Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part I [2006-2008]

[flateric]

I bet program leaders themselves can't say that exactly. Some insiders say that yes, there are some improvements in comparison to early situation - in terms of aerodynamics. Continuous postponing first flight date, critical notes from TzAGI gremlins with 'it's-not-so-bad' the same time from KNAAPO guys who saw the actual CAD renderings...it will be intrigue for the nearest two years.

 

[medal64]

I read something about this but all of these news are not right becouse both goverment signed an agreement about this project.And people can dicuss about this.All like this news are coming from the same websites.

 

[medal64]

Do you know information about when will it fly in 2009 or 2012 and what will be the main differences betwen indian and russian versions of this aircraft.Will india use foreign avionics ?

 

[medal64]

if India wants a lightweight mig fifth generation fighter do you think will Russia go on with sukhoi pak-fa project.I think pak-fa is the best and a design stages mostly completed aircraft.

 

[flateric]

if India wants a lightweight mig fifth generation fighter

we will offer MiG-35 - not modified -29M2, but really 'new' -35 with reworked tail, higher TOGW and 10 weapon carriage points (doing it already)

do you think will Russia go on with sukhoi pak-fa project.

you mean what? Will we continue to build if India will not participate (yes, we will, anyway) or will we offer it as a 'lightweight fighter' (no way T-50 is a 'lightweight' one)?

I think pak-fa is the best and a design stages mostly completed aircraft.

How can you say that of this 'powerpoint uncertainty' with first flight date magically moving fast from the end of 2007 to 2009, then to 2012, back to 2009 and now to the end of 2008? You even didn't see it yet, what the point for any analyzes?

 

[medal64]

I'm always fallowing the articles about the pak-fa.At all analyses pak-fa is calling as the best aircraft project for Rusaf and also the designers of the the pak-fa says that this aircraft will be the best aircraft in the world.These are very important I think,but certainly at first we should wait for first flight of the aircraft.

 

[Ogami musashi]

medal you should certainly not trust designers and analysts and even less believe russian ones that are trying to make believe the public that everything's fine in the russian aerospace industry.

We've heard from internals at sukhoi that the pak-fa was actually not top of the top in terms of both aerodynamics and engines and about 3 weeks after we knew it, we learnt Tsagi was now taking the airframe to study it because it seems really the sukhoi engineers had trouble getting something correct.
(by the word of one engineer "they mess flight dynamics and aerodynamics").

It seems with the help of Tsagi the airframe is getting better but wait for the engine then...actually the project is quasi stopped, and the pak fa prototype will surely have as much in common with the serial one as a car with a boat.

It is not easy to do a SU-27 each day!

 

[flateric]

OK, in many cases TzAGI involvement ends with total fiasco as I can suggest from Sukhoi's Samoilovich and many other respected persons point of view. It's when hard science meets hard life. One of examples that comes to mind is TzAGI recommendation to lower ground pressure from T-4MS (AFAIR) by increasing a number of wheels, decreasing their diameter to save total weight. 'What a diameter will be? - asked man from Sukhoi' - TzAGI guy: XXX mm according to our calcualtions.... - I'll open a new brave word for you, pal - didn't you know that calculated MLG spindle diameter is XXX-20 mm? Where damn you will find such a tires? And where are you going to put damn brakes?

 

[medal64]

I hope everything goes ok and we can see the plane near future.At first stage in 2009 the aircraft will fly with 117s engine and non original avionics they say.But I have some questions about avionics,if russian version flies earlier both russian and indian version's avionics will be the same?And do you think can indians make the avionics better than russians and also americans.

 

[medal64]

I mean can indians help pak-fa project with their advanced avionics.Or indians avionics are better than russians.And what do you think which is better su 35BM or su 30mki.

 

[hs1216]

I’m not sure the Russians need any help when it comes to avionics, maybe in the obtaining of advanced components but other then that, the Russians are infinitely more experienced in all aspects of aircraft design then India. India has so far had only one flying modern combat aircraft, the LCA, which has been plagued with massive delays and setbacks thought out its long development history.

