How about two or three of the 'E2' design (or Atomic Coyote's similar design) for the RAN? I will call them Tiger cubs as per author Alexander Clarke. They would not be laid down in the UK in 1913, but after the Armistice, so that their design can incorporate post-Jutland magazine protection improvements and the vast increase in attention to torpedo defense in 1919 as compared to 1913. (HMS Defence of comparable size exploded at Jutland, killing her entire crew.) And 1919 would allow a more efficient geared drive for the turbines, rather than the older direct drive. While sort of "pocket battleships", the Tiger cubs are not capital ships, and thus are not banned by the Washington Naval Treaty. As mentioned in post #69 above, Australia never did have a battle line, so the Tiger cubs not being powerful enough for the line is of no consequence. They would fit into the Sutherland drydock in Sydney.

As per the bolded part above...
E2 is a 15,500 ton "normal", 8x9.2" gunned warship.

(The table showing Warrior & Invincible as well as the "E" designs gives the "normal" displacements for Warrior & Invincible, so the tonnages given must also be "normal" for the "E" ships.)

That means on both tonnage and armament the historic Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 DOES consider them capital ships!

Article XI
No vessel of war exceeding 10,000 tons (10,160 metric tons) standard displacement, other than a capital ship or aircraft carrier,
shall be acquired by, or constructed by, for, or within the jurisdiction of, any of the Contracting Powers. Vessels not specifically built as fighting ships nor taken in time of peace under government control for fighting purposes, which are employed on fleet duties or as troop transports or in some other way for the purpose of assisting in the prosecution of hostilities otherwise than as fighting ships, shall not be within the limitations of this Article.
Article XII
No vessel of war of any of the Contracting Powers, hereafter laid down, other than a capital ship, shall carry a gun with a calibre in excess of 8 inches (203 millimetres).

Once again, a rather different WNT1922 (or no treaty at all) must be in place for this plan to be allowable.
 
Warship 2017 contained a "Warship Notes" short article by Ian Johnston about a "Canadian Super Yard" dating to 1910-11. He had been digging in the records of Fairfield in Glasgow and came across several plans for a new shipyard for Haifax in Canada, but with little additional information. There were 3 plans for yards if different sizes.

The largest covered 140 acres (none in Britain at the time exceeded 100 acres). It had 11 covered berths as 1x1,000ft, 1x800ft, 3x600ft, 6x500ft. There was also an 1,100ft dry dock capable of being divided in two.

On 9 March 1911 Fairfield's Chairman reported to the Board "negotiations regarding a Canadian shipbuilding programme and was authorised to proceed on the matter".
That’s very interesting. Sydney steel works were some of the largest in the British Empire and were connected to Halifax by both rail and coastal barge. And with some investment could probably learn to produce armour plate. Specialty items like large calibre guns (and possibly whole turrets, fire control equipment and the like would likely have to come in from Britain though. At least until and unless the capability was developed domestically.

I wonder where they would have put it?

Halifax Dockyard did not, I don’t believe, yet extend as far up the Narrows as it does currently. So maybe they could have put it there. More or less where Irving Shipyard or the container dock is now. It could also possibly have gone directly across the Narrows from the Dockyard in the area that is now the Dockyard Annex.

However, sounds like this may have been commercially owned with Fairfield’s involvement (unless they were just contracted to design it). If so, then perhaps a location in Bedford Basin would be chosen. Either near Dartmouth Slipways on the Dartmouth side or near Bedford on the Halifax side.

Either way, an interesting might have been. Thanks for that!
 
As per the bolded part above...
E2 is a 15,500 ton "normal", 8x9.2" gunned warship.

That means on both tonnage and armament the historic Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 DOES consider them capital ships!

Article XI
No vessel of war exceeding 10,000 tons (10,160 metric tons) standard displacement, other than a capital ship or aircraft carrier,
shall be acquired by, or constructed by, for, or within the jurisdiction of, any of the Contracting Powers. Vessels not specifically built as fighting ships nor taken in time of peace under government control for fighting purposes, which are employed on fleet duties or as troop transports or in some other way for the purpose of assisting in the prosecution of hostilities otherwise than as fighting ships, shall not be within the limitations of this Article.
Article XII
No vessel of war of any of the Contracting Powers, hereafter laid down, other than a capital ship, shall carry a gun with a calibre in excess of 8 inches (203 millimetres).


Once again, a rather different WNT1922 (or no treaty at all) must be in place for this plan to be allowable.

I hear you, BlackBat, and I had known of the 10,000 long tons standard displacement limit ("standard" being a new measure, defined in the Washington Naval Treaty itself). But I didn't know the signed Treaty was meant to be retroactive like that. If so, how for example did big armored cruiser USS Pennsylvania (later Pittsburgh) stay in active USN service until 1931? She was certainly not one of the fifteen battleships that signatory United States retained after the Treaty, which are all accounted for. Nor was she disarmed. The famous "Treaty cruisers" were those built subsequent to ratification; or am I mistaken?

I had written in post #76 of the different thread "Post-1914 Pre-Dreadnought and Armoured Cruiser Modernizations " that:
...the Imperial Japanese Navy, having re-rated in 1912 their four big, shiny armored cruisers of the Tsukuba and Ibuki classes (each with four 12" guns) as "battlecruisers" (for prestige, to fill the new Royal Navy category before the Kongos were built), rued that re-rating just ten years later, when the Washington Naval Treaty classed all battlecruisers as capital ships and allowed only a strict limit to survive. The three surviving ships (Tsukuba exploded at anchor in 1917) had to be disarmed and go to the scrappers, although they had plenty of life left in their hulls. If the admirals had controlled themselves and simply kept the original 'armored cruiser' tag, then the ships could have had much longer, very useful lives... some of the even older armored cruisers were kept in the IJN till the end of World War 2, albeit in secondary roles...
If BlackBat is understanding the Washington Naval Treaty's terms better than I am, then I was wrong about the above, and the hefty Tsukuba and Ibuki classes were doomed anyway due to their weight, not their battlecruiser designation. What do the lawyers on this thread say?

I haven't yet been able to read the cited DK Brown book, but the 1913 E2 design's 15.5kt could not be a measure of standard displacement. The term would not exist for another nine years, until its legal definition was hashed out during the Washington Naval Treaty negotiations. But BlackBat's point stands, that whatever the standard displacement it would be well above 10k long tons. My alternate-history proposal was for two or three Royal Australian Navy Tiger cubs armed with 9.2-inch guns like the E2 or Atomic Coyote's slimmer 12kt design to be built in 1919-21, taking full advantage of WW1 combat experience yet slipping them in before the Washington Naval Treaty took effect. If that would not be legal as BlackBat states, then Australia is stuck. A Tiger cub would require even more gross cheating than German pocket battleship Admiral Scheer ("10kt" standard as per Treaty of Versailles; actually 11.5kt), Italian Zara class ("10kt" standard as per WNT; actually 11.5kt), and Japanese Takao class ("10kt" standard as per WNT; actually 11.3kt), and unlike those Axis-to-be cheaters Australia would have kept its word.

