If you believe Wikipedia, the J58 bypass ratio with the bleeds open at cruise conditions was approximately 0.25, with a significant portion of the bypass bleed air being used for cooling the AB liner and not available for combustion. As I said, a low bypass single shaft turbofan with the bypass bleeds openI would disagree on the J58 being called a very low bypass engine. When at M3+ it is acting with a higher bypass ratio than most fighter jet engines. All that bleed bypass air is being dumped into the afterburner.
There is already a lot of virtual training happening and if you consider that most pilots never fire an AAM or cruise missile until combat this won't be too different.If the CCA is being treated as an attritable item, I suppose that it makes sense that their missions would be practiced in simulators rather than being expended in exercises, but I have to wonder what the fidelity of that would be, especially in LFE where I've sometimes seen "magic fairy dust" taken too far.
Everyone knows that aeroplanes get faster as they get older...I think I found a candidate for my ignore list.
It probably won't be the greatest dogfighter at very low speed. But it is very easy to sustain 9G at high cruising speeds.
at the risk piling on yet again ...SecAF has an unenviable position as the time to mature emerging technologies may be lengthening and the risk to committing to something which will be obsolete on arrival is an issue.THIS is most likely representative of what USAF cannot afford in large numbers...
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It will definitely be 9G rated. The problem is to maintain the same turning radius as the speed increases you need to pull more G. The SR-71 took a full country to turn around when at top speed.As for any idea of sustained 9G turns, why? Avoiding the merge needs at most a 90-180 degree turn, more than that, and you're turning back into your pursuer.
-expectations on DEW and what it can do even from a simple pod ie craft that are extremely difficult to shoot down and thus guaranteeing air superiority
Why would I want to pull 9g's when I could simply ask my unmanned wingman or another flocking or swarming platform to do that? Platforms even smaller than me, and there for easier, cheaper, and lighter to engineer such a capability into.It will definitely be 9G rated.
That would require a mach 2 supercruise capable loyal wingman drone that could also penetrate 1,000nm. That would probably cost as much as the F-35.Why would I want to pull 9g's when I could simply ask my unmanned wingman or another flocking or swarming platform to do that?
Oh, hey, looks like we're closer to my "one manned plane per entire strike package" intended destination than anyone thought!He also said that studies and experiments so far indicate that pilots of crewed fighters will likely be able to control many more CCAs than originally thought.
I'm starting to suspect that the records broken by the demonstrators were engineering type, like quickest delivery of flight rated hardware or something like that.As for demonstrator record breaking, while the discussion has taught me a lot about trade offs in engine design, I think the assumption that speed records were broken seems misguided: there are any number of very minor performance records the quote might have referred to. And in any case the demonstrator might no longer be especially representative of the program’s end product.
The SR-71 is also limited to 3.5 gees while subsonic and 1.25 gees while at mach 3... So I'm not expecting a plane to be pulling 9 gees while supersonic.It will definitely be 9G rated. The problem is to maintain the same turning radius as the speed increases you need to pull more G. The SR-71 took a full country to turn around when at top speed.
I think this patch answer some questionsNGAD Combined Test Force patch, new.
It is impossible to do air dominance mission with out supersonic capability, how can you? , intercept, dogfight ,escape, identify , pursuit plane with out supersonic dash ? How can you catch and make visual identification like they do with the bear Bomber or similar on air policy mission with poor subsonic CCA ? Surley sooner the stealth advantage will be compromise by new detector and sensor, and for the IR detection each motor , engine , turbine make heat so you must fly high , fast and staying on the combat zone the less time possible to survive. CCA make IR source too, a little or a big IR picture make no difference when you are detected, enemy see you.The fact that the Incr1 CCAs are all completely subsonic I think clearly indicates that high speed is not where this is going. And I can think of two good reasons: cost and IR detection. If the U.S. can orbit a constellation of LEO and MEO satellites capable of detecting hypersonic gliders, then so can the PRC in a relatively close time frame. A highly supersonic F-111 platform is going to be a cooler but also much larger target, and any steady use of afterburners to achieve speed is also going to be quite noticeable. Even F-22 levels of supercruise may be problematic, but in any case I think the F-22 represents the practical ceiling of performance one can achieve without easy IR detection.