 

[flateric]

In short, Indians can help with money that never are useless. Pogosyan remark of PAK-FA role as well as of 'future Indian carrier aircraft candidate' make me smile (didn't he just forget about MIG-29K?), but it's just Sukhoi style - trying to push another Sukhoi aircraft everywhere if possible...like it was with rumored attempts to offer navalized Su-24 many light years ago.

 

[medal64]

Do you think will we see the pak-fa pictures before the first flight.And will it share the same cockpit with su35BM?

 

[flateric]

No, you will no see pics before the first flight. This was told many times by industry authorities recently. No, it will not share Frankenstein's off-the-shelf cockpit with Su-35. Installing dozen 40' HDTV in a cockpit doesn't mean good-thought pilot-aircraft interface, as MIG guys remarked at MAKS.

 

[medal64]

What about 2B

 

[medal64]

When will it be sure that how much money will india pay for participation in PAK-FA project.Is it possible that russia accept 2b$ for participation.Total cost of the PAK-FA project will be 10B$ also.

 

[medal64]

interfax news:State to start allocating funds for 5th-generation engine development before yearend.This is a really important step for pak-fa

 

[Ogami musashi]

LOL

 

[flateric]

OK, nobody promised it would be easy...

 

[medal64]

At some forums there are discussions about indian t-50 variant.And people says it will be a just modificated T-50 aircraft.But I don't think as like that.Because indian airforce wants a one engine fitted 5th generation aircraft.For this reason all this aircraft's design must be different from russian version.And for this reason they can work together for indian version.But russian version will be the same and it will take off earlier.But rusaf wil get an option in the future for getting a one engine fitted 5th generation aircraft.

 

[vajt]

At some forums there are discussions about indian t-50 variant.And people says it will be a just modificated T-50 aircraft.But I don't think as like that.Because indian airforce wants a one engine fitted 5th generation aircraft.For this reason all this aircraft's design must be different from russian version.And for this reason they can work together for indian version.But russian version will be the same and it will take off earlier.But rusaf wil get an option in the future for getting a one engine fitted 5th generation aircraft.

That may explain why the Russian version is supposedly flying in 2009 while the Indian one will fly in 2012.

-----JT-----

 

[medal64]

Is there any news about pogosyan and his delegation's New Delhi visit?What are the results?

 

[medal64]

Pogosyan said:India will initially participate in the project mainly financially. But the aircraft will require adaptation to the requirements of Indian Air Force and later -- holding his modernizations. That is the job, that could, we estimate that up to 50% of total works on the project and fulfill the Indian engineers. Does it mean indian version will be more modern or will they use foreign avionics?I wonder about it.Maybe his meaning was national modifications but little confusing.

 

[flateric]

Believe me, Mikhail Aslanovich still doesn't know himself how that Indian PAK-FA would look like. They just need to invent it.

 

[medal64]

Thank you flateric.

 

[medal64]

Indian Air Force is planning to induct stealth technology and super manoeuvrability in its proposed fifth generation fighters to be jointly developed with Russia, Defence Minister A K Antony told the Lok Sabha today.

He said the new generation fighters would be equipped with super cruise missiles, smart weapons and would be network-centric warfare platforms. In a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha, the Minister said officials from Hindustan Aeronautics, IAF and the Russian Sukhoi aviation were meeting here to prepare a detailed project report on the new fighters.

This is maybe the answer of our questions about the avionics.They will produce together and they are saying it will be very advanced.Also they will both use the same avionics.What do you think?

 

[flateric]

Source: "AviaPort site. Ru"
Dmitry Kozlov
Published: 19.11.2007, 10:00

Collaborative work with India would not affect the timetable for the creation of a Russian fighter on the PAK-FA program

Collaborative work with India to build the fifth-generation fighter aircraft would not affect the timetable for the creation of a Russian fighter under the Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces (PAK FA) program. This opinion "have expressed an informed military-industrial complex source in a conversation with a AviaPort. Ru correspondent.

He noted that the creation of PAK FA is acting on the basis of Russia's weapons procurement program until 2015.

"Indian fighter version will differ only by realizing the demands made by the Indian side," emphasized the interlocutor.