So we're back to retaining the flawed Indefatigable-class battlecruiser until WW2. Or believing (which is very possible) that Australia's actual modest fleet of cruisers, destroyers, and corvettes was in fact the best choice for the country's circumstances, considering all feasible alternatives.
 
How about two or three of the 'E2' design (or Atomic Coyote's similar design) for the RAN? I will call them Tiger cubs as per author Alexander Clarke. They would not be laid down in the UK in 1913, but after the Armistice, so that their design can incorporate post-Jutland magazine protection improvements and the vast increase in attention to torpedo defense in 1919 as compared to 1913. (HMS Defence of comparable size exploded at Jutland, killing her entire crew.) And 1919 would allow a more efficient geared drive for the turbines, rather than the older direct drive.

So you are assuming that your "laid down in 1919" ships would be completed before the treaty is negotiated - I was seeing the post-war virtual halt in construction having delayed them a couple of years - as it did the Hawkins class other than the lead ship. Even Hawkins took 3 years to build - the others took from just under 5 years to a little over 8 years to complete.

As such, these new powerful cruisers (much more powerful than any of the old (1905-1908) USN armored cruisers) would need to be specifically addressed in the treaty - and if not already completed may well not be allowed to be.
 
It is worthwhile taking a look at Hansard for the debate on the Naval Estimates for 1919/20 that took place on 24 July 1919 to get a flavour of what was in the minds of those on the scene at the time, which is the context any change of RN plans must be read.

For clarity, from Jan 1919 the First Lord of the Admiralty in 1919 was Walter Long MP.

A few highlights:-
Downsizing the RN through demob from its wartime size. And then.


"....At the date of the Armistice there were under order 302 warships and 806 auxiliaries. There arc now being completed 84 warships and 110 auxiliaries. They are ships which in the opinion of the naval advisers of the Admiralty are either essential in order to replace old ships to help to meet the ravages of the War or ships which were so far advanced in their construction that it would have been very bad economy to have scrapped them....."

The 84 were

"There is one battle-cruiser, the "Hood," which was in a very advanced stage of construction—we cancelled the other three—fourteen light cruisers, four destroyer leaders, thirty-three destroyers, and thirty-two submarines. Some of these were essential. Before the War, when we were threatened with the German menace, it was impossible to have ships for every purpose, and we had to abandon some of the work which our Navy has to do, and which it is essential it should do. I mean, for instance, what is known as showing the Flag in different parts of the waters of the Empire. I have no doubt from all I heard that the advantages which follow from our flag being shown all over the, world are enormous. For this purpose, of course, light cruisers are essential. With regard to the other ships, they are either necessary or they were under construction and so far advanced that it was not possible to take them up."

The other 3 Admiral class battlecruisers were cancelled on 27 Feb 1919. Rodney for example had only had a few thousand tons of steel laid down and was costing the RN money to preserve it on the slip. At the same time its builders were pushing to get the slip cleared so they could get back to building highly profitable merchant shipping.

".....Really we are not in a position at this moment to say what is an effective battleship. No one knows as yet—I hope we shall have more definite information shortly—what is going to be the precise form of naval warfare in the future. ....."

And while pay rates for sailors seems to have been dealt with promptly, that of officers was not. All that ate into the available RN budget.
 
So you are assuming that your "laid down in 1919" ships would be completed before the treaty is negotiated - I was seeing the post-war virtual halt in construction having delayed them a couple of years - as it did the Hawkins class other than the lead ship. Even Hawkins took 3 years to build - the others took from just under 5 years to a little over 8 years to complete.

As such, these new powerful cruisers (much more powerful than any of the old (1905-1908) USN armored cruisers) would need to be specifically addressed in the treaty - and if not already completed may well not be allowed to be.

I agree with your second paragraph[1]. These mini-battlecruisers[2] would be a point of negotiation in the WNT. I can see several possibilities:
  1. The treaty requires them to be scrapped on the ways.
  2. They get counted as capital ships
  3. Cruiser limits get moved up to 9.2 in guns and 15,500 tons or something near that (France had 9.45 in guns, the USN didn't use fractions of an inch for any guns from 3 in up, so they'd want 10 in, and Japan had 10 in guns in service, so they'd probably want that bore, also)
  4. They get a one-time exemption.
  5. They can't be finished as mini-battlecruisers, in the same way that the USN' Lexington and Saratoga couldn't be finished as battlecruisers.
Nothing really happens from option 1 or 2.

I think that option 3 would be the most complex and difficult option (even worse than option 4). The UK's 9.2 in guns were the smallest in this range. France's was 240 mm (9.45 in) and Japan, the US, and Italy used 10 in guns. This would probably push the tonnage limit to something in the range of 17,500 to 20,000 tons. So, the WNT (if one could be settled upon!) could end up with article XI having a tonnage limit of 17,500 tons and article XII a limit of 10 in guns.

I think the first preference of the other WNT signatories would be for option 1: poking each other in the eye with a stick seemed to be a popular activity shortly after WW1. The Commonwealth would really dislike option 2: what useful capital ship gets scrapped? Option 4 seems quite unlikely: what does the Commonwealth concede to the other signatories to get this exemption? The Commonwealth dislikes options 1 and 2, but pushes for option 4. Nobody want's option 3 (the category is getting too close to existing, older capital ships). Nobody -- except the Commonwealth accepts option 4. This leaves, in my opinion, option 5 as the most likely. The results may be a bit small for carriers, but may be acceptable once bulged and getting those 3,000 tons allowed for underwater protection to be added on.




----------------------------------
[1] I'm sure that has made no difference to your day.
[2] "Dreadnought armoured cruiser" was already used.
 
The results may be a bit small for carriers, but may be acceptable once bulged and getting those 3,000 tons allowed for underwater protection to be added on.
There are sixth option - they may be downgraded in terms of guns to fit the limits. I.e. either re-armed with existing 7.5-inch/45 Mark VI guns, or their construction prolonged till the new 8-inch/50 Mark VIII gun would became available. This would basically solve the problem and also reduce their displacement somwehat. While they would still be bigger and better protected than WNT heavy cruisers, they would also be slower and less useful as scouts or trade protectors.
 
