South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[panzerskool]

havent read TTHTP for a while but remember Pierre saying the TEL,s were built by Littleton Engineering Works. If so they built at least 7 and must have drawings, pictures etc


Secondly if we built our own TEL,s then I assume that the borrowed ones (MAN or otherwise) were returned. I have read the unspoken alliance which suggests that Israel "lent" SA some Jericos with "special warheads"and TEL,s in the mid 80s in exchange for some titrium. This may confirm the fact that 2 separate types of TEL,s are discussed (the MAN one and the LEW one). In the book the Sampson Opition about Israels bomb, the TEL,s are described as being imported for the first generation Jerricos and locally developed for the later versions.


This adds weight to the assumption that the original TEL,s were borrowed from Isreal and were MAN,s with generation 1 missiles and then SA got the drawings for a locally produced TEL from the Israels and made them at LEW and subsiquentley gave back the borrow missiles and TEL,s.

 

[kaiserbill]

Anybody know what this is? It was listed as a G6 Cruise missile, but perhaps it's a FAE of some type, if it was a real concept? I'm sure the G6 platform in any event was considered for a range of projects, considering its capabilities.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Looks ultra fake to me.

 

[kaiserbill]

I'm inclined to cautiously agree. If anybody knows otherwise though..

 

[kaiserbill]

And on the G6, here is a model of the proposed twin 35mm SPAAG mounted on it's chassis. I think it's the British Marksman, so must be a post Apartheid concept as opposed to the indigineous SPAAG that resulted in the Rooikat SPAAG.

 

[kaiserbill]

Here are other views of the Olifant turret posted by Abraham Gubler in Reply 278 on the last page.

 

[kaiserbill]

Old_rof, any other articles that you can post as mentioned?

Below are two similar vehicles, with small basic differences, that I have labelled as Hippo's. Obviously early to mid 1970's vehicles.
The actual Hippo was one of the earliest of the South African mine-proofed Armoured Personnel Carriers, and were produced starting from the very early 1970's, to the tune of a several hundred, in two variants.
These two vehicles though, are certainly not that Hippo APC, although I suspect that they use Bedford components just as the Hippo APC did. These Bedford components were produced in South Africa, as were Bedford trucks before being replaced by the SAMIL range.

Anybody know anything further about these vehicles below?

 

[kaiserbill]

Okay, this next post is me trying to figure out a few things, and so I'm basically thinking or pondering out aloud.

South Africa were looking at developing the Ratel. As Keith Campbell explains it in his article:

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/south-africas-armoured-vehicle-success-steeped-in-impressive-design-manufacture-history-2008-10-10

The paragraph of interest goes like this:

Meanwhile, the South African Army needed new armoured vehicles for more conventional warfare operations, to replace the Saracens and Elands, and to be able to provide more effective support for the tank force. This programme started in the early 1970s, when the South African Army evaluated four AFVs - the Unimog UR-416 from Germany, the French Panhard M3, the Brazilian Engesa Urutu, and a vehicle from local company Springfield Bussing, confusingly named Buffel. The three foreign designs were all APCs - basically, armoured ‘battle taxis', armed only with a machine gun, which carried troops into battle, at which point they had to disembark to fight. But the South African Army decided to go with a new concept, pioneered by the West German Army - the armoured infantry fighting vehicle (AIFV, but usually referred to in South Africa as IFV). An AIFV carries a powerful gun (20 mm or 30 mm) as well as a squad of troops, who have their own vision ports and firing ports, so that they can fight from within the vehicle. So, around 1975/1976, the South African Army decided to adopt an AIFV based on the Springfield Bussing vehicle.
This became the Ratel (honey badger, in English), which was mass-produced by Sandock Austral. Another monocoque design, the Ratel hulls were made in Sandock.....

My only concern with the above is the dates, as Ratel development was started in 1968, and prototypes already produced by 1974.

Anyway, the Bosbok vehicle in the very first post on page 1 in this thread is clearly the French Panhard M3 APC as noted above. I'd imagine that this Bosbok test vehicle was manufactured in SA, due to the established mass production in South Africa of the similar armoured car called the Eland. (This would explain the small differences as noted in the first post.) The German UR-416 and Brazilian Engesa Urutu are self explanatory.