Replying to the question of "AviaPort. Ru" of the creation of a so-called "light" PAK-FA version, he said that there will be no 'light' version of PAK FA. "At the time of signing documents on India's participation in the PAK FA program, high-ranked persons stressed in the comments that the signing of the documents raises a point in all the talks about the lightweight version of the PAK FA," explained interlocutor.

In his opinion, the Russian Defense Ministry does not have the funds for the establishment of two types of perspective fighter.

http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2007/11/19/131923.html

 

[medal64]

Is there any news after pogosyan's New Delhi visit.Did they give any reportage to the media.What is the latest situation of the pak fa frient.Is it in tsagi for tests.

 

[medal64]

Pogosyan told at LIMA 2007 first flight of pak-fa will be early 2009 and serial production of the aircraft will be in 2015.

 

[flateric]

Original news in Russian
http://www.sukhoi.org/news/company/?id=1452
Google translation. As always, 'Company 'Dry'=Sukhoi
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sukhoi.org%2Fnews%2Fcompany%2F%3Fid%3D1452&langpair=ru%7Cen&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8

 

[Avimimus]

Well, his first one which makes sense to me. Although he should reconsider those engine intakes and the space between them. Anyway, the PAK-FA will be a canard-delta, i`m certainly sure. The most versatile aerodynamics layout ever seen. The F-22 like design is a dead-end, I doubt Sukhoi ever considered that layout to be used for PAK-Fa.

The F-22 is probably the highest performance interceptor in the world. Its thrust vectoring allows a second pass to be made on a target with almost no turn radius and it accelerates extremely well afterward. If you have well trained pilots then you don't need to have sustained maneuvering capability.

That said, I will venture that it is unlikely that the Russians would do anything that could be construed as copying the United States (out of pride at the very least). The saturn images are certainly plausible (it is nice to finally find out their provenance). The design has reduced aerodynamic control surfaces and very good characteristics in terms of internal volume and wing loading.

The defining factor will be the development schedule's effect on how conservative a design is produced. There are claims (eg. Mukhamedov OKB) that it is possible to aerodynamically sustain turns at up to 55 degrees angle of attack...

 

[flateric]

While Mr.Pogo flew for the second time to Delhi to discuss with our bearded friends what the hell will that Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter be, vice-prime Sergei Ivanov said on Dec., 18 that the first flight is postponed till 2010 ('more likely we will see it in the air in 2010' what lefts some sense of him not being quite sure about it). Hope my grandchildren will see its IOC one day...

 

[rousseau]

Well, his first one which makes sense to me. Although he should reconsider those engine intakes and the space between them. Anyway, the PAK-FA will be a canard-delta, i`m certainly sure. The most versatile aerodynamics layout ever seen. The F-22 like design is a dead-end, I doubt Sukhoi ever considered that layout to be used for PAK-Fa.

The F-22 is probably the highest performance interceptor in the world. Its thrust vectoring allows a second pass to be made on a target with almost no turn radius and it accelerates extremely well afterward. If you have well trained pilots then you don't need to have sustained maneuvering capability.
That said, I will venture that it is unlikely that the Russians would do anything that could be construed as copying the United States (out of pride at the very least). The saturn images are certainly plausible (it is nice to finally find out their provenance). The design has reduced aerodynamic control surfaces and very good characteristics in terms of internal volume and wing loading.
The defining factor will be the development schedule's effect on how conservative a design is produced. There are claims (eg. Mukhamedov OKB) that it is possible to aerodynamically sustain turns at up to 55 degrees angle of attack...

The rudimental purpose of F-22 design is not for making dogfight but the 3F (First looking - First shooting - First killing). The 3F capability does rely on some avioncs superior based on strong technical development of which only US has been taking since 70's last centry none can go ahead. On the other hand, the maneuverability of Raptor was set is condign to some ex-aircraft tested in 80-90's while decades ago, that's why we saw the action F-22 did in airshow just was copied from some Sukhoi fighter had more impressively done ahead.

For the point above, I would agree PAKFA could be something like I.44 and T.50 mixed as foreplan with delta wing for more maneuverable, but considering experience of design tailess delta wing aircraft in Sviet is lacking than British and France, and unlike US has so many resources to make wind channel testing, an opnion against delta wing would be used on PAKFA also is acceptable.