So you are assuming that your "laid down in 1919" ships would be completed before the treaty is negotiated - I was seeing the post-war virtual halt in construction having delayed them a couple of years - as it did the Hawkins class other than the lead ship. Even Hawkins took 3 years to build - the others took from just under 5 years to a little over 8 years to complete.
As such, these new powerful cruisers (much more powerful than any of the old (1905-1908) USN armored cruisers) would need to be specifically addressed in the treaty - and if not already completed may well not be allowed to be.
I agree with your second paragraph[1]. These mini-battlecruisers[2] would be a point of negotiation in the WNT. I can see several possibilities:
  1. The treaty requires them to be scrapped on the ways.
  2. They get counted as capital ships
  3. Cruiser limits get moved up to 9.2 in guns and 15,500 tons or something near that (France had 9.45 in guns, the USN didn't use fractions of an inch for any guns from 3 in up, so they'd want 10 in, and Japan had 10 in guns in service, so they'd probably want that bore, also)
  4. They get a one-time exemption.
  5. They can't be finished as mini-battlecruisers, in the same way that the USN' Lexington and Saratoga couldn't be finished as battlecruisers.
Nothing really happens from option 1 or 2.
I think that option 3 would be the most complex and difficult option (even worse than option 4). The UK's 9.2 in guns were the smallest in this range. France's was 240 mm (9.45 in) and Japan, the US, and Italy used 10 in guns. This would probably push the tonnage limit to something in the range of 17,500 to 20,000 tons. So, the WNT (if one could be settled upon!) could end up with article XI having a tonnage limit of 17,500 tons and article XII a limit of 10 in guns.
I think the first preference of the other WNT signatories would be for option 1: poking each other in the eye with a stick seemed to be a popular activity shortly after WW1. The Commonwealth would really dislike option 2: what useful capital ship gets scrapped? Option 4 seems quite unlikely: what does the Commonwealth concede to the other signatories to get this exemption? The Commonwealth dislikes options 1 and 2, but pushes for option 4. Nobody want's option 3 (the category is getting too close to existing, older capital ships). Nobody -- except the Commonwealth accepts option 4. This leaves, in my opinion, option 5 as the most likely. The results may be a bit small for carriers, but may be acceptable once bulged and getting those 3,000 tons allowed for underwater protection to be added on.

Without actually engaging any of my objections, BlackBat seems to be backing off his earlier claim that the Washington Naval Treaty would retroactively compel the scrapping of any ships of Tiger cub or similar design for the Royal Australian Navy. And I dispute that a built Tiger cub would be "much more powerful than", for example, a 14.5kt Tennessee-class cruiser with four 10" guns and sixteen 6" guns, and thus would require special consideration during Treaty negotiations. So 1635yankee's legalistic work-arounds are not needed, and I return to my original suggestion. As I have always said, my suggestion is with the benefit of hindsight about Australia's economic development course and its dire need of appropriate ships during WW2. Actual Australian decision-makers immediately following the "war to end all wars" did not have this benefit.

The ratified Washington Naval Treaty took effect in August 1923. That would give Australian shipyards (admittedly less experienced than some) almost five years from Armistice Day: not impossible for 12 or 15kt ships, given the will. Around the same time, Japan (a country that had begun building capital ships for itself as recently as 1905) finished 33kt Mutsu in 3.5 years.
 
Without actually engaging any of my objections, BlackBat seems to be backing off his earlier claim that the Washington Naval Treaty would retroactively compel the scrapping of any ships of Tiger cub or similar design for the Royal Australian Navy. And I dispute that a built Tiger cub would be "much more powerful than", for example, a 14.5kt Tennessee-class cruiser with four 10" guns and sixteen 6" guns, and thus would require special consideration during Treaty negotiations. So 1635yankee's legalistic work-arounds are not needed, and I return to my original suggestion. As I have always said, my suggestion is with the benefit of hindsight about Australia's economic development course and its dire need of appropriate ships during WW2. Actual Australian decision-makers immediately following the "war to end all wars" did not have this benefit.

The ratified Washington Naval Treaty took effect in August 1923. That would give Australian shipyards (admittedly less experienced than some) almost five years from Armistice Day: not impossible for 12 or 15kt ships, given the will. Around the same time, Japan (a country that had begun building capital ships for itself as recently as 1905) finished 33kt Mutsu in 3.5 years.

These ships very existence would significantly change they negotiations that lead to the WNT. The pre-Invincible armored cruisers were pretty much ignored in the WNT (although not necessarily in the negotiations), which leads me to believe that they were generally (or at least by the US, UK, and Japan) to be pretty much useless in modern naval warfare. A modern ship, just entering service would change the treaty. It's unlikely for anybody to say "yep; we'll just ignore these mini-battlecruisers." The cruiser section, at a very minimum would be completely re-written.

The RN had to negotiate to be permitted to keep the WW1 15 in gun monitors, which could barely make it from Portsmouth to the Solent if the wind were to blow the wrong way. Why would you think these mini-battlecruisers would get a free pass? Somebody would demand the right to build a counter, and the best way for everyone else would be to force the RN to count them as capital ships.
So, which additional real battleship or battlecruiser do you give up?
 
And I dispute that a built Tiger cub would be "much more powerful than", for example, a 14.5kt Tennessee-class cruiser with four 10" guns and sixteen 6" guns, and thus would require special consideration during Treaty negotiations.
As I said above - just downgrade their armament by replacing 9.2-inch guns with 7.5-inch or 8-inch ones.
 
The J class was a design of fast ocean submarine dating from 1913 and ordered in Jan 1915, to work with the fleet, with a surfaced speed of 19.5 knots. Not much information has been retained in the ships's cover about them. J7 was built to a modified design with the control room and conning tower further at than in the others. As the J class wasn't deemed fast enough that led to the steam powered 24 knot K class. The concept of this type of submarine rapidly went out of favour.
These submarines seem to have been in relatively poor condition when passed to the RAN and only deteriorated further in RAN service. The cost of refitting them and subsequently maintaining them was why they went to reserve in 1922. By 1921 they required new battery sets.
They were also equipped with 18in TT at a time when the RN was seeking to standardise on the much more powerful 21in.
Otway & Oxley were built for the RAN as a slightly modified version of the RN Oberon, the first of the new post WW1 generation of patrol submarines designed with a view to tackling the IJN out of Hong Kong and so requiring greater range than previous designs..
The design requirements for Oberon arose from an RN Conference in Feb 1922, with the design approved by the Admiralty in Feb 1923 for inclusion in the 1923/24 programme. Laying down this sub was delayed by work to complete the WW1 programme ships in an effort to smooth work flow in the Royal Dockyards and industry. As a result it was March 1924 before she was laid down.
Oxley & Otway followed at VA (Barrow) in March 1925. But these did not live up to expectations, proving slower than expected at the design stage (13.74 v 15.5 knots). All three completed between July & Sept 1927. As the first of a new type there would have been all sorts of trials to complete before they could be dispatched to Australia
The next 6 modified Oberons for the RN were pushed back from the 1925/26 Programme to the 1926/27 Programme. These were followed by 6 Parthian class in 1927/28 and 6 (reduced to 4 in July 1929 as part of the run up to the 1930 LNC). These completed Feb 1929 - Jan 1932.

My suggestion for the Royal Australian Navy to keep submarines in service through WW2 as a better alternative to the Indefatigable-class battlecruiser has hardly set this thread afire, EwenS. The bad experience with British-built 1200-ton J-class submarines, ostensibly of high speed and long range, that you mention helps explain real-life RAN disinterest from the 1930's to the 1960's, despite the proven success of Dutch subs that fled south to Australia and operated against local Japanese shipping. Modern Australian interest in submarines, with the hefty Collins class (home-built near Adelaide) and now the planned AUKUS nuclear subs, is more robust.
 
There weren't perhaps as many Dutch subs operating from Fremantle as you might imagine nor how late most of them actually arrived:-

Only 3 arrived in Australia in March 1942 from the DEI all in very poor condition.
K-VIII - decommissioned May 1942 due to defects.
K-IX was turned over to the RAN in July 1942, serving with it until March 1944, but mechanical defects prevented futher use. Converted to an oil lighter. Lost while under tow June 1945
K-XII - used 8/42 - 5/43 for clandestine drops in the DEI then for AS training. Laid up May 1944

Others that operated out of Australia were:-
K-XV - 2/44-8/45. Largely engaged in clandestine work
K-XIV - 4/44-8/45. also used for clandestine drops
O-19 - 9/44-7/45. Lost by grounding July 1945 en route Subic Bay
Zwaardfisch - 9/44-4/45 RN T class transferred on completion.
O-21 - 8-11/43 only for repairs before going to USA via UK. Returned between 5-8/45 1 patrol.
O-23 - arrived Fremantle 3 Sept 1945
O-24 - 5-8/45 Just 1 patrol out of Fremantle.

These boats were attached to the Bristish 8th Sub flotilla until May 1945 when they transferred to the 4th Sub flotilla. By late 1944 there was a dearth of targets worthy of a torpedo.
 
These ships very existence would significantly change they negotiations that lead to the WNT. The pre-Invincible armored cruisers were pretty much ignored in the WNT (although not necessarily in the negotiations), which leads me to believe that they were generally (or at least by the US, UK, and Japan) to be pretty much useless in modern naval warfare. A modern ship, just entering service would change the treaty. It's unlikely for anybody to say "yep; we'll just ignore these mini-battlecruisers." The cruiser section, at a very minimum would be completely re-written.

The RN had to negotiate to be permitted to keep the WW1 15 in gun monitors, which could barely make it from Portsmouth to the Solent if the wind were to blow the wrong way. Why would you think these mini-battlecruisers would get a free pass? Somebody would demand the right to build a counter, and the best way for everyone else would be to force the RN to count them as capital ships.
So, which additional real battleship or battlecruiser do you give up?

While I am open to the opinion that the RAN's actual limited fleet of cruisers, destroyers, and corvettes was in fact their optimal choice for WW2, and while I think a mildly refitted extant Indefatigable-class battlecruiser would probably be sunk with great loss of life during the savage fighting of 1941-42, and while I believe Alexander Clarke's lengthy video about Tiger cubs for the WW1 Royal Navy is unpersuasive, I was taken with the thought that two or three Tiger cubs could serve valuably as speedy "pocket battleships" for interwar Australia, and not be subject to the Washington Naval Treaty (this thread had earlier discussed reasonable alternate realities which would have allowed the battlecruiser to survive the Treaty). 1635yankee's expressed belief that such modest warships as the Tiger cubs would be world-changing and Treaty-shattering is, er, debatable, to say no more. I will leave things at that. The cubs were just a thought: not a big deal to me.
 
Australian troops, RAAF squadrons, and RAN warships fought hard against the Axis in the Mediterranean, Greece, Lebanon, and North Africa, including in the 1940 Naval Battle of Cape Spada, the 1941 Siege of Tobruk, and the 1942 Battles of El Alamein. But after disastrous losses at Singapore and the Dutch East Indies, the bulk of Australian forces redeployed back to the homeland to defend against the Japanese, and thereafter fought in the South West Pacific Theater, most notably the New Guinea campaign. A substantial fraction of Australia's 27k killed during WW2 were POW's whom their Japanese captors later bayoneted or starved to death.
 
Without actually engaging any of my objections, BlackBat seems to be backing off his earlier claim that the Washington Naval Treaty would retroactively compel the scrapping of any ships of Tiger cub or similar design for the Royal Australian Navy. And I dispute that a built Tiger cub would be "much more powerful than", for example, a 14.5kt Tennessee-class cruiser with four 10" guns and sixteen 6" guns, and thus would require special consideration during Treaty negotiations. So 1635yankee's legalistic work-arounds are not needed, and I return to my original suggestion. As I have always said, my suggestion is with the benefit of hindsight about Australia's economic development course and its dire need of appropriate ships during WW2. Actual Australian decision-makers immediately following the "war to end all wars" did not have this benefit.

The ratified Washington Naval Treaty took effect in August 1923. That would give Australian shipyards (admittedly less experienced than some) almost five years from Armistice Day: not impossible for 12 or 15kt ships, given the will. Around the same time, Japan (a country that had begun building capital ships for itself as recently as 1905) finished 33kt Mutsu in 3.5 years.
1. I NEVER claimed that the WNT in any way was "retroactively compel scrapping of completed ships" other than those specifically named in the treaty - many of which were long been completed.

However, the WNT was negotiated so that ships under construction had to fit the terms of the treaty - the US was barred from completing BB-47 USS Washington - despite her being 75.9-percent-complete on 8 February 1922 - WHICH WAS THE DATE THE WNT WAS AGREED!
Laid down30 June 1919
Launched1 September 1921
Stricken8 February 1922

As your post specified 1919 as the construction start it was clear to anyone who has looked at the real-world construction histories of ships that there was no way they would be completed before the terms of the WNT would be set.

Yes, while the treaty "was proclaimed" (came into effect generally) in August 1923 (because that was how long it took all 5 nations to formally sign it), the treaty specified that it controlled events from the conclusion of negotiations on - it specifically decreed actions to be taken on capital ships under construction in the US and Japan including which ones were to be scrapped even though those could have been completed before the end of 1923. The US was allowed to complete 2 of the 3 16" battleships under construction (Colorado, launched before Washington and West Virginia, launched after Washington - Maryland had commissioned 19 July 1921), and Japan was allowed to keep Mutsu in service (when the treaty negotiations began on 12 November 1921 the US proposed scrapping ALL ships under construction - even Mutsu, which had commissioned 24 October 1921 - as she was still in shipyard hands for final detail work. Japan was only allowed to keep Mutsu after Japan agreed the US could complete Colorado and West Virginia.

