Sukhoi T-75 LTS (CheckMate)

[coanda]

Always fun reading your posts jacko. I think I'll leave it at that.

 

[XaHyMaH]

The problem with that is that you're using parts and sub-assemblies sized, optimised and stressed for a heavy, twin-engined fighter for what's meant to be a lightweight single engined tactical fighter.

No problem at all. Su-57 has a good 'lift distribution' wing ;-)

Moreover, the T-7A shows that designing and manufacturing a new airframe design is easy and cheap - the T-7A beat the T-50 on price!

T-7A has some aerodynamic problems with stability at high AOA. I think they need a Lambda LERX like T-75 ))

 

[kaiserbill]

Coanda,

It's fairly clear to see that this is a first article - for engineering development and display. Nothing wrong with that!

Using as many Su-57 parts as possible is the right way forward. Leveraging that previous investment in design, tech and manufacturing is paramount in making this aircraft 'affordable'.

The more assemblies and tooling you use from already existing and paid for products and processes the lower your upfront setup and long lead item costs.

The problem with that is that you're using parts and sub-assemblies sized, optimised and stressed for a heavy, twin-engined fighter for what's meant to be a lightweight single engined tactical fighter.

When Teddy Petter created the Gnat, he did not start out by using the outer wing panels from a flaming Javelin.

You couldn't create a useful lightweight fighter from the nose, fins and wing of an F-15. And even if we could, it would be vastly inferior to a purpose designed aircraft.

Your examples are not really valid.

The size difference between a Gnat and a Javelin makes an extremely poor example.

Javelin
Length: 17.3m
Span: 16m
Wing area: 86m2
Height: 4.9m
Weight empty: 11 tons
Weight max: 20 tons

Gnat
9m
6.7m
13.2m2
2.7m
2 tons
4 tons

The Javelin is 5 times heavier, and has a wing area approaching 6 times than that of the Gnat.
In fact, you could almost fit an entire Gnat within the area of the either the individual starboard or port Javelin wing.

The Su-57 and LTS are far, far closer in size.
The term "lightweight" fighter is very different these days to the definition used 70 years ago, in the 1950's.

Whilst I agree that using sub components isn't the absolutely, most perfect to the last millimeter and kilogramme design point, we are talking about a world famous, cutting edge aerospace design bureau.
I'm sure they have weighed up the various pros and cons between design, affordability, and performance.

Look at the design of the Su-57, especially in planform, and in particular the central lifting body, and the wings. The central lifting body component is far bigger in relation to area than the F-15.

I think, if Sukhoi carries this LTS off, it's actually an extremely smart design, very cleverly executed.

 

[LMFS]

Criticising the LTS for recycling Su-57 components and systems is like criticising a wheel for being round, getting a cheap plane is what the whole idea is about and if they mange to make this bold approach work it will be one their main achievements in this program

 

[flateric]

I wonder what Roper would say about the Checkmate idea in Digital Century Series context...

 

[AGS-1787]

Maybe the recycling of parts is not so much structural but aerodynamic, they already fiddled a great deal with the su-57 vertical tails so I figure they are using that experience for the new airplane. Is the wing the same? did same sweep angle? Is the cockpit the same size? In some pictures looks small, others it looks big, the radome is different and the shape on the bottom of the nose before the intake is very different.

Regarding Paralay's drawing, that is why I was asking if Sukhoi released a drawing; The camera lenses people are using to photograph this thing give huge distortions so it is hard to judge how skinny of fat the real airplane is. Another thing I wanted to point out, the weapon bay seems like a tight fit for loading, it would be interesting to see the weapon loading procedures. Overall I think that Sukhoi has a great concept, something simpler than an f-35 with more focus on air combat performance and cheaper to build. They are going to have to make sure this thing is easy to operate, maintain, create good parts support, avoid sanctions... to have a winner. I really don't think this airplane should be build to be superior to the competition, but competitive and affordable. I really don't see Argentina purchasing this airplane, they are broke, and with a lot of corruption in the government sadly. Maybe Venezuela with more loans could buy it. I don't see Colombia getting them, they work closely with the USAF and might be getting f-16s in the future (distant).

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

I really don't see Argentina purchasing this airplane, they are broke, and with a lot of corruption in the government sadly.

And they have no reason to do so anyways.

 

[haavarla]

Maybe the recycling of parts is not so much structural but aerodynamic, they already fiddled a great deal with the su-57 vertical tails so I figure they are using that experience for the new airplane. Is the wing the same? did same sweep angle? Is the cockpit the same size? In some pictures looks small, others it looks big, the radome is different and the shape on the bottom of the nose before the intake is very different.

Regarding Paralay's drawing, that is why I was asking if Sukhoi released a drawing; The camera lenses people are using to photograph this thing give huge distortions so it is hard to judge how skinny of fat the real airplane is. Another thing I wanted to point out, the weapon bay seems like a tight fit for loading, it would be interesting to see the weapon loading procedures. Overall I think that Sukhoi has a great concept, something simpler than an f-35 with more focus on air combat performance and cheaper to build. They are going to have to make sure this thing is easy to operate, maintain, create good parts support, avoid sanctions... to have a winner. I really don't think this airplane should be build to be superior to the competition, but competitive and affordable. I really don't see Argentina purchasing this airplane, they are broke, and with a lot of corruption in the government sadly. Maybe Venezuela with more loans could buy it. I don't see Colombia getting them, they work closely with the USAF and might be getting f-16s in the future (distant).

The only interesting thing for me, is how much longer or streched this thing is vs F-35.
1m or 2m? This will give us much required answers regarding fuel and wepon capacity.

 

[LMFS]

I wonder what Roper would say about the Checkmate idea in Digital Century Series context...

That the Russians copied them, as they did with their hypersonic weapons xD

The only interesting thing for me, is how much longer or streched this thing is vs F-35.
1m or 2m? This will give us much required answers regarding fuel and wepon capacity.

Seems to be easily 2 m longer, you can see also the big difference in the nozzle position and therefore resulting space between the cockpit and the engine. F-35 is thick where LTS is long, both solutions mean a big fuselage with big internal volume, but the LTS should have better conditions for supersonic flight.

 

[AGS-1787]

I always thought the f-35 came short because they needed to keep the thrust from the nozzles closer to the center of the airplane for the marines version

 

[AGS-1787]

yeah, so far the western consensus is that it is an f-35 copy and that it came too late. That it will get eaten for lunch by f-35s. I feel like this thing is the best thing that could happen to western manufacturers, that way they can pitch in an f-22 replacement, upgrades for the f-35, etc. As an aviation enthusiast, I'm excited since these days we don't get to see new airplanes very often. In the old days, they would have so many types of airplanes that the pace was insane. Not these days unfortuntely. Now if we could see what has been cooking in Groom lake for the last 30 years...

 

[DWG]

The term "lightweight" fighter is very different these days to the definition used 70 years ago, in the 1950's.

You can scale airframe and engine, but avionics, not so much. About the only thing scalable avionics wise is radar antenna size. Anything else, you aren't scaling down, you're dropping capabilities. That makes a contemporary lightweight fighter unavoidably larger and more expensive than earlier concepts of lightweight.

 

[XaHyMaH]

The only interesting thing for me, is how much longer or streched this thing is vs F-35.
1m or 2m? This will give us much required answers regarding fuel and wepon capacity.

The length is only one parameter and we are in 3D world (sorry Einstein - excluding time dimension)
So...

Length is not so important =)

 

[XaHyMaH]

And they have no reason to do so anyways.

If brits will be busy at Falklands they will have no time to Crimea

 

[XaHyMaH]

I always thought the f-35 came short because they needed to keep the thrust from the nozzles closer to the center of the airplane for the marines version

F-35 optimized for subsonic flight and conforms to Volume/Surface*Drag optimum. Ideal Volume/Surface body is sphere. Squeeze it to less drag and you get Pregnant Penguin ;-)

 

[DWG]

And they have no reason to do so anyways.

If brits will be busy at Falklands they will have no time to Crimea

That's a reason for Russia to want to sell it to them (and probably exactly the reason they featured in the vids), but if they go for Checkmate, then what will the West sell Chile in reply? The UK isn't a threat to Argentina, but Chile is a direct threat to its territorial integrity, and Chile is already stronger. It would be bad bargain for Argentina.

 

[Roland55]

And they have no reason to do so anyways.

If brits will be busy at Falklands they will have no time to Crimea

That's a reason for Russia to want to sell it to them (and probably exactly the reason they featured in the vids), but if they go for Checkmate, then what will the West sell Chile in reply? The UK isn't a threat to Argentina, but Chile is a direct threat to its territorial integrity, and Chile is already stronger. It would be bad bargain for Argentina.

Chile and Argentina enjoy fairly peaceful relations since quite some time (the ghost of 1978 is not likely to return), and like most LATAM countries, conflict and the reasons to start one are small or hard to find (Delimitations have been settled, most agendas by the gov often center in economic relations and in cooperation between countries). In regards to Chile today, they has the most powerful AF in LATAM and absolutely none protested about it and in future years nobody will (maybe with the exception of Bolivia and its Sea Claims).

The deal here is that the FAA is looking for an inexpensive 4th gen to fill the gap (M2000, Kfir, early F-16s) or a more definitive solution, we already seen how uneasy the relations are with russian equipment and the reduced number of aircraft they have in mind (10/12, with maybe possibility of 12 more), is that really a threat for anyone around? No…not even for the FACH or for the South Atlantic islands... sometimes there is a lot of "what if they..." around.

 

[haavarla]

The only interesting thing for me, is how much longer or streched this thing is vs F-35.
1m or 2m? This will give us much required answers regarding fuel and wepon capacity.

The length is only one parameter and we are in 3D world (sorry Einstein - excluding time dimension)
So...

Length is not so important =)

Can't really figure out your point here.
I could go on a lenghty aerodynamic standpoint how a more streamlined and strenched design over the F-35 could have its advantages.

But i feel this is very much beating a dead horse by now.. so i digress.

 

[XaHyMaH]

Can't really figure out your point here.

T-75 is longer than F-35 and has a wider wingspan than F-35A. But T-75's empty weight is smaller due it's narrow body.

 

[helmutkohl]

Can't really figure out your point here.

T-75 is longer than F-35 and has a wider wingspan than F-35A. But T-75's empty weight is smaller due it's narrow body.

Paralay's post on page 26 has their estimate on the two different sizes

@paralay

i dont know how accurate it is.. but the F-35 is a quite a bit shorter
but wider (if you look at the front profiles)

 

[haavarla]

Can't really figure out your point here.

T-75 is longer than F-35 and has a wider wingspan than F-35A. But T-75's empty weight is smaller due it's narrow body.

empty weight is surly a speculation at this stage.

The first and obvious improvment with a stretched airframe would be a much more optional choice of Airfoils. IMO their slimmer shape, swept angle and size(lift).
As we can see on that static Su-75 thing. It surly has larger wings with a more agressive swepet wing angle.

Btw, Paralay@. The Airfoils on Su-75 should be larger than that!

Without going any further, right there we have an improvment one cannot overlook.

 

[totoro]

yeah, so far the western consensus is that it is an f-35 copy and that it came too late. That it will get eaten for lunch by f-35s.

If that comment refers to number of sales around the world - I find it very strange. There is going to be extremely limited overlap, market wise, for those two planes.
Countries that might find a fighter with the specifications like LTS interesting are countries that will not be buying Russian gear.
Also, a lot of countries that might want the F-35 will not be able to afford it. Not to mention there's a subsection of countries that the US will simply not export the F-35 to.

So, the countries that might really see both the F-35 and LTS on an official offer are going to be limited to just a few. India, probably. (even though with the US threats to India over S-400, that too isn't 100% sure) Perhaps Egypt or UAE. (The US was sending mixed signals to UAE on F-35. Right now the sale seems to be on but we'll see if that changes now) I don't know if there's any other country that might see both planes have in the running. Turkey maybe, but I somehow don't see the US offering F-35 again without some serious geopolitical changes there.

The real competition to LTS, providing its development goes through, will be Chinese planes and locally developed planes. Maybe the Turkish fighter, the Indian fighters, Indonesian KFX and so on. Chinese will likely have the FC-31 on offer finally, though it remains to be seen if that will be too expensive for most. And perhaps even some future J-10 variant might be somewhat competitive.

 

[FighterJock]

yeah, so far the western consensus is that it is an f-35 copy and that it came too late. That it will get eaten for lunch by f-35s.

If that comment refers to number of sales around the world - I find it very strange. There is going to be extremely limited overlap, market wise, for those two planes.
Countries that might find a fighter with the specifications like LTS interesting are countries that will not be buying Russian gear.
Also, a lot of countries that might want the F-35 will not be able to afford it. Not to mention there's a subsection of countries that the US will simply not export the F-35 to.

So, the countries that might really see both the F-35 and LTS on an official offer are going to be limited to just a few. India, probably. (even though with the US threats to India over S-400, that too isn't 100% sure) Perhaps Egypt or UAE. (The US was sending mixed signals to UAE on F-35. Right now the sale seems to be on but we'll see if that changes now) I don't know if there's any other country that might see both planes have in the running. Turkey maybe, but I somehow don't see the US offering F-35 again without some serious geopolitical changes there.

The real competition to LTS, providing its development goes through, will be Chinese planes and locally developed planes. Maybe the Turkish fighter, the Indian fighters, Indonesian KFX and so on. Chinese will likely have the FC-31 on offer finally, though it remains to be seen if that will be too expensive for most. And perhaps even some future J-10 variant might be somewhat competitive.

I could see Egypt buying a few Su-75s to replace their F-16s. As for the UAE I could see them buying a few too, it depends if the US blocks the F-35 order.

 

[haavarla]

yeah, so far the western consensus is that it is an f-35 copy and that it came too late. That it will get eaten for lunch by f-35s.

If that comment refers to number of sales around the world - I find it very strange. There is going to be extremely limited overlap, market wise, for those two planes.
Countries that might find a fighter with the specifications like LTS interesting are countries that will not be buying Russian gear.
Also, a lot of countries that might want the F-35 will not be able to afford it. Not to mention there's a subsection of countries that the US will simply not export the F-35 to.

So, the countries that might really see both the F-35 and LTS on an official offer are going to be limited to just a few. India, probably. (even though with the US threats to India over S-400, that too isn't 100% sure) Perhaps Egypt or UAE. (The US was sending mixed signals to UAE on F-35. Right now the sale seems to be on but we'll see if that changes now) I don't know if there's any other country that might see both planes have in the running. Turkey maybe, but I somehow don't see the US offering F-35 again without some serious geopolitical changes there.

The real competition to LTS, providing its development goes through, will be Chinese planes and locally developed planes. Maybe the Turkish fighter, the Indian fighters, Indonesian KFX and so on. Chinese will likely have the FC-31 on offer finally, though it remains to be seen if that will be too expensive for most. And perhaps even some future J-10 variant might be somewhat competitive.

I could see Egypt buying a few Su-75s to replace their F-16s. As for the UAE I could see them buying a few too, it depends if the US blocks the F-35 order.

First of all, have Egypt even mailed an interest of buying the F-35?
I'd say its a given US would not let Egypt have any F-35.

 

[XaHyMaH]

but wider (if you look at the front profiles)

It's F-35C. F-35A has smaller wingspan.

Edit:
Fresh measurments from paralay's forum

 

[helmutkohl]

but wider (if you look at the front profiles)

It's F-35C. F-35A has smaller wingspan.

im referring to the fueselage

 

[paralay]

 

[Archibald]

Drat, my screen is too small for your artwork !

 

[totoro]

yeah, so far the western consensus is that it is an f-35 copy and that it came too late. That it will get eaten for lunch by f-35s.

If that comment refers to number of sales around the world - I find it very strange. There is going to be extremely limited overlap, market wise, for those two planes.
Countries that might find a fighter with the specifications like LTS interesting are countries that will not be buying Russian gear.
Also, a lot of countries that might want the F-35 will not be able to afford it. Not to mention there's a subsection of countries that the US will simply not export the F-35 to.

So, the countries that might really see both the F-35 and LTS on an official offer are going to be limited to just a few. India, probably. (even though with the US threats to India over S-400, that too isn't 100% sure) Perhaps Egypt or UAE. (The US was sending mixed signals to UAE on F-35. Right now the sale seems to be on but we'll see if that changes now) I don't know if there's any other country that might see both planes have in the running. Turkey maybe, but I somehow don't see the US offering F-35 again without some serious geopolitical changes there.

The real competition to LTS, providing its development goes through, will be Chinese planes and locally developed planes. Maybe the Turkish fighter, the Indian fighters, Indonesian KFX and so on. Chinese will likely have the FC-31 on offer finally, though it remains to be seen if that will be too expensive for most. And perhaps even some future J-10 variant might be somewhat competitive.

I could see Egypt buying a few Su-75s to replace their F-16s. As for the UAE I could see them buying a few too, it depends if the US blocks the F-35 order.

First of all, have Egypt even mailed an interest of buying the F-35?
I'd say its a given US would not let Egypt have any F-35.

It has not. I'd rate Egypt very unlikely to get F-35 on offer, at least not before 2050s. And even then, providing there's been some political shift in US favor. The only reason I mentioned Egypt in the first place is because they do occasionally get to buy some not as advanced US equipment as well. They do like to sit on two chairs.

 

[trose213]

It has not. I'd rate Egypt very unlikely to get F-35 on offer, at least not before 2050s. And even then, providing there's been some political shift in US favor. The only reason I mentioned Egypt in the first place is because they do occasionally get to buy some not as advanced US equipment as well. They do like to sit on two chairs.

They got their Falcons in 82, so in the 2030s are more likely. The only reason why the Egyptians were buying Russian was to hedge on their relationship with the US and it looks like the Russians have gotten muscled out by the French.

 

[TR1]

It has not. I'd rate Egypt very unlikely to get F-35 on offer, at least not before 2050s. And even then, providing there's been some political shift in US favor. The only reason I mentioned Egypt in the first place is because they do occasionally get to buy some not as advanced US equipment as well. They do like to sit on two chairs.

They got their Falcons in 82, so in the 2030s are more likely. The only reason why the Egyptians were buying Russian was to hedge on their relationship with the US and it looks like the Russians have gotten muscled out by the French.

They have just recently bought 50 MiG-29, 50 Ka-52, and are waiting on 30 Su-35 from Russia. That is not including SAMs and radars since the early 2010s and through today.

Doesn't sound like out-muscling to me.

 

[paralay]

Please could you overlay the Checkmate on the Su-57?

 

[trose213]

50 Ka-52, and are waiting on 30 Su-35 from Russia

The Saudis paid for the Mistrial and Ka-52s and I wouldn't hold my breath on the Su-35s getting delivered.

 

[TR1]

50 Ka-52, and are waiting on 30 Su-35 from Russia

The Saudis paid for the Mistrial and Ka-52s and I wouldn't hold my breath on the Su-35s getting delivered.

Saudis pay for every French purchase the Egyptians make too, so I am not sure what your point is. There is a complex web of who sponsors who, Egypt has been armed from all corners, from SA to Jordan to UAE, Russia and France. I just recalled, they have a big deal with Italy in the works too.
Mistrals were bought from France anyways, if anything that was a free gift to Russia money wise (if Ka-52K order materializes).

Su-35s are delayed due to CAASTA, not French influence.
The US is the one big arms supplier than has been significantly pushed out/exited Egypt.

 

[trose213]

Su-35s are delayed due to CAASTA, not French influence.

Delayed indefinitely.

 

[isayyo2]

Su-35s are delayed due to CAASTA, not French influence.

Delayed indefinitely.

Very sad if true, but the extra Rafale’s and possibly tankers make up for it.

 

[CJGibson]

Return to off-axis major components on aircraft.

The Mi-24/25 Hind series has the main rotor plane tilted over to starboard by around 7 degrees. Caught me out when I was drawing one and I'd been looking at these things since the 80s.

Cue scramble for Hind drawings. Mine is in Typhoon to Typhoon if you want to check.

Chris

 

[haavarla]

50 Ka-52, and are waiting on 30 Su-35 from Russia

The Saudis paid for the Mistrial and Ka-52s and I wouldn't hold my breath on the Su-35s getting delivered.

Getting delivered?
Aren'tthey already flying with Egyptian AF?

 

[helmutkohl]

50 Ka-52, and are waiting on 30 Su-35 from Russia

The Saudis paid for the Mistrial and Ka-52s and I wouldn't hold my breath on the Su-35s getting delivered.

Getting delivered?
Aren'tthey already flying with Egyptian AF?

we had some discussion about this in the Rafale thread, where some news reported that the Egyptian Rafales gave problems to Egyptian Su-35s (hence their further order?).
the discussion was whether this was a bogus report or not as people were uncertain if the Su-35s were already delivered, or flying in Russia for tests still.

 

[TMA1]

50 Ka-52, and are waiting on 30 Su-35 from Russia

The Saudis paid for the Mistrial and Ka-52s and I wouldn't hold my breath on the Su-35s getting delivered.

Getting delivered?
Aren'tthey already flying with Egyptian AF?

we had some discussion about this in the Rafale thread, where some news reported that the Egyptian Rafales gave problems to Egyptian Su-35s (hence their further order?).
the discussion was whether this was a bogus report or not as people were uncertain if the Su-35s were already delivered, or flying in Russia for tests still

You mean breakingdefense? Linked by a notoriously inaccurate indian defense site?

Also many NGOs reporting "humanitarian crisis" (funny enough involving primarily members of muslim brotherhood) in Egypt, as well as further threats over the Nile being dammed I think are being leveraged against Egypt, and Russia has been silent. Russia is a serious player but we and other aligned interests know how to twist the screws.

Edit:had to retype my post