But what was this Springfield Bussing Buffel prototype, produced in South Africa? This was obviously a vehicle that was a little more than just a APC or battle taxi, and the Ratel was developed from this vehicle.

So does anyone know anything further about this Springfield Bussing Buffel? Some further info or pictures would be really appreciated.

And speculation time here...
I wonder if that 8x8 vehicle as posted in this thread by sa_bushwar on Page 14, Reply 205, and curious george in Reply 209 at the Armour museum in Bloemfontein has anything to do with this? Could this perhaps be this Springfield Bussing Buffel? Or perhaps a competitor test vehicle as part of that second stage? I'd never seen that vehicle before it was posted.

Any opinions or clarifications out there?

 

[Grey Havoc]

The source makes one relatively minor error; the UR-416 was a design from the Rheinstahl Maschinenbau (later Thyssen Maschinenbau) company, based on the chassis of the Mercedes-Benz/Unimog 404 4x4 truck.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

But what was this Springfield Bussing Buffel prototype, produced in South Africa? This was obviously a vehicle that was a little more than just a APC or battle taxi, and the Ratel was developed from this vehicle.

So does anyone know anything further about this Springfield Bussing Buffel? Some further info or pictures would be really appreciated.

And speculation time here...
I wonder if that 8x8 vehicle as posted in this thread by sa_bushwar on Page 14, Reply 205, and curious george in Reply 209 at the Armour museum in Bloemfontein has anything to do with this? Could this perhaps be this Springfield Bussing Buffel? Or perhaps a competitor test vehicle as part of that second stage? I'd never seen that vehicle before it was posted.

Any opinions or clarifications out there?

Surely the first Buffel would be a proto Ratel? If so I doubt it would have much to do with that 8x8 which has a very different configuration to the Ratel. It looks like a Saracen hull that has been lengthened and fitted with a new engine and running gear arrangement.

As to the origins of the Ratel design it bears considerable similarity to the Berliet BL-12. The BL-12, also known as the VXB-170 and VBRG by its major user (French Gendarmes), was first unveiled as a prototype in 1968. The Ratel is effectively a lengthened version fitted with an air cooled engine and two man turret.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Below are two similar vehicles, with small basic differences, that I have labelled as Hippo's. Obviously early to mid 1970's vehicles.

The differences aren’t small they are huge…

The actual Hippo was one of the earliest of the South African mine-proofed Armoured Personnel Carriers, and were produced starting from the very early 1970's, to the tune of a several hundred, in two variants.
These two vehicles though, are certainly not that Hippo APC, although I suspect that they use Bedford components just as the Hippo APC did. These Bedford components were produced in South Africa, as were Bedford trucks before being replaced by the SAMIL range.

Anybody know anything further about these vehicles below?

The two vehicles are the Hippo Mk 1 and the Hippo Mk 2. The Mk 1 on the right is a late version with a more advanced and complete armoured body with windows and firing ports as used on the later Casspir. The vehicle on the left is totally different but was called the Mark 2. It has a monocoque hull and has done away with the Bedford truck’s chassis.

Dr. Vernon Joynt of CSIR (South Arican national science council) conceived the deep 60 degree V concept to defeat mine attack in 1972. The initial vehicles, Camel/Hyena, Hippo, etc, all used armoured capsules mounted on a pre-existing truck chassis (Ford F250, Bedford, etc). Then Rhodesian Ernst Konschel in 1974 took this a step further by utilising the capsule as a monocoque hull to do away with the chassis to save weight and improve resistance to mine blast. So the South Africans applied this advance to the Hippo making the Mk 2 and later the Casspir.

 

[kaiserbill]

The two vehicles are the Hippo Mk 1 and the Hippo Mk 2. The Mk 1 on the right is a late version with a more advanced and complete armoured body with windows and firing ports as used on the later Casspir. The vehicle on the left is totally different but was called the Mark 2. It has a monocoque hull and has done away with the Bedford truck’s chassis.