I cannot see any armoured cruisers still under construction faring any better.


2. As I noted above, the UK wasn't completing cruisers in less than 3 years from laying down after the end of the war, and was actually taking significantly longer for most of the Hawkins class.

There is no possibility Australia could do any better with a completely and much larger new design - using plans given them by the RN, and with boilers, turbines, and guns made in the UK, they took 3 years 11 months to complete the 5,400 long ton Town-class light cruiser Brisbane (25 Jan 1913-12 Dec 1916 [launched 30 Sept 1915]), and 6 years 8 months to complete Adelaide (20 Nov 1915-31 July 1922 [launched 27 July 1918]) - yes, Adelaide had delays due to parts etc being sunk by U-boats in transit from the UK and further delays from design changes during construction, but Brisbane had not had such delays - whereas the UK took an average of 2 years for the same class of ships.

Just looking at Brisbane, that's basically double the UK's build time - and you are talking about ships 3 times the size and more complex!

So in my original post I was considering that the Australians would NOT have even the first completed by the start of the WNT negotiations - and might not have even launched it yet!


So no, no backtracking involved at all.
 
So in my original post I was considering that the Australians would NOT have even the first completed by the start of the WNT negotiations - and might not have even launched it yet!

Well, then they won't have much problems with redesigning them to fit Washignton cruiser limits, aren't they?
 
Well, then they won't have much problems with redesigning them to fit Washignton cruiser limits, aren't they?
Which brings us back to the County design and Australia & Canberra of the Kent class. 10,000 tons & 8in guns.

I thought the object of the current proposal was to build something more powerful than a County - more displacement, bigger calibre main armament.
 
Well, then they won't have much problems with redesigning them to fit Washignton cruiser limits, aren't they?
As I said above - just downgrade their armament by replacing 9.2-inch guns with 7.5-inch or 8-inch ones.
Which brings us back to the County design and Australia & Canberra of the Kent class. 10,000 tons & 8in guns.
I thought the object of the current proposal was to build something more powerful than a County - more displacement, bigger calibre main armament.

Yes, something modern for the RAN but more powerful than the two "Treaty cruisers" they actually did get, for interwar service yet specially intended for the nation's eventual dire need in WW2, as seen in hindsight. BlackBat242 disbelieves that Australia could build Tiger cub type ships after the Armistice (crucial for incorporating the many lessons WW1 had for warship design—older-design ships would just be hapless targets like a surviving battlecruiser HMAS Australia) but before the Washington Naval Treaty took effect, and perhaps he's right. Dilandu says to cut back the main battery (and presumably the standard displacement), but I am unenthusiastic. The Tiger cubs aren't a big deal to me anyway.

So what else? An alternate-reality effort to mass-produce B-17s under license in Fishermans Bend, Melbourne before 1941, however useful that might have been, seems like a reach.
 
B-17 before 1941? = the B-17C/D (RAF Mk.I)

And we know how well they fared in the Philippines in late 1941 / early 1942, and in the hands of 90 squadron RAF in 1941.

The much modified B-17E ordered at the end of Aug 1940 didn't fly until 5 Sept 1941.

Edit - even the B-17C didn't fly until July 1940.
 
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This is all really fascinating, gents, but could we steer the discussion back to naval assets and ships, specifically focusing on the prospective makeup of the interwar RAN? It’d be great if we could also narrow it down to how we might retain or replace the capabilities and role of HMAS Australia as the flagship and key deterrent in Australia’s defence strategy during the interwar period.

Cheers!
 
While I am open to the opinion that the RAN's actual limited fleet of cruisers, destroyers, and corvettes was in fact their optimal choice for WW2, and while I think a mildly refitted extant Indefatigable-class battlecruiser would probably be sunk with great loss of life during the savage fighting of 1941-42, and while I believe Alexander Clarke's lengthy video about Tiger cubs for the WW1 Royal Navy is unpersuasive, I was taken with the thought that two or three Tiger cubs could serve valuably as speedy "pocket battleships" for interwar Australia, and not be subject to the Washington Naval Treaty (this thread had earlier discussed reasonable alternate realities which would have allowed the battlecruiser to survive the Treaty). 1635yankee's expressed belief that such modest warships as the Tiger cubs would be world-changing and Treaty-shattering is, er, debatable, to say no more. I will leave things at that. The cubs were just a thought: not a big deal to me.
There are sixth option - they may be downgraded in terms of guns to fit the limits. I.e. either re-armed with existing 7.5-inch/45 Mark VI guns, or their construction prolonged till the new 8-inch/50 Mark VIII gun would became available. This would basically solve the problem and also reduce their displacement somwehat. While they would still be bigger and better protected than WNT heavy cruisers, they would also be slower and less useful as scouts or trade protectors.

Relative to the above... What about a 'Tiger Cub'/ E series-esque ships that are restarted after their retention is confirmed by the WNT. Informed by war experience and the advent of the 'Atlantic Cruiser' concept that gave rise to the OTL Hawkins class, they are completed to a revised design armed with 12 x 8"/50 guns in 4 triple turrets. This gives Australia 1-2 fast, armoured cruisers that displace about 12-14,000 tons [standard], carry 6-ish" of belt armour, have the rough hull dimensions of an OTL County and machinery for 32 knots. Doing this puts significant firepower on a large, fast, capable vessel without reinventing obscure gun calibres or branching into territory that has been the preserve of 'capital ships' in the war just gone. Furthermore, it is somewhat in keeping with OTL proposals for an unbuilt 'Cockatoo Cruiser'.
Relative to ships produced before and after (incl. IJN heavies like the Mogami's and USN ships like the Clevelands and Baltimores), what does that give Australia interwar and, potentially, during WWII, assuming that the revised design is WNT-compliant.
 
Relative to the above... What about a 'Tiger Cub'/ E series-esque ships that are restarted after their retention is confirmed by the WNT. Informed by war experience and the advent of the 'Atlantic Cruiser' concept that gave rise to the OTL Hawkins class, they are completed to a revised design armed with 12 x 8"/50 guns in 4 triple turrets.
Hm. This would require to wait with work restart till at least 1924 - when the design of 8-inch/50 would be finalized - and probably a bit more, because development of triple mount would also took time. Considering the possible delays, it would push their completion till 1928-1930 at best.

Using the standard 8-inch duals, the ships could be completed by 1926-1927, since no new turret would needed to be designed.

And using the 7.5-inch/45, they could probably be completed by 1924-1925. The enlarged design of G3-class secondary turrets could probably be used.
 
