TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[snne]

Turkish Aerospace Advancing Additional Kaan Prototypes​

LONDON—Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has revealed it is advancing development of a second prototype of the Kaan indigenous combat aircraft.

In articles published in the company’s in-house journal at the beginning of May to mark the first flight of the Kaan prototype earlier this year, the company says production of the second prototype, referred to as P1, is “proceeding according to schedule.” It is scheduled to move into final assembly later this year and be placed onto its landing gear in 2025, before flying later that year, the documents state.

https://www.tusas.com/medya-merkezi/Dergi?s=1&d=2024#3798

TAI says it will produce 29 Kaan prototypes, but these likely will include the first 20 pre-production standard aircraft. The OEM hopes to begin delivering them to the Turkish Air Force beginning in 2028.


The first prototype, which has made two flights—on Feb. 21 May 6—is referred to as P0. According to the TAI articles, P0 was produced in just nine months to meet three needs: as a “demonstration to government officials, to perform a hangar rollout and display aircraft engine starting.”

It appears P0 then was adapted for flight using “newly developed strengthening systems,” writes the Kaan program assembly manager, Celal Onur Alkas. A series of structural checks was conducted to ensure the prototype could deal with “anticipated flight loads,” reports Ugur Zengin, the TAI executive vice president for the Turkish fighter program. The aircraft also was fitted with a new canopy for bird-strike testing, while the landing gear was rigorously tested, he notes.

The aircraft originally was due to make its first flight on Feb. 20, but “minor deviations” from the simulation were noted in the flight control system so the flight was delayed.

The OEM says the Kaan is 90% indigenous, with 100 Turkish companies supporting the program. Some 24 of the 30 subsystems used on P0 were supplied by domestic companies and work is continuing to localize parts sourced from foreign entities.

Among the foreign components are the General Electric F110 engine from the Lockheed Martin F-16, two of which power the prototype Kaan. The other is the Martin-Baker ejection seat. TAI-owned TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI) and TR Motor are leading development of an indigenous engine to replace the F110 for later blocks of the fighter.

As part of the development of the pre-production aircraft that will form Block 0, system architectural design has been completed and during 2024, engineers will work on “establishing test procedures.” Also, during 2024, two system integration laboratories will be commissioned.

System critical-design review meetings with subcontractors are expected in the second quarter of 2024, followed by critical-design review meetings for Block 10 aircraft systems in the third quarter, the articles state.

Work also is ongoing on qualifying materials for low-observability, as well as wind-tunnel and flight-control system testing. A roadmap is being developed for the software to equip the aircraft entering Turkish Air Force service in 2028, as well as the ground software that will assist maintainers.

TAI also is continuing construction of infrastructure to support development efforts at its Ankara campus. Projects include test facilities for lightning strikes, near-field radar cross-section trials, and structural test and verification. The articles also mention development of a flying-test laboratory that is expected to make use of a second-hand business jet, as first reported by Aviation Week.

“The facilities and infrastructures that Kaan has brought to our country and our company during the development process will play a significant role in realizing numerous projects as the hub of the Turkish aviation,” writes TAI Chairman Rafet Bozdogan.

TAI officials also are working on “cooperation models” with foreign companies as the company looks to expand the Kaan program beyond Turkey, explains Osman Eldar Donmez, the Kaan program’s subcontracts manager. Agreements on the program have been signed with Azerbaijan.

“We are currently collaborating closely with the Presidency of Defense Industry Agency to advance these efforts,” Donmez adds.

The articles also say TAI already is looking beyond the Kaan and is “actively engaged in developing sixth-generation [combat] aircraft. However, no details have yet emerged about potential concepts.

https://aviationweek.com/defense-sp...erospace-advancing-additional-kaan-prototypes

 

[snne]

I'd say that's a pretty good deal

https://twitter.com/x/status/1789929133826326734

View: https://twitter.com/TyrannosurusRex/status/1789929133826326734?t=I9zWzstv2OKWF1AS182mnA&s=19

 

[snne]

From ASELSAN's 2023 activity report:

https://t.co/912b8T5qPu

As predicted, MURAD has become a radar "family". The AESA Radar of Kaan, previously named BÜRFIS, has been coded as the "600A". OTOH, F16's radar is given the code "100A".

The 'Preliminary Design Period' of the ASELSAN MURAD-600A AESA Nose Radar developed for the KAAN fighter jet has been successfully completed and 'Critical Design' activities have been initiated.