Dr. Vernon Joynt of CSIR (South Arican national science council) conceived the deep 60 degree V concept to defeat mine attack in 1972. The initial vehicles, Camel/Hyena, Hippo, etc, all used armoured capsules mounted on a pre-existing truck chassis (Ford F250, Bedford, etc). Then Rhodesian Ernst Konschel in 1974 took this a step further by utilising the capsule as a monocoque hull to do away with the chassis to save weight and improve resistance to mine blast. So the South Africans applied this advance to the Hippo making the Mk 2 and later the Casspir.

Thanks for that AB. That makes perfect sense.
I remember climbing in and all over a Hippo APC about 20 years ago now, and remembered certainly that it was different than the two vehicles pictured above. So these are later developments along the path of mine-protected vehicles leading to the Casspir and Buffel. On that note, I have a pic somewhere of the first Casspir prototype, which had differences from the production type.

That original Hippo I climbed all over was basically the same type shown below.

 

[kaiserbill]

Surely the first Buffel would be a proto Ratel? If so I doubt it would have much to do with that 8x8 which has a very different configuration to the Ratel. It looks like a Saracen hull that has been lengthened and fitted with a new engine and running gear arrangement.

As to the origins of the Ratel design it bears considerable similarity to the Berliet BL-12. The BL-12, also known as the VXB-170 and VBRG by its major user (French Gendarmes), was first unveiled as a prototype in 1968. The Ratel is effectively a lengthened version fitted with an air cooled engine and two man turret.

Thanks for the feedback AB.

I must admit I see no real similarity at all with that mystery 8x8 and the Saracen, apart from perhaps the fact that they are front engined. I also don't really see too much similarity between the Berliet BL-12 and the Ratel, apart from some layout ideas regarding the powerpack and drivers position?

What you say about the Springfield Bussing Buffel probably being far more similar to the Ratel than this 8x8 vehicle makes perfect sense. I see your point in it being very, very different to a Ratel. I was just speculating about this 8x8 vehicle after having never seen it before, nor that Spring Buss Buffel that ultimately led to the Ratel. Anybody have any further info/speculation on these two vehicles?

 

[Old_ROF]

kaiserbill
These are the pages from the March 1993 issue. Hope they are of interest.

 

[kaiserbill]

Old_ROF, they are certainly very much of interest!

There is that top view of the Tank Technology Demonstrator turret from an angle I've never seen before.
The Rooikat with the airless tyres I've not seen before.
I've ever only seen a tiny picture of that Ratel with the 35mm turret, which I posted earlier in the thread. This one is much more detailed, and from the side.
The Rooikat IFV: I've ever only seen the vehicle with the Ratel(?) 20mm turret in a tiny picture, from the front. The vehicle as it currently is in Bloemfontein armour museum does not have this turret. This image you have posted makes things much clearer.

All in all, very good stuff. Thanks for posting it up Old_ROF.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Seconded, very interesting documents, especially to large picture of the Rooikat based IFV.

 

[kaiserbill]

I've taken the liberty of cropping some of the more interesting photos from Old_ROF's post, so as to view them a little better perhaps.

First off, the TTD.

 

[kaiserbill]

Next, the Rooikat IFV with turret. The hull/chassis of this vehicle is at The Armour Museum in Bloemfontein. Photos of this can be seen in the Ratel replacement thread here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8883.0.html

The caption is as follows:

"Reumech has been tasked with with developing an Infantry Fighting Vehicle with the mobility to keep pace with the Rooikat. The Path has lead to this demonstrator vehicle based on Rooikat components."

 

[kaiserbill]

The Rooikat with airless tyres. Caption as follows:

"The Rooikat with a South African designed set of airless tyres that have been field tested and provide the operational performance required without compromising road speed."

 

[kaiserbill]

The Ratel fitted with a different turret and a 35mm gun. Caption is as follows:

"The Ratel IFV is in need of replacement as it cannot keep pace with the Rooikat, which will assume many of the roles of fire-support and reconnaissance. Although a replacement is in development, there may still be some additional upgrades (beyond the current Mk3) in its future. Here a Ratel is shown mounting a new 35mm gun and turret arrangement."

 

[kaiserbill]

And the Okapi. Caption as follows:

"The Okapi was originally designed as the command vehicle for artillery units and primarily for the advanced Artillery 2000 system of artillery fire control teamed with the G-6 SPG and the towed G-5 systems."

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #293
As to the origins of the Ratel design it bears considerable similarity to the Berliet BL-12. The BL-12, also known as the VXB-170 and VBRG by its major user (French Gendarmes), was first unveiled as a prototype in 1968.

The Ratel is indeed similar in lay-out to the Berliet and in my opinion the latter vehicle played a significant role in its design. The idea of having an off-set engine in the back in a vehicle with solid axles to allow the overall height to be lower probably originated with the Cadillac Gage V100 Commando which was designed in the early sixties and which saw extensive service in Viet Nam.

The information about the "Springfield-Bussing" vehicle is interesting. I've always wondered why the Bussing engine was chosen for the Ratel while better known companies like MAN and Mercedes were well represented in RSA at that time and both these companies had inline, 6 cylinder diesels similar to the 12 litre Bussing unit. The Ratel did use MAN axles however; the same axles used in the series of MAN tactical trucks used by Germany and several other European armies. The Belgian SIBMAS vehicle was clearly based on the Ratel but used a MAN engine and ZF gearbox instead of the Bussing engine and Renk transmission of the Ratel.

 

[kaiserbill]

On the subject of the various tank turrets, I've had these two images for years.
I'd always assumed them to be the turret type fitted to the TTD, but having a closer look last night, it is clear that this is not the TTD turret.
These are from LIW as far as I know, and are newly built turrets, not a variation on the Olifant turret. It's also not the same turret as fitted to the TTD.

Does anyone know anything further, and for which vehicle this turret type was intended?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Judging by the canted inwards turret basket I would say this turret is probably for a wheeled vehicle like the "Bismarck" wheeled tank. Tanks using torsion bar suspension (like the TTD and SA efforts) tend to have straight sided baskets because their hulls are slab sided. But wheeled AFVs tend to have angled outwards hull sides because of the space demands of their externally mounted suspension and steering gear.

 

[miker]

Reference Post 265, the photos are of the LIW prototype of their proposed 120mm smooth bore MBT turrent & the 105mm, which was the one selected for the Oliphant I guess.

I found these two photos years ago on the FAS site, & that was the caption.

MikeR

 

[kaiserbill]

Miker, are you talking about the 2 turrets above in post 306?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Miker, are you talking about the 2 turrets above in post 306?

I think he got the post # and the number of posts by Kaiserbill crossed. When you posted the picture you were at 265 posts.

 

[miker]

Ja, sorry the two tank turrets were the ones I was refering to.

I think if you look closely you can see one barrel is rifled & one smooth, & generally one has a bigger bore than the other. The smooth is the 120mm.

Anyway the FAS site claimed that was what they were.

What do you guys think?

MikeR

 

[miker]

Here's the link: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/olifant.htm

MikeR

 

[kaiserbill]

Judging by the canted inwards turret basket I would say this turret is probably for a wheeled vehicle like the "Bismarck" wheeled tank. Tanks using torsion bar suspension (like the TTD and SA efforts) tend to have straight sided baskets because their hulls are slab sided. But wheeled AFVs tend to have angled outwards hull sides because of the space demands of their externally mounted suspension and steering gear.

Interesting observation AG.

I've had a look at the only picture of the "Bismarck" with its turret that's out there, which admittedly is very small and indistinct. That turret seems to have straight sides with the 81mm smoke canisters mounted externally, which is unlike those two turret pics above. Those have a protected recess for the smoke canisters? The sighting systems appear different too, and also an angle on the turret roof to the front for a sighting aperture.

That's not to say that turret wasn't destined for it though?

 

[Old_ROF]

Kaiserbill: There is another image here of the Bismarck (post #23) - somewhat bigger, might help. See also post #27.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?118123-Wheeled-armored-vehicles-with-big-guns/page2

Also this one, appears to be the same place but tasken from a different angle.

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/rooikat/p15007-bismark-prototype-for-rooikat-projectsouth-african-army.html

 

[kaiserbill]

Old_ROF, those pics of the Bismarck in the links you posted are at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein, where it has been fitted with an Olifant Mk1B tank turret. That Olifant Mk1B turret still in fact has the spare track links on the back of the turret.
This I believe was used for weight trials of some sort, so is not the turret that was meant for the Bismarck, as pictured in my previous post. Perhaps this was an early Olifant Mk1B turret fitted for these trials...

Below is a picture where you can see this Olifant Mk1B turret with track links at the rear which would be found on a tracked tank, as is currently on the Bismarck hull at the Armour Museum.

 

[kaiserbill]

Here is the front view of the Bismark as fitted with an Olifant Mk1B turret. This is at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein, and the Rooikat Infantry Fighting Vehicle hull can be made out to the right..

 

[dan_inbox]

Below are two similar vehicles, with small basic differences, that I have labelled as Hippo's. Obviously early to mid 1970's vehicles.
The actual Hippo was one of the earliest of the South African mine-proofed Armoured Personnel Carriers, and were produced starting from the very early 1970's, to the tune of a several hundred, in two variants.
These two vehicles though, are certainly not that Hippo APC, although I suspect that they use Bedford components just as the Hippo APC did. These Bedford components were produced in South Africa, as were Bedford trucks before being replaced by the SAMIL range.

Anybody know anything further about these vehicles below?

I think that this thing was called "Kwevoel".

 

[kaiserbill]

Dan, the Kwevoel, whilst looking superficially similar, is a completely different vehicle based on the SAMIL 20, 50, and 100 vehicle range. For example, here is the Kwevoel 100 recovery vehicle based on the SAMIL 100 heavy truck.

 

[kaiserbill]

I'm aware that Namibia is now a seperate country, but before the end of Apartheid, the then SWA it was basically a province of South Africa, with central funding and planning from Pretoria, much like any other South African province. (schools, roads, education, military service, passports etc.) So I'm going to include the following in this thread.

The Wolf was a powerful vehicle developed in Windhoek to replace the Casspir in theatre. There was a 6x6 vehicle called the Sterk Hans (Strong Hans) that was developed from the 4X4 Wolf. Does anyone know what happened to it? I've heard from another source that it was a very capable vehicle indeed. Are there any other photo's or information out there about this? It is the vehicle in the attachment on the bottom right.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post # 319.
Afaik the Wolfs are still in service in the Namibian Army. I suppose Sterk Hans (one or more) will also still be in use.

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to post # 319.
Afaik the Wolfs are still in service in the Namibian Army. I suppose Sterk Hans (one or more) will also still be in use.

So were they actually produced? (The 6x6 Sterk Hans I mean.)

I've never heard anything nor seen a picture about the Sterk Hans apart from what is posted above. It was, according to the writeup above, the first monocoque 6x6 mine-protected vehicle in the world.

EDIT: I see they actually said first monocoque 6x6 armoured mine-protected recovery vehicle. The Ratel obviously predates this vehicle by a decade or more.

 

[Apophenia]

kaiserbill: when they say 'mine-protected', I'm sure they mean a designed-as-such MPV. So, call 'Sterk Hans' the first 6x6, Casspir-style, V-hulled ARV.

BTW, another WMF Wolf derivative (Wolf Turbo III, in this case) was the Mine Killer prototype. Built by MWF at the behest of Vernon Joynt, Mine Killer wasn't especially successful as built and was shipped to Mechem for further tweaking.

After a period in the weeds, Mine Killer eventually led circuitously to the Force Protection Buffalo. But before that, a 4x4 evolution of Mine Killer emerged as the well-known WMF Wer'wolf. All of these mine-resistant vehicles had Mechem involvement at some point so still qualify as "South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.".

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks Apo.

I must admit that when I first saw the Force Protection Buffalo, the Sterk Hans immediately sprang to mind.

By the way, the only other WMF Wolf 6x6 vehicle I've seen is this one below. It doesn't appear to be the Sterk Hans as there are too many differences, not least of which is the rear axle spacing.