B-17 before 1941? = the B-17C/D (RAF Mk.I)
And we know how well they fared in the Philippines in late 1941 / early 1942, and in the hands of 90 squadron RAF in 1941.
The much modified B-17E ordered at the end of Aug 1940 didn't fly until 5 Sept 1941.
Edit - even the B-17C didn't fly until July 1940.

As I said, likely too much of a stretch. And Oberon is calling us back to the main topic. But briefly: while a few dozen B-17Cs built under license at Fishermans Bend in 1940-41 would indeed have limitations against the Japanese onslaught, those planes would still be better than nothing, which was the alternative. (CAC Boomerangs didn't begin coming off Australian assembly lines until mid-1942. Only 14 USAAF B-17Ds escaped to Australia from the Philippines, of which 3 survived the subsequent Dutch East Indies campaign.) In real life, of course, Australia did win WW2 with what it had.
 
...It’d be great if we could also narrow it down to how we might retain... HMAS Australia as the flagship and key deterrent in Australia’s defence strategy during the interwar period.

As the founder of a thread about a counterfactual WW2 career of battlecruiser HMS Tiger, and having emphasized her wartime value there against considerable resistance, I believe I am among the most optimistic audience you could find for your own speculations, Oberon. But we have to be reasonable. His Majesty's Australian Ship Australia was a substantially smaller, slower, and less hit-tolerant vessel than Tiger, older and with a lighter broadside. And by all accounts there was little or no interest among the early 1920's Australian government or navy in retaining her, much less paying for conversion into an aircraft carrier. And even those here who believe, as I do not, that an expensive complete reconstruction of the unscuttled battlecruiser between the wars was a realistic possibility have seemed to conclude that it would have been better to jack up the flawed warship and build a battlecruiser of entirely new design under her. And even had that been done, the like-new ship could not have deterred Japan from its December 1941 onslaught.

Seen in hindsight, Australia bought a lemon in 1909. So let us allow the battlecruiser to rust in peace on the seafloor.

Foisting a Courageous-class battlecruiser, an R-class battleship, or other junk on the Royal Australian Navy would not help that service in its time of desperate need. And as the RAN's own official history noted, waiting until 1939 to design and build appropriate new battleships meant that this prospective effort, however valuable it would have been, was overtaken by events.
 
As I said, likely too much of a stretch. And Oberon is calling us back to the main topic. But briefly: while a few dozen B-17Cs built under license at Fishermans Bend in 1940-41 would indeed have limitations against the Japanese onslaught, those planes would still be better than nothing, which was the alternative. (CAC Boomerangs didn't begin coming off Australian assembly lines until mid-1942. Only 14 USAAF B-17Ds escaped to Australia from the Philippines, of which 3 survived the subsequent Dutch East Indies campaign.) In real life, of course, Australia did win WW2 with what it had.
With all respect, but it's highly unlikely. USN was paranoid about exporting much less advanced technology than B-17; it's almost out of question that they would sell B-17 and next to impossible that they would sell the license to build more. Not to mention, that without previous experience it would took years for Australian to build a four-engine bomber.

Most likely, that Australians would start with two-engine bomber somewhere in mid-1930s. A license production of one of British types - like Vickers Wellington, HP Hampden, AW Whitley or Britsol Blenheim - seems to be the most probable choice. Especially Wellington, since she have a greater range, which is important on Pacific.
 
Relative to the above... What about a 'Tiger Cub'/ E series-esque ships that are restarted after their retention is confirmed by the WNT. Informed by war experience and the advent of the 'Atlantic Cruiser' concept that gave rise to the OTL Hawkins class, they are completed to a revised design armed with 12 x 8"/50 guns in 4 triple turrets. This gives Australia 1-2 fast, armoured cruisers that displace about 12-14,000 tons [standard], carry 6-ish" of belt armour, have the rough hull dimensions of an OTL County and machinery for 32 knots. Doing this puts significant firepower on a large, fast, capable vessel without reinventing obscure gun calibres or branching into territory that has been the preserve of 'capital ships' in the war just gone. Furthermore, it is somewhat in keeping with OTL proposals for an unbuilt 'Cockatoo Cruiser'.
Relative to ships produced before and after (incl. IJN heavies like the Mogami's and USN ships like the Clevelands and Baltimores), what does that give Australia interwar and, potentially, during WWII, assuming that the revised design is WNT-compliant.

As you saw, BlackBat vehemently disbelieves that Down Under could build such ships after the Armistice (necessary to include WW1 combat experience in the design) but before the signed Washington Naval Treaty took effect (necessary for post-Treaty legality). As for modifying the Treaty terms, the British proposal of a 10,000-ton standard displacement limit on non-capital ships was accepted by the other parties at the Washington Naval Conference with little argument. So an alternate-reality proposal of 12kt, or whatever, might also have been accepted. Yet that would defeat the unspoken intention of the chosen 10k number—to allow the RN's recent Hawkins-class cruisers but nothing larger. So a higher number would disadvantage the UK, and therefore such a change is implausible.

The Axis-to-be navies got around the limit by increasingly brazen cheating. Even the big Admiral Hipper-class cruisers were proclaimed with a straight face to be of 10kt standard displacement. That Australia would deceive like this is also implausible.

With the Treaty disallowing post-Treaty >10kt Tiger cub type ships without unlikely revision to its terms; with little enthusiasm for the Indefatigable-class battlecruiser (though Dilandu wanted two!); with low interest in submarines; and with a prewar buildup of modern warplanes being too much of a reach beyond what was historically tenable; we seem to be stuck with mere tweaks (such as the Cockatoos, etc.) to the County-class cruiser design that the Royal Australian Navy acquired two of in real life. Dilandu has been puttering around with such tweaks. But the effort hardly seems worthwhile.

A terrible war is coming. That would have taken abnormal Ferdinand Foch-level prescience to see in the early 1920s just after the "war to end all wars". But by the late 1930s it was becoming clear to all. Australia was in trouble.
 
with little enthusiasm for the Indefatigable-class battlecruiser (though Dilandu wanted two!)
To clarify: I noted that if Australia got two ships (HMAS Australia and HMNZS New Zealand), then their retaining and large-scale refit would make much more sence than just for one unit. Because, well, two battlecruisers, even old, are a force that would require substantially more efforts to neutralize.
 
To clarify: I noted that if Australia got two ships (HMAS Australia and HMNZS New Zealand), then their retaining and large-scale refit would make much more sence than just for one unit. Because, well, two battlecruisers, even old, are a force that would require substantially more efforts to neutralize.

I had understood you fine, Dilandu. Since there was no will in early-1920s Australia to fund and crew just one Indefatigable-class battlecruiser, your claim that two would be more economical is quixotic. And to revise your sentence: Because two Indefatigable-class battlecruisers are a force that would result in doubling the young men killed when the ships sank or exploded. Thumbs down.
 