Flip the script: how long would a Mach 2-3 NGAD last if it ran headlong into a crowd of a dozen CCAs with a networked IRST capability? And the dozen UCAVs would be a lot less expensive. Again, the USAF can expect the PLA to be right behind it in aircraft development cycles.
It's difficult to dogfight without enough excess power that the airframe can go supersonic. Or to dodge missiles.The fact that the Incr1 CCAs are all completely subsonic I think clearly indicates that high speed is not where this is going. And I can think of two good reasons: cost and IR detection. If the U.S. can orbit a constellation of LEO and MEO satellites capable of detecting hypersonic gliders, then so can the PRC in a relatively close time frame. A highly supersonic F-111 platform is going to be a cooler but also much larger target, and any steady use of afterburners to achieve speed is also going to be quite noticeable. Even F-22 levels of supercruise may be problematic, but in any case I think the F-22 represents the practical ceiling of performance one can achieve without easy IR detection.
Well, the Blackbird shows that it's very difficult to intercept a high-flying, high Mach-2+ airframe. So do the recon MiG-25/31s.Flip the script: how long would a Mach 2-3 NGAD last if it ran headlong into a crowd of a dozen CCAs with a networked IRST capability? And the dozen UCAVs would be a lot less expensive. Again, the USAF can expect the PLA to be right behind it in aircraft development cycles.
I think there are enough examples of subsonic dogfighters that that statement doesn't really hold up.It's difficult to dogfight without enough excess power that the airframe can go supersonic. Or to dodge missiles.
All indications are that Incement Two will follow the path of increment One. As already posted LM seems pretty convinced they shouldn't gold plate their Increment Two proposal and the USAF has been clear that cost will be the ultimate governor. Supersonic means cost, deeper magazines means cost, more capable sensors means cost.I think that the Increment 1 CCAs are subsonic for no other reason than because that's cheap, and the following increments of CCAs will have performance much closer to that of the NGAD. (Similar range/speed)
None of those airframes fly in an environment where modern AAMs are now being used. Even in Ukraine the MiG-31s are launching killjoys from a long way off. They certainly wouldn't be operating within range of modern SAMs nor within the potential envelopes of Meteor or advanced Chinese AAMs. I'd also put my money on the SM-6 defeating any attempt by those three looking to evade.Well, the Blackbird shows that it's very difficult to intercept a high-flying, high Mach-2+ airframe. So do the recon MiG-25/31s.
So even if they detect the plane (which is very likely, yes), it's still unlikely to be shot down.
I think that the Increment 1 CCAs are subsonic for no other reason than because that's cheap, and the following increments of CCAs will have performance much closer to that of the NGAD. (Similar range/speed)
That is the model I also think will play out. Future exercises will flesh these out but I expect CCA orbits aligned with unmanned tankers pushed forward and the CCAs are picked up along the way or directed to locations via the BMS and held there until required.I mentioned this in another thread, but it's entirely possible that PCA could be supercruising while CCAs could be subsonic. In recent wargames, BLUEFOR players overwhelmingly preferred cheap and expendable CCAs in a Taiwan scenario, distributed without runways in an ACE format within the 1IC, working in conjuction with exquisite 5th-gen assets like F-22 and F-35.
Imagine an exquisite VLO PCA with Mach 2+ supercruise and 1,000+ NM range screaming in from Okinawa or from Guam with mid-air refueling, meeting up with cheap CCAs in the area.
In the wargames, participants didn't opt for a single exquisite CCA even once, but they did employ F-22 to its fullest extent.
It is impossible to do air dominance mission with out supersonic capability, how can you? , intercept, dogfight ,escape, identify , pursuit plane with out supersonic dash ? How can you catch and make visual identification like they do with the bear Bomber or similar on air policy mission with poor subsonic CCA ? Surley sooner the stealth advantage will be compromise by new detector and sensor, and for the IR detection each motor , engine , turbine make heat so you must fly high , fast and staying on the combat zone the less time possible to survive. CCA make IR source too, a little or a big IR picture make no difference when you are detected, enemy see you.
