USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

[quellish]

Now you are contradicting yourself.

Your link just said they flew a full-scale prototype. The title of your link:

I would suggest reading the article:

“We’ve already built and flown a full-scale flight demonstrator in the real world, and we broke records in doing it,” Will Roper told Defense News in an exclusive interview ahead of the Air Force Association’s Air, Space and Cyber Conference. “We are ready to go and build the next-generation aircraft in a way that has never happened before.”

 

[RJMAZ]

I would suggest reading the article:

The link has the word demonstrator twice and the word prototype seven times.

With the digital design software they no longer need to create demonstrators or scaled models. They can model and simulate all of this with software. The full-scale prototype will then only need minor tweaks to go into low scale production.

The new Skunk Works advanced manufacturing facility is optimised for low rate production. Or as I like to call it full-scale prototype production. Lockheed recently hired 2000 staff to work at this new facility. All signs point to NGAD being produced at a rate of around one aircraft per month.

We will see in the next 12 months when there is still no NGAD contract points to it staying black.

Or if NGAD is awarded to Lockheed and they rapidly have a pair of production aircraft flying this points to them already being in production right now.

 

[quellish]

The link has the word demonstrator twice and the word prototype seven times.

And yet the source they quote (Roper) very specifically says demonstrator.

With the digital design software they no longer need to create demonstrators or scaled models. They can model and simulate all of this with software. The full-scale prototype will then only need minor tweaks to go into low scale production.

That would make validating the software models difficult. But it would also remove all need for the Groom Lake and RATSCAT facilities, which would be a win! Let's close them today and bet on the design software!

The new Skunk Works advanced manufacturing facility is optimised for low rate production. Or as I like to call it full-scale prototype production. Lockheed recently hired 2000 staff to work at this new facility. All signs point to NGAD being produced at a rate of around one aircraft per month.

It's not "full scale prototype production". It's low rate production - producing small quantities of things using manufacturing processes that do not scale up well, like 3D printing. That facility is being used for things like Speed Racer production.

We will see in the next 12 months when there is still no NGAD contract points to it staying black.

There are multiple NGAD contracts right now, that have been awarded in the past year, so I am not sure what you are referring to.

 

[aim9xray]

The link has the word demonstrator twice and the word prototype seven times.

Pedantically, and specifically, Valerie Insinna (the writer), used the word prototype seven times, and demonstrator once.

The source, Dr. Will Roper was quoted using the word prototype zero times and demonstrator once.

I would tend to go with the interviewee as the subject matter expert, but hey, that's just me.

 

[CV12Hornet]

What threats is it meant to be defending the fleet from? And which of these require supersonic performance?

It's not going to be much use against DF-21D from land/ship or H-6s launching ASBMs from 1,000nm away. So is it mostly just going to be doing outer layer cruise missile defence before they get to SM-6 range?

There are more aircraft threats than just H-6 with ASBMs. A majority of Chinese H-6s are going to be cruise missile carriers with YJ-12s for the foreseeable future, and YJ-12s don't have quite enough range to keep their launch platforms out of range of the CAP fighters. And much Chinese maritime strike capability still rests on fighters, quite a few of which still have to rely on even shorter-range missiles than the YJ-12.

 

[quellish]

"Take the Red Pill: Disruptive Agility For a Disruptive World."

View: https://youtu.be/bhngHlHjuEQ?si=gSKWmmGoLahO6lg5&t=2345

 

[paralay]

Do you feel that advances in composite materials could counter this?

I am not aware of the characteristics of modern composite materials. I assume that their heat transfer is worse than that of metals, but this is not accurate

This doesn't mean NGAD will be flying at Mach 3.5 during combat but it was simply a demonstration. NGAD flying it's entire mission supercruising at Mach 2 is already impressive. It will be very hard to intercept or shoot down once you add the low radar cross section.

The fact is that since the seventies, American military aviation has deliberately reduced the requirements for maximum speed. I do not know how this is justified, probably there is logic in this.
Flying at a speed of more than M = 2.1 forces the use of an adjustable air intake, which makes the structure heavier by ~ 300 kg and increases the RCS due to the presence of gaps in the front hemisphere.

I do not think that the glazing of the cabin is a serious limitation on the maximum speed. There are enough solutions in this area. For example, the nose fairings of hypersonic missiles are made of glass and its derivatives

 

[RJMAZ]

The fact is that since the seventies, American military aviation has deliberately reduced the requirements for maximum speed. I do not know how this is justified, probably there is logic in this.