I had understood you fine, Dilandu. Since there was no will in early-1920s Australia to fund and crew just one Indefatigable-class battlecruiser, your claim that two would be more economical is quixotic.
Incorrect. My point wasn't that it would be economical. My point was, that it would better justify spending on their major refit than for just one ship.
 
To elaborate upon the "one ship, two ship" matter: as a single battlecruiser, HMAS Australia isn't capable of doing much. While it's possible to refit her enough to be capable of fighting Kongo-class battlecruisers or modern heavy cruisers on even terms, it's just not very practical. Japanese would not send just a single ship to due with HMAS Australia; they would send at least a division (simply because it's the smallest unit they could detach) of battlecruisers/heavy cruisers. Which would have a significant advantave over lone Australian ship, while not distracting much of Japanese resources.

But if we assume that RAN have two refitted battlecruisers - HMAS Australia and HMNZS New Zealand, for example - the situation changes drastically. To neutralize them for sure, just a pair of Kongo-class would not be enough. Japanese would be forced to send either all four Kongo-class (40% of their total capital ships), or at least the same number or more of heavy cruisers (30% of their total heavy cruiser force). Which would represent a non-indignificant drain of their total capabilities.
 
To elaborate upon the "one ship, two ship" matter: as a single battlecruiser, HMAS Australia isn't capable of doing much. While it's possible to refit her enough to be capable of fighting Kongo-class battlecruisers or modern heavy cruisers on even terms, it's just not very practical. Japanese would not send just a single ship to due with HMAS Australia; they would send at least a division (simply because it's the smallest unit they could detach) of battlecruisers/heavy cruisers. Which would have a significant advantave over lone Australian ship, while not distracting much of Japanese resources.
But if we assume that RAN have two refitted battlecruisers - HMAS Australia and HMNZS New Zealand, for example - the situation changes drastically. To neutralize them for sure, just a pair of Kongo-class would not be enough. Japanese would be forced to send either all four Kongo-class (40% of their total capital ships), or at least the same number or more of heavy cruisers (30% of their total heavy cruiser force). Which would represent a non-indignificant drain of their total capabilities.

No. I said earlier that in desperate times, every little bit can help. But let's review the facts. Your two battlecruisers would have a combined broadside of 13,664 lbs in 1941 (sixteen Mark VIIa Greenboy AP shells). Force Z's HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse had a broadside more than double that: 27,528 lbs. After Force Z's sortie became known, Kongo-class fast battleships were being positioned to intercept. But the force was sunk in two hours by IJN land-based bombers, despite maneuvering at 28+ knots. Repulse was an aging 1915 design, but Prince of Wales featured the RN's latest subdivision, deck armor, and torpedo protection, to no avail. Your two 1908-design warships would be substantially slower and less protected: sitting ducks.

If your two battlecruisers somehow avoided air attack and tried to participate in one of the early-1942 night actions around Indonesia, they would be slow enough so that Japan would not have to bother the busy Kongos. Instead, one Fuso- or Ise-class battleship (broadside 17,820 lbs), otherwise unoccupied during that period, could accompany the Japanese force, well-trained in night fighting as the ABDA force was not. Sister ship HMS Indefatigable was blown in half at Jutland, killing almost her entire crew, after just four or five hits by German 283mm shells, each of which was less than half the weight of the Japanese 14" shell of 1942.

To quote your January self, "too slow, too weak, too vulnerable". You're not helping Australia, Dilandu. You're just giving them more casualties.

P.S. Remember that battlecruiser New Zealand never was "HMNZS"; see post #42 above.
 
To quote your January self, "too slow, too weak, too vulnerable". You're not helping Australia, Dilandu. You're just giving them more casualties.
Okay, you apparently didn't grasp what am I trying to explain. I was not talking about helping Australia. I was talking about relative value of two ships versus one being more than just doubling the numbers.

My whole point was to explain, why I consider the difference between one aging battlecruiser & two aging battlecruisers to be significant enough to validate large scale refit in second case - but not in the first. I.e. why one battlecruiser have no lasting value and should be better replaced by heavy cruisers - but two are other thing, that required a different consideration. Because they would require a superior numbers send against them, thus working as "mathematical deterrence". Japanese Navy could neither allow to send too much of its limited number of capital ships away from primary missions, nor could it allow to fight the opponent on even terms (because even terms means risking losses that could be avoided). The idea is to play between those two assumptions.
 
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Okay, you apparently didn't grasp what am I trying to explain. I was not talking about helping Australia. I was talking about relative value of two ships versus one being more than just doubling the numbers.
My whole point was to explain, why I consider the difference between one aging battlecruiser & two aging battlecruisers to be significant enough to validate large scale refit in second case - but not in the first. I.e. why one battlecruiser have no lasting value and should be better replaced by heavy cruisers - but two are other thing, that required a different consideration. Because they would require a superior numbers send against them, thus working as "mathematical deterrence". Japanese Navy could neither allow to send too much of its limited number of capital ships away from primary missions, nor could it allow to fight the opponent on even terms (because even terms means risking losses that could be avoided). The idea is to play between those two assumptions.

Hold on: I have had to work to overcome EwenS's and Scott Kenny's forceful objections to Oberon's and my belief that battlecruiser HMAS Australia could in principle have remained in service until WW2 with periodic mild refits, had the will been present. How are you going to get two battlecruisers, with more extensive reconstructions, past those same objections?
 
Hold on: I have had to work to overcome EwenS's and Scott Kenny's forceful objections to Oberon's and my belief that battlecruiser HMAS Australia could in principle have remained in service until WW2 with periodic mild refits, had the will been present. How are you going to get two battlecruisers, with more extensive reconstructions, past those same objections?
He's not wrong, though. The two BCs would be significantly more valuable than just 1. Just not enough more valuable to be worth the costs.
 
I made some calculations about Australian naval deterrence. Assuming that:

* Australia is not the primary Japanese goal, and Japan would not be willing to concentrate all its forces on Australia alone, as long as there are other enemies to fight;
* Japanese would be reluctant to assign less than superior forces to seondary goals, fearing the possible losses linked to "even force" situation;
* Australia main strategy would be to hamper Japanese moves into Australia direction, forcing Japanese to either send superior forces to secondary objecives, or to risk a potential losses;
* Australian Navy would not oppose clearly superior Japanese force, avoiding such combat;

Taking into account that, I suggest that the requred deterrence for Australia could be achieved by four (4) battlecruisers and four (4) heavy cruisers.

