanker :D

Can you help us for the translation of the article ?

I understood (thanks to Google trad) :

Thursday February 11, 2021. Director General Pothan Kemhan, accompanied by other Indonesian officials, received the visit of a delegation from Dassault. On this occasion, the Director General declared that this meeting was a presentation of the French company, represented by the vice-president of business development, Jean Claude Piccirillo, and the vice-president of Dassault Offset, Michael Paskoff.

Director General Pothan welcomed the arrival of the Dassault delegation as part of the acquisition of the Rafale multi-role combat aircraft. He hopes that defense cooperation between Indonesia and France will benefit both sides and can advance the Indonesian defense industry.

The two sides hope that discussions on offsets for the acquisition of the Rafales will take place in a good atmosphere, while allowing progress on both sides, as well as an early implementation.
Click to expand...

What is good, or not, in my translation ?
 
The UAE has yet to determine its replacement for its old Mirage 2000 fleet, while keeping a commitment to the European industry. Although it is still unclear whether the Gulf country is planning to upgrade its current Mirage fleet, sources tell Breaking D that negotiations on the Rafale deal re-surfaced again.

“The Emiratis were very close to sealing the deal years ago, but they turned it down because the price was too high,” said one military source who wished not to be named. “Today, they are potentially considering 36 to 60 units because the jet’s price became more competitive due to the spike of Rafale sales to the region and abroad.”

The UAE could be eying “the F4 version armed with SCALP and Meteor missiles,” he added, a standard that will notably improve the connectivity of the Rafale and its ability to operate as part of a any network.
Click to expand...
However the report makes the case that Rafale could be in direct competition with the 15X, something that was anticipated long ago. The key in this battle is in overall cost of ownership that the report study trough force integration.
It will also remain interesting how market ruling will impact the outcome with an US administration that would undoubtedly perpetuate its scrutiny against European market share gains.

breakingdefense.com

Amphib Boxer soon to be sidelined again for 18 months of maintenance - Breaking Defense

A new government contracting notice says the ship will undergo maintenance from April 2025 through October 2026.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
Last edited:
On the other hand, the Biden administration has already blotted its copybook pretty badly with the UAE, not to mention other Middle Eastern countries such as Saudi Arabia and Israel. Which may have a rather unfortunate effect on any future attempted exports to that region.
 
True. But I don't think that any sain ppl would let go the opportunity to get their hands on some F-35

—-------------------
A Mig29 refuelling an Egyptian Rafale:
1613603403832-png.650975

View attachment 650975

As someone a link to the related video?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Last edited:
Last edited:
I don't know if it's "nebulous", but your post in Indonesian does not come from Turkey but from Indonesia. As this one that I did not share before on SPF, because I was not able to give a good translation (and there is a mistake of years : 2012 instead of 2021).

www.republika.co.id

Hingga 2024, TNI AU Incar Rafale, F-15, dan Hercules C-130J |Republika Online

Perwakilan Dassault Aviation sudah bertemu Dirjen Pothan Kemenhan di Jakarta.
www.republika.co.id www.republika.co.id

For the Rafale part there is something as :

For the Indonesian Air Force, the plan is to modernize and refurbished all fighter aircraft and to procure combat and transport aircraft, such as 36 Dassault Rafale multi role combat aircraft (MRCA), 15 F-15EX units, 15 Hercules C-130J units, up to two multi role tanker transport (MRTT) tanker units.
Click to expand...
 
Deltafan said:
I don't know if it's "nebulous", but your post in Indonesian does not come from Turkey but from Indonesia.
Click to expand...
I perfectly know it doesn't come from Turkey... That why I selected it, an Indonesian websites, given that the Buyer is from that country.

We will see how this unfold but be aware that on my radar this news appeared first on two Turkish website (identical report) before making surface in Indonesia.

I understand that we are lucky to have some Indonesian poster here so let's wait what's their take on it if they would be pleased to share ;)
 
Well, give us the links of these turkish sources. It will be interesting to see day and hour.
 
helmutkohl said:
okay to confirm
Indonesia has or will have:

Hawk 200, T/A-50s, F-16s, F-5s, Su-27s, Su-30, Rafale, F-15, Typhoon, KFX
makes sense
Click to expand...
Just the geopolitical military diplomacy of the general area writ large.

Malaysia: Hawk 200, F-18s, Su-27, Mig-29
Thailand: Alpha Jet, F-5, F-16, Gripen
 
starviking said:
helmutkohl said:
okay to confirm
Indonesia has or will have:

Hawk 200, T/A-50s, F-16s, F-5s, Su-27s, Su-30, Rafale, F-15, Typhoon, KFX
makes sense
Click to expand...
Just the geopolitical military diplomacy of the general area writ large.

Malaysia: Hawk 200, F-18s, Su-27, Mig-29
Thailand: Alpha Jet, F-5, F-16, Gripen
Click to expand...

And "Matador" Harriers, vintage 1971, standing on the deck of the most expensive Royal Yacht in the world...
 
Last edited:
A warning for inappropriate language for remembering a member how to be polite with his demands!!!!
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom