South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[curious george]

Some (weird and wonderful) limited edition mine resistent vehicles...(apologies if any are repost!)

 

[kaiserbill]

Some interesting vehicles in there indeed, Curious George.

Post 364, the post just above this:

1st picture, the beige vehicle, is a vehicle that was based on the Toyota Landcruiser. I saw one of them deployed in the violence in Kwa-Zulu Natal in around 1990. The cab is armoured and mine-proofed.

2nd photo shows the Hyena. 221 were built from 1972, so don't really count as a prototype. It was the first mine protected troop transporter taken into service.

3rd photo is the Hippo APC as discussed already. About 300 were built from around the same time as the Hyena ie: early 1970's.

4th photo seems to be a development of the Rooikat from 1981, which was a conversion for civilians based on the Ford F100 I think.
This one looks different though, and seems to have features of the vehicle in photo 1 as opposed to the normal Rooikat.

5th photo, the camoflaged vehicle, I'm not sure of. The name Swerwe seems to be distantly ringing bells in my head. I wonder if it was not a full armoured development of the Ribbok vehicle developed during the 1970's?

The other vehicles in the rest of the photos in your post above I've not seen before.

Post 362 on this page shows 3 additional photos of the 6X6 Okapi. Photo's of this vehicle are rare. I've never seen those before.
The Ratel EW in the same post appears to use the hull of a Ratel 81 Mortar vehicle. Fascinating.

 

[kaiserbill]

CG, as I'm sure you know, your Posts 357 and 359 shows the Ingwe.
I too do not know how many of these were produced.

As far as I can ascertain, Sandock Austral completed development of the Ingwe relatively rapidly in the 1980's, after which a small batch was manufactured for trials with the SA Army in 1986. Apart from this small batch, it has been mentioned that perhaps a small batch was also sold to mining companies as security vehicles. It was a 13 ton monocoque vehicle, and utilised MAN axles and transmission, and a turbo charged ADE352T engine.
So I'd imagine that from these 2 small trial batches, you would have seen some exported when there was an urgent need for vehicles of this type by some in a Middle Eastern country recently?

 

[kaiserbill]

Some interesting vehicles in there indeed, Curious George.

Post 364, the post just above this:

1st picture, the beige vehicle, is a vehicle that was based on the Toyota Landcruiser. I saw one of them deployed in the violence in Kwa-Zulu Natal in around 1990. The cab is armoured and mine-proofed.

2nd photo shows the Hyena. 221 were built from 1972, so don't really count as a prototype. It was the first mine protected troop transporter taken into service.

3rd photo is the Hippo APC as discussed already. About 300 were built from around the same time as the Hyena ie: early 1970's.

4th photo seems to be a development of the Rooikat from 1981, which was a conversion for civilians based on the Ford F100 I think.
This one looks different though, and seems to have features of the vehicle in photo 1 as opposed to the normal Rooikat.

5th photo, the camoflaged vehicle, I'm not sure of. The name Swerwe seems to be distantly ringing bells in my head. I wonder if it was not a full armoured development of the Ribbok vehicle developed during the 1970's?

This camoflaged vehicle appears to be called the Kudu. It was a monocoque design based on Land Rover running gear. 4 seated in the back in staggered outward facing seats I think, with a driver up front. designed for light patrol tasks, I have no idea whether it was actually produced beyond trials vehicles?

Which does leave a similar looking, but larger vehicle out there called the Swerwe or Swerwer, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.

 

[kaiserbill]

Apophenia, I think you mean the Rhino? The Rhino was a similarly sized vehicle also based on Samil components, and was produced in limited numbers for the SAAF. As far as I know, they are from similar timeframe in the early 1980's. See below pictures. Note that the last picture is a different type with 3 windows instead of 2, yet the spacings remain the same, implying a longer body.

If the Bulldog was taken into service, I would be very interested in anything you may know about it.

That from page 1 of this thread.

Just some additional info on the Rhino.