Such force would be big enough to ensure, that Japanese could not counter it by merely assigning their Kongo-class ships or a number of heavy cruisers. They would be forced to support their operstions by either useing their slow dreadnoughts in addition to Kongo's (which would be a tactical hindrance), or adding Nagato-class battleships for secondary theater (which they very reluctant to do), or to deploy with Kongo's a majority of their heavy cruiser force. In each scenario, the resource drain would be significant. So as long as Japanese have bigger threats to fight, they likely would be deterred from advancing against Australia.

Bear in mind, that it's just a theoretical calculation - I don't know, how Australia could obtain four battlecruisers. :)
 
Without the benefit of hindsight and what happened historically in WW2, which direction is it in the 1920s and 1930s that the Japanese threat to Australia is expected to come from in this scenario?

The broad expanse of the Pacific off Australia's East coast?
Through the South China Sea or Dutch East Indies?

Where exactly do you intend that any battle between the IJN and the RAN will actually take place in this timeframe?

Is it intended to augment the RN China Station or fight its own war?
 
Without the benefit of hindsight and what happened historically in WW2, which direction is it in the 1920s and 1930s that the Japanese threat to Australia is expected to come from in this scenario?

The broad expanse of the Pacific off Australia's East coast?
Through the South China Sea or Dutch East Indies?

Where exactly do you intend that any battle between the IJN and the RAN will actually take place in this timeframe?

Is it intended to augment the RN China Station or fight its own war?
I don’t believe the RAN has ever seriously considered operating independently. Before December 1941, Great Britain was its strategic guarantor; after Pearl Harbor, the fall of Singapore, and the Royal Navy’s temporary withdrawal from the Far East, that role shifted to the United States.

In terms of immediate national defence, the RAN’s primary focus has always been securing continental Australia’s northern approaches—essentially, our own ‘First Island Chain.’ This extends from the Bay of Bengal in the west, through the Indonesian Archipelago, Papua New Guinea, New Britain, and eastward to the Solomons, Fiji, and New Caledonia.

Beyond that core task, cooperation with the Royal Navy—whether through the old 'China Station' or the 'Eastern Fleet'—was the logical course of action in countering any threats in the Southwest Pacific. However, pre-war contingency planning also factored in strategic collaboration with the US Navy, albeit largely through the agency of the RN rather than a direct RAN-USN relationship. Interwar strategic assessments reflected this, as British planners increasingly recognised that countering the Japanese would require US cooperation, particularly as the Euro-Atlantic security situation deteriorated during the 30s and the envisioned ‘Singapore Strategy’ failed to materialise as originally conceived.

By late 1941, efforts were underway to coordinate an Allied response to Japanese adventurism, though these ultimately proved ineffective. The ill-fated ADBA (American-Dutch-British-Australian) Command was one such attempt. Another was the mission of Admiral Sir Tom Phillips, C-in-C Eastern Fleet, to Manila on Dec 7/8, 1941, for discussions with Gen. Macarthur and USN leaders—immediately before returning to Singapore to lead the doomed sortie of Force Z. HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse were sunk two days later on 10 December 1941 starting the collapse of the house of cards which was the British position in the Far-East by that point.

Convoy protection across the Indian Ocean had long been a joint RN-RAN responsibility, as seen in both World Wars. Meanwhile, escort duties along Australia's western coastline and through the Dutch East Indies to Singapore were primarily an RAN tasking south of the DEI, with RN forces taking over at Sunda Strait. A notable example of this operational pattern was the lead-up to the Sydney-Kormoran battle on 19 November 1941, when HMAS Sydney handed off the troop transport SS Zealandia to HMS Durban at Sunda before turning south toward Fremantle—later encountering Kormoran with mutually destructive results.

In short, considering the RAN’s role before 7 December 1941 without accounting for its place within the broader British Commonwealth defence framework is, in my view, an incomplete exercise. The RAN has never been a stand-alone force [it isn't today] but an integral part of a larger coalition presence in the Indo-Pacific, structured to act in concert with [1st] British and, increasingly [post-1941], American forces in both peacetime planning and wartime contingencies. In considering a RAN 'deterrent' capability [whether through the operation of a capital ship - like HMAS Australia - or a force of heavy/armoured cruisers - such as the theoretical 'Tiger Cubs' or the OTL Australia [II] & Canberra - as had been discussed herein], this reality is an inseparable part of the discourse.
 
I don’t believe the RAN has ever seriously considered operating independently. Before December 1941, Great Britain was its strategic guarantor; after Pearl Harbor, the fall of Singapore, and the Royal Navy’s temporary withdrawal from the Far East, that role shifted to the United States...
In short, considering the RAN’s role before 7 December 1941 without accounting for its place within the broader British Commonwealth defence framework is, in my view, an incomplete exercise. The RAN has never been a stand-alone force [it isn't today] but an integral part of a larger coalition presence in the Indo-Pacific, structured to act in concert with [1st] British and, increasingly [post-1941], American forces in both peacetime planning and wartime contingencies...

Australia (New Zealand too) did fight in close concert with British forces in North Africa and in Malaya/Singapore, and later in close concert with American forces in the Pacific. I don't believe there is anything Australia could have done differently in the 1920s and 30s that would have deterred Hitler, Mussolini, or Tojo from their onslaughts. Minor tweaks to the two heavy cruisers the RAN actually had in 1939 (such as building two Cockatoos instead) would hardly be world-shaking. Looks like (accidentally or not) Australia was equipped for WW2 about as well as it realistically could have been.

Oberon, you started this interesting thread, and have read everybody's comments, but you haven't yet told us what you yourself think about the topic, "could HMAS Australia have usefully been saved from scrapping [sic] in 1924?"

As discussed earlier, while I think the country made the correct choice, and certainly an understandable choice, to delete the battlecruiser in 1924, and while I think an expensive total reconstruction of her, like Italy and Japan gave their older capital ships, in the interwar period was out of the question (and considering the inherent limitations of the Indefatigable class wouldn't have been a worthwhile investment anyway), HMAS Australia could have served until WW2 with occasional modest refits had the will been present, and had the old ship somehow survived the ferocious fighting of 1942, her 12" guns could have usefully provided fire support for Australian Army units in 1943-45, doing her duty. Others here have disagreed. What do you think, Oberon?
 
A thought, convert her into a seaplane carrier and depot ship, maybe a mother ship for torpedo boats.

An off-topic idea, based on another Alexander Clarke video, instead of doing anything with Australia and instead of buying the three modified Leanders, modernise all four Town Class Cruisers.

Basically rebuild them as destroyer leaders in the 1930s, the latest destroyer machinery, 4.7" twins, maybe a couple of 4" twins, and 21" torpedoes. Keep Albatross and the two Oberons with the money saved, and reap the benefits of an upsized, upskilled shipbuilding workforce.

This workforce could maybe have completed all the originally planned eight Tribal class destroyers, maybe even following them with a modified Dido.
 

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