Work has been carried out to develop new generation communication subsystems in accordance with the IMA (Integrated Modular Avionics) architecture of the ICNAir-ASQ-9683 system, which is being developed within the scope of the BÜHSET (Integrated Communication Navigation Identification) Project carried out under the MMU program.

TOYGUN 100 and TOYGUN 200 preliminary design phases have been completed. The journey towards CDR has begun. (the same situation applies to KARAT IRST)

MMU optical systems visual.

Prototypes are being produced for MWIS. (F-35 DAS equivalent?)

 

[Maro.Kyo]

I wonder if the differences beyween MURAD-100A and 600A are more like the difference between APG-81 and SABR or Vixen 500E and 1000E.

Also, I'd imagine that MWIS would stand for Missile Warning Infrared Sensor. The sensor with its fixed aperture cannot be something other than a MAWS, realistically speaking.

 

[Waterballoon]

I wonder if the differences beyween MURAD-100A and 600A are more like the difference between APG-81 and SABR or Vixen 500E and 1000E.

The -100A won't differ that much with compared with the ones for the Akinci, KE and Hurjet expect for shape and size with corresponding amount of trm.

-600A I have a feeling is going to be a different beast not only wrt its trm count.

 

[snne]

I wonder if the differences beyween MURAD-100A and 600A are more like the difference between APG-81 and SABR or Vixen 500E and 1000E.

Also, I'd imagine that MWIS would stand for Missile Warning Infrared Sensor. The sensor with its fixed aperture cannot be something other than a MAWS, realistically speaking.

As you've said, MWIS is short for Mid Wave Infrared System. It is the same thing as the DAS(with a better sensor 640p vs 720p). The picture shows a single camera of the MWIS. It will be placed all around the aircraft and it is also an infrared-based missile warning system on top of being a 360 degree infrared search&surveillance system.

It should be noted that the "Integrated RF System (BÜRFİS)" is a system of integrated apartures placed around the airframe. As such, MURAD-600A only one of the elements of this system.

MURAD-100A features 1138 GaN modules, so the 600A should be an upscaled version of it (along with some software differences). AFAICR APG-81 and 83 have more than 75% commonality in software, so the situation should be similar in this case.

MURAD-100A has started flying only a couple of months ago, so it should take a significant amount of time to enhance the software. They will then need to tweak it for the upscaled version.

They will also integrate the 100A to Hurjet, jet UCAVs/LW and also to Akinci. How these will differ from the base model is still not known, but it has been reported that the integration activities on Akinci is complete and it is expected to fly any day now.

 

[Waterballoon]

1138

1152 confirmed by Gorgun and Akyol

 

[Radonislav]

1152 confirmed by Gorgun and Akyol

Yep, 72 blocks of 16 modules

 

[Proportions]

Frame

I noticed that this photo is in high resolution. Where can I find original high quality technical drawing of the entire aircraft?

 

[snne]

I noticed that this photo is in high resolution. Where can I find original high quality technical drawing of the entire aircraft?

Ehm... you literally can't? (unless you ask TA directly) His drawing is a fan-made estimation of the cross-section of the plane. There bound to be some mistakes with his estimates considering he's not an insider.

 

[snne]

A Saudi MoD delegation examined the Kaan

 

[FighterJock]

So it looks like Saudi Arabia could well be the first export customer for the Kaan.

 

[Combat-Master]

So it looks like Saudi Arabia could well be the first export customer for the Kaan.

according to who ?

 

[snne]

So it looks like Saudi Arabia could well be the first export customer for the Kaan.

This is why I wasn't sure whether to share it here. Yes, Turkey is trying to find customers/partners and there are indeed many delegations visiting TAI these days; and the Saudis are just one of 'em. There were seperate visits from the NATO chief and the RAF brass some time ago as well, but that doesn't mean they're looking to be a part of the programme.

 

[FighterJock]

It will be interesting to see if Saudi Arabia does purchase the Kaan, it would be a major bonus for Turkey and TAI.

 

[Waterballoon]

It will be interesting to see if Saudi Arabia does purchase the Kaan, it would be a major bonus for Turkey and TAI.

The Block 10 would be the most obvious replacement for the (earliest) F-15C's

 

[Scott Kenny]

This is an indelicate question to ask, but how much of Turkish culture is influenced by the Arabic "inshallah" fatalistic view? Yes, I know Turks aren't Arabs and will likely be rather insulted at the comparison.