As stated, it was designed specifically for the South African Air Force to fulfill the airbase defence role. They are very rare as a result, as not many were made. From all indications, it is vehicle of particular high quality. Based on SAMIL 20 truck components, it is 5,7m long, 2,9m high, 2,4m wide, with a mass of 7,7 tons and a speed of 90 km/h. Powered by a Deutz 93kW engine. A monocoque design, it has a crew of 6 men and a driver.

This is included as I've never seen stats for this vehicle until very recently.

 

[Rickshaw]

All these vehicles appear exceptionally high. How stable were they, particularly at speed?

 

[kaiserbill]

Some were better than others.

The Buffel was less stable than the Casspir for example.
You'd have to be an idiot to turn over a Casspir, seeing as an anti tank mine couldn't do so. I speak from experience about these 2 vehicles. The Casspir was a far superior vehicle, but then it was designed later by a much larger scientific concern, the CSIR, with all the brains and funding inherent to such organisations. The drivers of certain vehicles, such as the Buffel for example, were trained to master their vehicles, good points and bad points, just like a driver of any vehicle.

Remember that these vehicles were designed for a specific purpose, and were pioneering vehicles that defeated (or tamed as one author desribed it) the landmine. This in many instances almost 40 years ago. The technology matured as development was ongoing. The technology has been instrumental in reducing deaths and casualties by a magnitude in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[curious george]

Some more of the lesser spotted:

Eland 20mm,think most will be familiar with the Irish Army's "AML 20"'s.(2nd pic,how about some wild speculation as I'm not familiar with the turretring sizes, or whether its possible even,etc,BUT how about maybe the SADF swopped out Eland90 turrets for Ratel20's.My reasoning,to get as many 90mm armed ratels into the field very quickly?Lets say late 80's and Cuban buildup in Angola?(I honestly dont know,and thats how I would've written the script lol).How many 20mm Eland were tested,or ever fielded?

Mamba swb,proto only/how many?

Samil20 based?I saved it as "wolf",no ref to Koevoet's Wolf by WMF.

SAPS Special Task Force weapons carrier pics

 

[CostasTT]

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10150579901205797&type=1


Thanks for the link. Besides the Unimogs, what else did they use? Land Rovers or Land Cruisers? With all the mods it's difficult to identify the base vehicle.

Hi Costas,according to Graham Gilmore's book,"Pathfinder Company:the Philistines", they rebuilt/modified both types.

Thank you. Much appreciated.

 

[kaiserbill]

Some more of the lesser spotted:

Eland 20mm,think most will be familiar with the Irish Army's "AML 20"'s.(2nd pic,how about some wild speculation as I'm not familiar with the turretring sizes, or whether its possible even,etc,BUT how about maybe the SADF swopped out Eland90 turrets for Ratel20's.My reasoning,to get as many 90mm armed ratels into the field very quickly?Lets say late 80's and Cuban buildup in Angola?(I honestly dont know,and thats how I would've written the script lol).How many 20mm Eland were tested,or ever fielded?

You've actually speculated perfectly correctly.

The Irish AML 20's are in fact equipped with a Ratel 20 turret, supplied by South Africa. The Irish replaced their 12,7mm Mg's and 60mm mortar turrets with the turret from South Africa. LIW supplied 16 turrets to the Irish Army in 1999, complete with their Fire Detecting System (FDS) for light turrets. A further 16 FDS systems were supplied to equip Irelands AML-90's.

That SAMIL "Wolf" looks very much SAMIL 20 based. I've never seen it before either.

Below is the Irish AML with Ratel 20 turret.

 

[kaiserbill]

For interests sake, the dark green vehicle in your first 4 photos on this page, the Recce ones, is called the Tapir.

A monocoque design that could seat 4 or 5 up front, with a weapons platform or transport area at the hull rear.
Also Atlantis Diesel Engine (ADE) powered, 138kW, 90km/h. Length 7,1m, width 2,46m, height 3m, weight 14,5tons. Can withstand 2 TM-57 anti-tank mines used together.

Again, these vehicles are now available on the open market. At least one has been demining in Afghanistan according to pictures and their captions. I have no idea how many were produced, but it can't be that many.

 

[kaiserbill]

You know what?

I'm beginning to wonder if the Tapir 4X4 and the Okapi 6X6 command vehicle are of the same family. Sure, there are differences, but also a lot of similarities. It looks like maybe the Okapi is a stretched, modified/modernised Tapir? Or perhaps the Okapi came first? Certainly the Okapi has a different grill layout at front, but could this be a result of a more powerful engine fitted to the bigger 6X6 vehicle?

Or maybe because they are from the same company, there are only similarities in the front armour layout?

 

[curious george]

I concur,there seem to be family genes...

 

[curious george]

Other projects:

Cactus off course belonging to the SAAF but hey..

and on the AA topic,"Sable" project.

 

[curious george]

Dunno if I missed these,but it seems like these Rooikat proto pics,have not been posted yet?

Mamba field ambulance proto only?

Ferret conversion for para brigade,not sure if this went into service.

"Esoteric" Ratel with mineplough with 61 Mech.

 

[kaiserbill]

Your first pic on this page seems to be a containerised Cactus SAM firing unit with optics as well?

 

[curious george]

Your first pic on this page seems to be a containerised Cactus SAM firing unit with optics as well?

I've enquired over at www.saairforce.co.za in the thread realated to 250 ADAG,so lets hope.....

 

[curious george]

Oddball and "esoteric":

 

[curious george]

Oddballs and "esoterics" (cont):

 

[curious george]

"Spinnekop",apologies for reposts:

 

[HeavyG]

That "Spinnekop" looks pretty extreme...

 

[curious george]

That "Spinnekop" looks pretty extreme...

Yep,I agree,even today-now,imagine back in the 70's way before "mine resistent" vehicles became "normal" to us in SA. Maybe someone here will have knowledge of their "operational effectiveness",etc.

 

[kaiserbill]

That "Spinnekop" looks pretty extreme...

Yep,I agree,even today-now,imagine back in the 70's way before "mine resistent" vehicles became "normal" to us in SA. Maybe someone here will have knowledge of their "operational effectiveness",etc.

The Spinnekop (Spider) was actually a radical vehicle. The Milton mine detecting sensors, rakes, and stabilisor arms were hydraulically operated, and indeed, the vehicle itself used a hydraulic propulsion, with an engine and pump in the hull driving hydraulic motors in the wheels. The vehicle could lose individual legs without serious damage, with the hydraulic pipes being designed to seal when they were sheared off. (In fact, maybe this is what pic2 in post 383 is illustrating?). 2X2, 4X4, or 6X6 drive could be selected.

It came about as a fast moving mine detection vehicle, was developed by 1979, and although trials were moderately successful and 19 were built, it proved complicated to operate and was not very reliable, and so was withdrawn from service. In its way, this concept led to the Meerkat vehicle/Chubby System that has recently been bought by the USA and known to them as the Husky.

Post 325 on page 22 of this thread has some pics as well some technical specs.

It also has the description of that vehicle you have posted in pics 3 and 4 of post 381 above by Curious George. This was the Hotnotsgod (Praying Mantis), and was another interesting vehicle which could be remote controlled, either by cable or radio control from half a kilometer away. 13 were made during the 1970's.

 

[curious george]

F/book find:

 

[kaiserbill]

Great find Curious George.

A little while back, not many knew what the LZN looked like.

Just in this thread alone, there are now at least 6 pictures, old and new.
That is one big truck. Look at the scale of the people alongside.

I wonder what the story with that LZN and the fire department is? Does anyone know how many LZN's were built?

 

[curious george]

Nearly missed this one:Ratel 72A (61 Mech or 4SAI,& not sure if a 20?) during ops Modular '87. (Also from f/book)

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=o.226376338364&type=1

 

[curious george]

Great find Curious George.

A little while back, not many knew what the LZN looked like.

Just in this thread alone, there are now at least 6 pictures, old and new.
That is one big truck. Look at the scale of the people alongside.

I wonder what the story with that LZN and the fire department is? Does anyone know how many LZN's were built?

According to the caption it belonged to the Sandton FD,close to 6k pics in the group "grensoorlog / border war 1966-1989",so not posting link as it will kill your bandwidth!

Another pic from a book:

 

[curious george]

Your first pic on this page seems to be a containerised Cactus SAM firing unit with optics as well?

I've enquired over at www.saairforce.co.za in the thread realated to 250 ADAG,so lets hope.....

"CheetahSupporter" writes:"When I was around Teklogic / ADS in 1992 or 1993, they were fitting the cactus equipment into containers. I seem to remember the reason (or part of the reason) was that the original French vehicles were really unreliable or unsupportable.

I don't know if they only did a prototype or whether all systems were converted"

 

[Rickshaw]

They were very odd looking vehicles with IIRC electric drives, so its not surprising that the SAAF found it difficult to source spares.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Improvement of the G6 being considered; able to cross 2.2m trench.

 

[HeavyG]

Looks like an additional axle was added to the vehicle. From what I understand, the original G6 vehicle was derived from the Ratel.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Improvement of the G6 being considered; able to cross 2.2m trench.

SA Army or export?

 

[Sea Skimmer]

Looks like an additional axle was added to the vehicle. From what I understand, the original G6 vehicle was derived from the Ratel.

I don’t’ think it is, I’ve read before it was based on the chassis of a large rough terrain crane and that because of this its performance was never totally satisfactory but this allowed it to be rushed into combat in Angola. Ratel is under half the loaded weight of G6, it’s hard to think any part of its running gear would be suitable for a much larger vehicle.

 

[kaiserbill]

Looks like an additional axle was added to the vehicle. From what I understand, the original G6 vehicle was derived from the Ratel.

I don’t’ think it is, I’ve read before it was based on the chassis of a large rough terrain crane and that because of this its performance was never totally satisfactory but this allowed it to be rushed into combat in Angola. Ratel is under half the loaded weight of G6, it’s hard to think any part of its running gear would be suitable for a much larger vehicle.

There is no commonality or relationship between the Ratel and G6 at all.

I also read an article way back that stated it was based on a crane basis, but as the article contained other glaring errors, I've not put any credence onto that idea.
I've never heard a single complaint about the G-6 vehicles performance either.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Improvement of the G6 being considered; able to cross 2.2m trench.

This picture looks dubious. For one it’s of the same style as those ‘2nd generation Ratel’ pictures with the miraculously small turrets. For two the G6 does not need improved trench crossing. With the T6-52 stand alone turret you can stick this ordnance onto any hull so why rebuild an existing hull with a range of limitations enhanced by cutting the volume of the engine bay in half just to get an extra meter or so of trench crossing?

Looks like an additional axle was added to the vehicle. From what I understand, the original G6 vehicle was derived from the Ratel.

The only thing the G6 shares with the Ratel is a similar appearance to the armoured windows for the driver. The design of the G6 was inspired by Canadian logging vehicles which also provided the wheels. The rest is a pretty convention combination of armoured vehicle and truck design. The lead design agent (configuration) was Gerald Bull’s SRC who also provided the design to Iraq for their Al Majnoon 155mm and Al Fao 210mm SPGs. The prototypes for these SPGs were built in Spain which seems to align with the South African – Spanish thing that was going on in the late 70s, 1980s.

 

[kaiserbill]

Improvement of the G6 being considered; able to cross 2.2m trench.

This picture looks dubious. For one it’s of the same style as those ‘2nd generation Ratel’ pictures with the miraculously small turrets. For two the G6 does not need improved trench crossing. With the T6-52 stand alone turret you can stick this ordnance onto any hull so why rebuild an existing hull with a range of limitations enhanced by cutting the volume of the engine bay in half just to get an extra meter or so of trench crossing?