The cruising speeds of fighters has steadily increased. Average speed has significantly increased. There is a huge advantage to supercruising. Faster is definitely better. The top speed haven't been as important due to the range being so low when travelling with Max afterburner.

A Mach 3.5 top speed of NGAD would not have been a design requirement. It would have simply been a result of the requirement for a high supercruise speed. If you build a design that can cruise at mach 2 without afterburner then it shouldn't be a surprise that it will be extremely fast with afterburner.

Flying at a speed of more than M = 2.1 forces the use of an adjustable air intake, which makes the structure heavier by ~ 300 kg and increases the RCS due to the presence of gaps in the front hemisphere.

It is easy to design the fixed intakes to be tuned for the mach 2+ range. The intake would then be a restriction at low speeds. There are multiple solutions that can solve that. Both the F-117 and B-2 have doors that opened at low speeds to increase airflow to the engines.

This also assumes the three stream engine behaves the same at high speed. The third stream could behave like the J58 engine in the SR-71. So instead of narrowing the intake the extra airflow can bleed into the third stream and dump into the afterburner. This would also explain the record breaking speed.

 

[paralay]

I know three airplanes that flew for a long time at supersonic speeds of more than 2500 km / h, two of them are steel, one is titanium. The preparation for the flight of the latter is comparable to the preparation for a flight into space.
The cost of NGAD has already become a problem for the world's largest military budget...

 

[RJMAZ]

I know three airplanes that flew for a long time at supersonic speeds of more than 2500 km / h, two of them are steel, one is titanium.

I'm not saying NGAD can fly above 2,500km/h for a long time. 2,500 km/h would surely be well above the supercruising speed of NGAD. Any bursts above 2,500km/h would be for a short time thus they do not require steel and titanium.

The F-22 has a supercruise speed listed at 1,870 km/h. I assume NGAD will have a supercruise similar or maybe around 2,000km/h but the key feature is it will be able to supercruise for much longer than the F-22.

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

Do you feel that advances in composite materials could counter this?

BMI composites such as the IM-7/5250-4 on the F-22 can have operating temperatures of 400 degrees Fahrenheit sustained, which is even better than aluminum, but these materials are quite expensive, and Mach 2+ speeds also make you much more visible in the IR spectrum.

The official F-15E fact sheet on the USAF website says Mach 2.5 plus. The F-15EX has engines with 23% more thrust than the original F-15E engines.

The static thrust of the F-15E with the F100-229 (29,160 lbs thrust) is negligibly different from the F-15EX with F110-129 (29,500 lbs thrust). The dynamic thrust of the -129 is better, but it tells nothing about the max speed of aircraft. In fact, the F-15E with -229 engines tops out at Mach 2.35 while the -220 engines top out at Mach 2.40

 

[RJMAZ]

I am not aware of the characteristics of modern composite materials. I assume that their heat transfer is worse than that of metals, but this is not accurate

Ceramic matrix composites or CMC are a modern composite materials that is now appearing in turbine blades of the latest engines. They have the highest heat handling ability and also absorb radar. The most flawless material for the leading edges of a high speed stealth fighter.

CMC is ridiculously expensive. The recent reports how they are redesigning NGAD for low cost could involve swapping out expensive high temp materials for lower cost less heat tolerant materials. This makes sense if the record breaking NGAD prototype far exceeded the operational need for speed. I can't think of any other way to design out cost besides changing the materials and simplifying the design such as removing active cooling systems.

 

[Forest Green]

Its OK. We dont need to debate over the exact terminology. Or which budget paid for the aircraft.

Pentagon fails 7th audit in a row, eyes passing grade by 2028 - Breaking Defense

“This result was not a surprise, and I know that on the surface it doesn't sound like we're making progress. However, that is not the case,” said DoD comptroller Michael McCord.

breakingdefense.com

 

[RJMAZ]

Mach 2+ speeds also make you much more visible in the IR spectrum.

Forcing the enemy to spend tens of billions of dollars developing an integrated IR sensor network that is datalinked to provide guidance to SAM missiles. Sounds like a great idea. The USAF only needs a small silver bullet fleet of aircraft but the enemy has to develop countermeasures.

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

That is usually what happens when someone accidentally says restricted information. They have to say they misspoke. He originally said mach 2.9. When misspeaking it is common to get two numbers the wrong way around. But he said "nearly mach 3". Mach 2.497 is not "nearly mach 3."