This gets into a lot of maintenance issues especially, the "inshallah" view tends to not do maintenance or at best hires other people to do the maintenance.

My ugly American view is that the Turks were not particularly infected by that fatalism, but with firm Islamists like Erdogan in charge I'm not sure if that has changed.

 

[Scott Kenny]

We cannot deny that inshallah culture is a little bit accepted. In an area with buildings damaged from a recent earthquake I personally heard people say "inshallah it won't hit here again" when I asked why do they insist living there when they have options.

Inshallah that's not the case in defense sector

Thank you for the answer.

 

[Deino]

The Block 10 would be the most obvious replacement for the (earliest) F-15C's

Shouldn't we all better wait until the first serial aircraft - and even more so those with the promised indigenous - engine es ready?
Otherwise, at least by now and even if a great achievement, until the new engine is not ready, it won't be exported anywhere first due to insufficient performance and second due to an US veto; they never will agree to sell this type with US engines and SA will never buy it when mature F-15s are available.

 

[FighterJock]

True Deino, I had forgot that the Kaan still relied on the US engines.

 

[red admiral]

Otherwise, at least by now and even if a great achievement, until the new engine is not ready, it won't be exported anywhere first due to insufficient performance and second due to an US veto; they never will agree to sell this type with US engines and SA will never buy it when mature F-15s are available.

A US provided engine hasn't stopped exports of Gripen etc. previously? Why would it here?

 

[snne]

A US provided engine hasn't stopped exports of Gripen etc. previously? Why would it here?

It has stopped the export of a Turkish attack heli to Pakistan though. Frankly that was more because of the Pak-US relations and export of critical tech, and delivery to Philippines was unaffected; but Turkish-American relations have always been troublesome and even then it has recently reached a new low. The Turkish side has had a deep mistrust for at least 20 years by now; and they're currently using American engines out of necessity until their domestic equivalents reach enough maturity. (https://turdef.com/article/tei-runs-tf6000-turbofan-engine-for-the-first-time).

https://quwa.org/daily-news/pakistan-extends-t129-atak-delivery-window-by-one-year/
https://quwa.org/daily-news/update-2019-pakistans-t129-atak-attack-helicopter-purchase/
https://theaviationist.com/2024/05/23/philippine-air-force-last-t129-helicopters/

See Baykar for example, even if they could've theoretically gotten F124/125s from Honeywell for use on the Kizilelma, they instead chose Ukranian engines believing the production wouldn't be interrupted and there wouldn't be Western meddling (this was before the war)

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32056-turkey-ukraine-continue-to-work-on-kizilelma-stealth-drone

SA will never buy it when mature F-15s are available.

I know that you're usually quite pessimistic when it comes to Kaan; but if you were the Saudis, would you pursue a 50+ year old design in the age of stealth aircraft and loyal wingmen; or would you pursue a brand new, future-proof stealth fighter (be it Kaan, F-35 or FC-31)? This is my opinion on the matter btw:

This is why I wasn't sure whether to share it here. Yes, Turkey is trying to find customers/partners and there are indeed many delegations visiting TAI these days; and the Saudis are just one of 'em. There were seperate visits from the NATO chief and the RAF brass some time ago as well, but that doesn't mean they're looking to be a part of the programme.

 

[Deino]

A US provided engine hasn't stopped exports of Gripen etc. previously? Why would it here?

Since the US have no export equivalent in the class of the Gripen, as such it is irrelevant, but do you think they would harm any potential sales of F-15s to SA by allowing it to use F110 engines?

 

[snne]

Since the US have no export equivalent in the class of the Gripen, as such it is irrelevant, but do you think they would harm any potential sales of F-15s to SA by allowing it to use F110 engines?

Are you asking whether they would hinder a possible Kaan deal?

Considering they're trying to prevent the Saudis from forming deep bonds with China and are in a position of relative weakness to them; I'd say yes. They wouldn't want to anger them and push them away like they did to their other allies.

 

[red admiral]

Since the US have no export equivalent in the class of the Gripen, as such it is irrelevant, but do you think they would harm any potential sales of F-15s to SA by allowing it to use F110 engines?

There have been plenty of competitions with Gripen Vs US products e.g. Brazil

 

[Deino]

Are you asking whether they would hinder a possible Kaan deal?