Almost all those subsonic dogfighters have good specific excess power for their time. Not sure if you're including the A-10, which wins a dogfight in the first circle (or gets blown out of the sky), because of how fast it can pull a 180 at relatively low gees (small turning radius), despite the abysmal power-to-weight ratio.I think there are enough examples of subsonic dogfighters that that statement doesn't really hold up.
I saw that report too, but I still think that only works with runway-independent CCAs.I mentioned this in another thread, but it's entirely possible that PCA could be supercruising while CCAs could be subsonic. In recent wargames, BLUEFOR players overwhelmingly preferred cheap and expendable CCAs in a Taiwan scenario, distributed without runways in an ACE format within the 1IC, working in conjuction with exquisite 5th-gen assets like F-22 and F-35.
Imagine an exquisite VLO PCA with Mach 2+ supercruise and 1,000+ NM range screaming in from Okinawa or from Guam with mid-air refueling, meeting up with cheap CCAs in the area.
In the wargames, participants didn't opt for a single exquisite CCA even once, but they did employ F-22 to its fullest extent.
I'm generally expecting Hi-PCA Lo-CCA, but the Navy CCAs will definitely be spicier than the USAF CCAs due to them using the same "airfields" as the FAXX.On the other hand, this CONOPS might not be relevant in every theater, so an exquisite PCA might require an exquisite CCA... and we know the airforce has been making noises about wanting a much cheaper PCA... but until major production contracts are signed, we can keep our minds open. Hi-PCA Lo-CCA is possible.
I'm kinda thinking that the supercruise speed may be higher than the F-22, but the whole airframe would be optimized to cruise that fast. Max range at Mach 2 or whatever the magic speed is. Not as fast as a Blackbird, but greater range supersonic than subsonic.I did not state completely subsonic; my indicated that current supercruise of F-22 was likely the ceiling of any NGAD aircraft. I think the people here predicting Mach 3 performance are quite incorrect, though supersonic is almost certain - if subsonic were workable one could simply adopt B-21. But I think it is clear that would not be a good A2A fire platform, even if its sensors and other systems could help with such missions.
I'm generally expecting Hi-PCA Lo-CCA, but the Navy CCAs will definitely be spicier than the USAF CCAs due to them using the same "airfields" as the FAXX.
I think that the Navy is on the better way than USAF in air dominance , Kendall become the big lover of CCA I hope it will change with the new admininstration, CCA is a waste of money , they are reusable cruise missile , they are no realy stealth or fast , it would be better and cheaper to build low cost expendable missile in a big quantity.The Navy is not yet all in on CCAs. Instead they are going with putting all their capabilities in the manned aircraft. The Navy’s relationship with carrier borne UAVs is still very immature.
Subsonic dogfight , and how you do to intercept a plane flying mach 1 at 15000 m at 150 kms of distance with a subsonic speed ? Because before shooting a missile you must make a visual identification ? How you do with your speed of mach 0.9 ?I think there are enough examples of subsonic dogfighters that that statement doesn't really hold up.
All indications are that Incement Two will follow the path of increment One. As already posted LM seems pretty convinced they shouldn't gold plate their Increment Two proposal and the USAF has been clear that cost will be the ultimate governor. Supersonic means cost, deeper magazines means cost, more capable sensors means cost.
None of those airframes fly in an environment where modern AAMs are now being used. Even in Ukraine the MiG-31s are launching killjoys from a long way off. They certainly wouldn't be operating within range of modern SAMs nor within the potential envelopes of Meteor or advanced Chinese AAMs. I'd also put my money on the SM-6 defeating any attempt by those three looking to evade.
Are you referring to a tail chase?Subsonic dogfight , and how you do to intercept a plane flying mach 1 at 15000 m at 150 kms of distance with a subsonic speed ?
Why do you need a visual identification? In a platform such as the F-35 the parameters being collected by the sensors are more than capable of threat identification before visual range. 6th will only improve on that.Because before shooting a missile you must make a visual identification ?
You need to intercept and escort , you can't do that with subsonic CCA, the time to go on combat zone, if you take 3 hours to arrive on the zone a lot of threat will have move to another place, and how you fight if your ennemy have a big fleet of 5/6 th gen supersonic fleet like the J-20 or J-35 you realy think you will win the battle with your no stealth subsonic CCA ?Are you referring to a tail chase?