"Nearly mach 3" matches his "mach 2.9" quote.

The official F-15E fact sheet on the USAF website says Mach 2.5 plus. The F-15EX has engines with 23% more thrust than the original F-15E engines.

Let's put this ridiculous myth to rest. Again, keep in mind that the F100-229 engines have practically the same static thrust as the F110-129 on the F-15EX, and more powerful than the F100-220.

 

[RJMAZ]

Let's put this ridiculous myth to rest. Again, keep in mind that the F100-229 engines have practically the same static thrust as the F110-129 on the F-15EX, and more powerful than the F100-220.

I'm not sure if posting graphs from a flight test done 34 years ago will help put this to rest.

Both of the graphs include the lower powered Pratt 220 engines.

 

[flateric]

I'm not sure if posting graphs from a flight test done 34 years ago will help put this to rest.

I'm not sure if you even understand what that graphs mean.

 

[flateric]

Assuming a 22.5° 2D wedge, the 40.8° oblique shock wave corresponds to about Mach 3. For a 3D cone, the Mach number is around 2.

Sure. As legit as these.

 

[FlyGuy369]

Currently trying to use this to make a good model of it. Most notable thing I can guess so far (based on planform alignment and this image) is the atleast two of the three major angles present are a wing sweep of 45 degrees and a chine sweep of 12.5. I haven't found a good reference for the trailing edge areas to derive the third, but from what I could snag from the Northrop commercials, it may be around 15 degrees forward, depending on span location respectively.

 

[VTOLicious]

Currently trying to use this to make a good model of it. Most notable thing I can guess so far (based on planform alignment and this image) is the atleast two of the three major angles present are a wing sweep of 45 degrees and a chine sweep of 12.5. I haven't found a good reference for the trailing edge areas to derive the third, but from what I could snag from the Northrop commercials, it may be around 15 degrees forward, depending on span location respectively.

You could use the planform of MRF-24X as a baseline...

 

[RJMAZ]

Currently trying to use this to make a good model of it.

Intakes will not be on the upper surface. That cockpit looks looks far too big relative to the aircraft size. That looks like a F-35 sized aircraft yet NGAD will have twice the thrust of the F-35.

 

[VTOLicious]

...NGAD will have twice the thrust of the F-35.

How do you know? I would suggest to use terms like "assumed", "most probably", "imho", etc.

 

[FlyGuy369]

Intakes will not be on the upper surface. That cockpit looks looks far too big relative to the aircraft size. That looks like a F-35 sized aircraft yet NGAD will have twice the thrust of the F-35.

So both of these images come from Boeing filed patents, not to mention, they have given many renderings of this specific aircraft on atleast 5 separate occasions (patents include) all of which show top mounted intakes. In the one that speaks to deployable canards above the intakes, it makes specific mention of pressurized air ports to aide in keeping air flow to the intakes during low speed operations.

 

[FlyGuy369]

You could use the planform of MRF-24X as a baseline...
View attachment 748272

I appreciate you.

 

[VTOLicious]

Currently trying to use this to make a good model of it. Most notable thing I can guess so far (based on planform alignment and this image) is the atleast two of the three major angles present are a wing sweep of 45 degrees and a chine sweep of 12.5. I haven't found a good reference for the trailing edge areas to derive the third, but from what I could snag from the Northrop commercials, it may be around 15 degrees forward, depending on span location respectively.

I would like to encourage you to create a dedicated thread in the Aircraft Design section: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forums/aircraft-design.74/

 

[FlyGuy369]

I would like to encourage you to create a dedicated thread in the Aircraft Design section: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forums/aircraft-design.74/

Thank you, will do, but I'll still post what I find news wise or other info as it comes by so long as you all don't mind.

 

[quellish]

The most flawless material for the leading edges of a high speed stealth fighter.

The leading edges need to smoothly transition from the electrical properties of free space (air) to that of the rest of the aircraft structure. Ceramic matrix composites can't do that.

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

I'm not sure if posting graphs from a flight test done 34 years ago will help put this to rest.

Both of the graphs include the lower powered Pratt 220 engines.

Are you fucking blind?

https://tacg218.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/F-15E-Flight-Manual-15-April-1993.pdf

Go check page 772, this is clearly the -229 engines.

The F-15EX does not go Mach 2.9, period. The PM misspoke at the spur of the moment and explicitly clarified Mach 2.497.