Since the risk to combined T.50 of which orriginal thought from FSW and I.44 of which initail idea out of tailess plus canards is quite big, considering Russian has the tradition of isogeniecgraft to joint F-16 and F-14 to be Su-27, Russia, this time should do something joint F-22 with another. But the key is there is no another could be combined since the source of thought of F-35 came from F-22. So we make the round of problem occured what the PAKFA should be.

If PAKFA merely is a copy of Raptor to be highly maneuverable intercepter, I strongly suspect Russia will get a level same as US of integrating many components minimized into airframe that couldn't be enlarged much than last generation fighters. Then the only way Russia can do is combine the style which was inherited from last gen and the layout referenced from Raptor into PAKFA. Which means, a fighter suppress the superior of avonics out of Raptor by higher maneuverabiliy. The higher maneuverability could be depends on a engine technique that was getting closer to US more possiblly and the aerodynamec layout has already being equal to US.
I will put money on the newest layout revealed by Indian news web.

 

[vajt]

While Mr.Pogo flew for the second time to Delhi to discuss with our bearded friends what the hell will that Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter be, vice-prime Sergei Ivanov said on Dec., 18 that the first flight is postponed till 2010 ('more likely we will see it in the air in 2010' what lefts some sense of him not being quite sure about it). Hope my grandchildren will see its IOC one day...

I hope that we may at least see some real drawings or models in 2008 or 2009.

-----JT-----

 

[flateric]

Once more - several AF officials insisted that a/c images WILL NOT be declassified till the first flight. Rumor over here that Sukhoi was planning to made T-50 model a centerpiece of its MAKS-2007 exposition and that this was restricted by MoD security, is just a myth. Remark on one of forums that 'while being at Sukhoi, I saw a desktop model strikingly close to NPO Saturn drawing' was followed by another - 'In which particular department you were, comrade? At ours, desktop model at the boss table are completely different, and rumors that another one seen at the another executive's table' ;D

 

[flateric]

BTW, even Pogosyan himself doesn't have T-50 model at desktop - they are held in so-called Perviy Otdel (1st Department = Security Dept.) There are 1/50 Berkut kit on the side-table in his office, though, while it's predecessor, S-32, model, interestingly, held in the safe, too.

 

[medal64]

What do you think will T-50's design be completely new or similar to the su47,Mig1.44 or F-22.

 

[Avimimus]

The delta canard design is almost certainly out. My reasoning for this is that the canard increases the forward surface area and thus necessitates a large tail plane (lowering efficiency) and a movement of horizontal cross section aft (making high AOA maneuvers more violent). They also won't copy the pure F-22 layout (both out of pride and because it will be getting out of date).

My predictions:
- no canards or only very small ones to control pitch moment is likely
- The aeroplane will have a fore-aft balance of vertical cross section (important for control in super maneuverability)
- Higher thrust to weight ratio than the F-22 at minimum combat load, but overall a design geared to lift and internal volume
- Small tail planes (with an emphasis on thrust vectoring for control during sharp maneuvers)
- Possibly refinements for lateral high angle of attack maneuvers (this is very speculative)

 

[paralay]

"...А есть слухи что ПАК-ФА является по существу самолет поколения 5 с плюсом
С большой степени достоверности известно что:
- у него самый большой отсек для вооружения из всех стелсов (Ну B-2 явно не в счет
- Если его сравнивать с F-22 и YF-23 то он похож больше на YF-23 ))
Есть также слухи что имеет 360гр азимутальный обзор в X и L диапазоне, а также практически полный круговой ИК обзор. Только слухи ..."

"... And there are hearings that PAKFA the airplane of generation 5 with plus is in essence
From the big confidence figure it is known that:
- At it{him} the biggest bay for arms from all stealths.
- If it{him} to compare with F-22 and YF-23 that it{he} is similar more on YF-23.
There are also hearings that has 360гр the azimuthal review{view} in X and L a range, and also practically full circular IK the review{view}.
Only hearings... "

 

[medal64]

Latest news is here but it's not very clear will the support make for the Indian version or for the both aircraft.The news is abou %20 indian avionic support for sukhoi T-50(PAK-FA) aircraft.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3ab240ccf3-2f4a-4ca6-b5a8-e4098e57413e