Considering they're trying to prevent the Saudis from forming deep bonds with China and are in a position of relative weakness to them; I'd say yes. They wouldn't want to anger them and push them away like they did to their other allies.

Yes exactly and I'm pretty sure they will. The US' problem at the moment si, the world is changing and especially states in the ME are not only willing to spend huge amounts of money, but they also do no longer want to depend on the US!

And that's the point: Are they willing to risk their military power by "shifting" towards other sources of equipment and here namely high-end fighters? I think they want, but then the question is, are any potential competitors already that capable and ready to step in? IMO no ... neither the Chinese J-31 is a realistic option (at least not yet) to give up all and Kaan is even more not ready yet.

 

[FighterJock]

The Kaan is still in prototype testing at present and it will be a few years before the engine is ready, so I think that all Saudi Arabia can do now is to play the waiting game until the definitive Kaan is ready.

 

[red admiral]

And that's the point: Are they willing to risk their military power by "shifting" towards other sources of equipment and here namely high-end fighters? I think they want, but then the question is, are any potential competitors already that capable and ready to step in? IMO no ...

Yes, as evidenced by previous sales of M2000, Tornado, Typhoon, Rafael etc. ... The ME isn't a US monopoly market.

Many of the countries appear to actively buy more than one type in order to facilitate closer links with multiple countries.

 

[eagle]

Since the US have no export equivalent in the class of the Gripen, as such it is irrelevant, but do you think they would harm any potential sales of F-15s to SA by allowing it to use F110 engines?

Ahem, F-16?
As is happening right now in Thailand, or has happened in the past in Slovakia f.e.

 

[snne]

I like reading this man's anecdotes. Imagine what could've been if things were somehow different...

 

[Waterballoon]

So it looks like Saudi Arabia could well be the first export customer for the Kaan.

They are, it is part of a defence deal between them and the Turks worth more than 10 billion dollars. They bought Akinci drones, warships, ToT for guided munitions and Kaan.

They were the only foreign dignitaries present at the roll out of Kaan and had multiple meetings with SSB. The fact they were present at change of leadership at TAI is basically a confirmation.

They got into the project before Azerbaijan and Pakistan. The Pakistanis are trying to piggyback on the Saudis because of lack of money.

 

[PringleiPrick]

Do you guys think TAI's recent GM change might be related to this?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/us/politics/boeing-airbus-titanium-faa.html

Could be, yeah. Aerostructures are the majority of TAI's business. Very embarrassing.

 

[Radonislav]

It isn't. Every sub-manufacturer and raw material suppliers are listed in agreements. They don't go and buy from wherever they want to

 

[snne]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1808504456159408560

View: https://x.com/SavunmaSanayii/status/1808504456159408560

 

[FighterJock]

Looks like the Saudis are getting serious about buying the Kaan snne. Will the F-15C be gettting replaced by the Kaan?

 

[snne]

Looks like the Saudis are getting serious about buying the Kaan snne. Will the F-15C be gettting replaced by the Kaan?

These visits don't mean anything, they also visited Baykar for example:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1808583626616868931

View: https://x.com/BaykarTech/status/1808583626616868931

 

[Scott Kenny]

Looks like the Saudis are getting serious about buying the Kaan snne. Will the F-15C be gettting replaced by the Kaan?

I expect that's what they want to do. After all, it's an Islamic weapon, not something made by the Great Satan (the USA).

 

[TomcatViP]

I would not look at this the same way. See it more like a regional alliance, as if Germany was shopping in UK or Fr for some hardware. And the product is not even bad. We have seen already more disastrous socializing buy. (no name is provided but feel free! )

Anyway, it´s great that Turkey is writing another chapter of its Disney story with drones.

 

[FighterJock]

By buying the Kaan the Saudi's will be safeguarding their future air defence against potential enemies like Iran.

 

[Forest Green]

I expect that's what they want to do. After all, it's an Islamic weapon, not something made by the Great Satan (the USA).

TBH, the US haven't offered the F-35 to Saudi Arabia, so the Kaan is the best choice they have, unless they buy J-31s China (which may or may not be any better), or wait for European stealth fighters.

The F-35 ban could change though:

US to lift ban on selling offensive weapons to Saudi Arabia ‘within weeks’

Negotiators are discussing sales of American-made F-35 fighter jets to Riyadh in return for halting Chinese arms purchases in the kingdom

www.telegraph.co.uk