Looks like an additional axle was added to the vehicle. From what I understand, the original G6 vehicle was derived from the Ratel.

The only thing the G6 shares with the Ratel is a similar appearance to the armoured windows for the driver. The design of the G6 was inspired by Canadian logging vehicles which also provided the wheels. The rest is a pretty convention combination of armoured vehicle and truck design. The lead design agent (configuration) was Gerald Bull’s SRC who also provided the design to Iraq for their Al Majnoon 155mm and Al Fao 210mm SPGs. The prototypes for these SPGs were built in Spain which seems to align with the South African – Spanish thing that was going on in the late 70s, 1980s.

I too was wondering at that 8X8 G6's similarity to the other drawings, as well as wondering why the G6 would need to improve it's already formidable off road performance or such a large vehicle.

Interesting about the logging vehicle.
I had in the past looked at Bell earth moving equipment, a South African company that exports their heavy wheeled vehicles globally, including Canada, USA, and Europe, and wondered whether they had a part to play in the G6 chassis, which is, after all, a very large, heavy wheeled vehicle.

 

[Sea Skimmer]

I also read an article way back that stated it was based on a crane basis, but as the article contained other glaring errors, I've not put any credence onto that idea.
I've never heard a single complaint about the G-6 vehicles performance either.

I’ve seen a few random complaints that may not be credible; but then I've and never much in the way of specific endorsement either that wasn't just manufacturer marketing sort of stuff. Actual reports on the vehicles in the field is not something I am familiar with. Just offhand, the general flow of military designs has never much favored three axle off road vehicles without at least evenly spacing the axles, though I can understand why it would be done if it had to be three to support the turret. It probably helps that South Africa has a minimal mud problem, same for the ones sold to gulf states. But still, if the design wasn't based off any specific existing chassis I don't really see why they wouldn't have gone with four axles in the first place? Better fuel economy I guess; but that wouldn't be that significant particularly if you just had a transfer case to cut power to a couple of axles as needed.

 

[miker]

I saw the original G6s in the bush for Modular, 3 vehicles I think. They were fine mechanically as I recall, but they were too wide & tracked outside the tracks made by the majority of SADF vehicles then in service. This is a bigger problem than it sounds, but the crews soldiered on & the huge bull bar that held extra ammo just had to take more "stick," [pardon the pun] & bundu bash a wider track.
[/size]
[/size] One vehicle had problems with the guns recoil system, so it only fired for a small part of their deployment.
[/size]
[/size] I spoke with the crews, they were happy with the beast, and beast it is, it's a huge bit of kit when you stand beside it.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Interesting about the logging vehicle.
I had in the past looked at Bell earth moving equipment, a South African company that exports their heavy wheeled vehicles globally, including Canada, USA, and Europe, and wondered whether they had a part to play in the G6 chassis, which is, after all, a very large, heavy wheeled vehicle.

This story is from the book “Arms and the Man: Dr. Gerald Bull, Iraq and the Supergun” by William Lowther. Apparently when they were working for the South Africans in the 1970s SRC responded to Project Zenubla (for a SP version of the G5) with a wheeled vehicle. SRC’s plant was located on the border between the US and Canada in amongst a forestry area (it was a firing range) and they convinced the South Africans that a SPG could be wheeled by showing them some big wheeled forestry vehicles.

I don’t know what the forestry vehicle was but the Volvo 860 is a possibility. This vehicle has evolved into the A30 used in the Swedish Archer gun and uses the same sized tires as the G6 and is a 6x6 vehicle with a GVW of around 40 tonnes. These high flotation articulated trucks are what Bell started to build in the mid 1980s and apart from providing a commercial market (or sanctions busting cover for importation) for the big tyres are unlikely to have much to do with the G6.

 

[thebig C]

Improvement of the G6 being considered; able to cross 2.2m trench.

SA Army or export?

Haha....I'l bet you would love some of these for the Cav Corps!! We STILL haven't replaced the AML 90s!