Why do you need a visual identification? In a platform such as the F-35 the parameters being collected by the sensors are more than capable of threat identification before visual range. 6th will only improve on that.
True, but I expect that they will come around, just because it means you can fly a riskier profile without risking the pilot(s).The Navy is not yet all in on CCAs. Instead they are going with putting all their capabilities in the manned aircraft. The Navy’s relationship with carrier borne UAVs is still very immature.
You need to intercept and escort , you can't do that with subsonic CCA, the time to go on combat zone, if you take 3 hours to arrive on the zone a lot of threat will have move to another place, and how you fight if your ennemy have a big fleet of 5/6 th gen supersonic fleet like the J-20 or J-35 you realy think you will win the battle with your no stealth subsonic CCA ?
CCA is a non sense I hope new administration kill it, invest in F-35 block 4 , NGAD fighter , B-21, Kendall fall in love of the CCA like a child in front of a new toy, " woaw a R2D2 plane " but it is realy not the solution in the time of space weapon, 5/6 th gen Chinese fighter and hypersonic vehicle and missile.Subsonic is perfectly workable for offense, when the opponent is forced to come to it. Even defensely, a favorable starting position would solve the problem. Moreover i doubt CCAs remain subsonic: USAF just wants something in the air to experiment with as soon as possible.
I also question whether 5th gen can super cruise for extended times; I would think it cuts down on range.
The CCA does not need to be really stealthy; it just needs to be able to get within BVR envelope of a target. More over CCA will probably be used in large numbers with other unmanned systems to thin out opponent AAMs. Image a group of four CCAs carrying a pair each of AAMs and MALD-N type decoys under direct control. That’s a swarm of a dozen targets, four of which can shoot back, and any kill of an opponent front line fighter pays for cost of the whole formation. A minimum that’s 1-2 dozen AAMs the enemy does not have, which is going to mission kill a fair number of fighters.
They were cheap. The technology just wasn't quite mature enough to overcome the inertia. Especially the navigation. It's demoralizing to lose your unmanned spy or EW aircraft over China because the nav failed and it ran out of fuel off-course and deployed the chutes.Well Vietnam tells us that they did good, were valuable but cost a lot
Not sure you are right here. They cost a lot because they did request a lot of manpower and supporting assets for a narrow set of missions. For example, it was often less expensive and more reliable to send a recce Voodoo than a 147 for a post strike as Tankers and CSAR were already up.They were cheap. The technology just wasn't quite mature enough to overcome the inertia. Especially the navigation. It's demoralizing to lose your unmanned spy or EW aircraft over China because the nav failed and it ran out of fuel off-course and deployed the chutes.
They also didn't try arming them until the late 70's, so it's not an apples to apple comparison of the RPV -to- CCA.
The use-case has always been for areas you did not want to send additional manned aircraft. Like the over flights of China and Laos or heavily defended areas of the North. Or as EW support for a strike package. Or ELINT as Ferrets.For example, it was often less expensive and more reliable to send a recce Voodoo than a 147 for a post strike as Tankers and CSAR were already up.
No, it was early 70's, but the US steadfastly refused to consider arming them in service, despite numerous proposals from Ryan. Eventually the Israelis were the first to arm them. In the late 70's, almost a decade after Ryan trailed the ability for TAC.Also, Ryan arming the 147 series was early 1960´s if my mem stands right
The use-case has always been for areas you did not want to send additional manned aircraft.
No, it was early 70's, but the US steadfastly refused to consider arming them in service, despite numerous proposals from Ryan. Eventually the Israelis were the first to arm them. In the late 70's, almost a decade after Ryan trailed the ability for TAC.
Right. They didn't want to use manned aircraft as a ferret up North or "downtown".Firebees were used as live bait against SA-2 and SA-3 batteries to get ELINT on their radars.
CCA is a non sense I hope new administration kill it, invest in F-35 block 4 , NGAD fighter , B-21, Kendall fall in love of the CCA like a child in front of a new toy, " woaw a R2D2 plane " but it is realy not the solution in the time of space weapon, 5/6 th gen Chinese fighter and hypersonic vehicle and missile.