South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

DFS 228, thanks for the update and i feel privelaged to have got my ORIGIONAL PRINT, of those who had the power. It was sent to me in the Middle East a few years ago along with all 7 issues of VEG which is with out a doubt the best mag I have seen in along time and something all people here would love to get their hands on.

Some feedback form an avid reader is there should be more real photos of TEL as most are pierres drawings which are amazing but real life colour pics just make them more real. things like were they ever painted in camo? any pics or more into on the tunnels they were stored in?

I also met someone in Australia whos dad worked ( as a civil engineer) on what he described as silos at Langaban AFB. Said they were for long range missules and this was told to me like 12 years ago before my real facination with these started.Was never mentioned in the book and something Im sure might still be a secret.

As for the photo refered too, which plate #?
 
Apologies thebig C, I should have mentioned that the MLZN pics I mentioned where posted by SA_Bushwar in post number 187. Good point on the naval stuff, I will raise this as a point with the team. I do remember a drawing of one of our Daphne subs showing where 2 cruise missiles were supposedly situated, with a section forward of the sail (fin) raised ready to fire said cruise missiles.

Panzerschool, I was told (by one of the TEL/MLZN designers) that the vehicles were not based on the Spanish Aljaba as suggested by someone in a earlier post, so too the wheels are definitely not those of the G-6. My further understanding is that two TEL's where moved around the country at the time, one disguised as a Coca-Cola truck and the other as a vegtable truck. I believe that 7 were made (TEL) and that they were sent out of country, when we opened up about our nuclear program and showed of the 6 (+1 half built) nuclear devices we had (certainly not the full picture in terms of our nuclear capability...).

I have yet to see a pic of the TEL, my understanding is also that to publish such pics anyway would seriously upset certain people (I am a scale plastic modeller, so understand your want for pics). BTW the TEL drawings as published in the first print were also purposely a little incorrect, we might look at rectifying that as part of our new reprint.

Interesting on the info from the guy in Australia, if he has hard facts of any sort I would be very interested (it must be factually backed up whenever you want to print something of this nature). The book describes missile silos being based within the mountains of Lohatla.

I will also talk at a later stage how practically all the current MRAP vehicles out there are actually South African designs, or had massive input by South African institutions/people etc, however I need to find some old notes/info first and sit and write a nice story around them.

I must point out that my military interests are so vast and wide that for me to get into specific detail about drives trains, chassis etc is perhaps a little beyond me :-[.
 
DFS 228 said:
I will also talk at a later stage how practically all the current MRAP vehicles out there are actually South African designs, or had massive input by South African institutions/people etc, however I need to find some old notes/info first and sit and write a nice story around them.
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Which themselves were all based on the mine and ambush protected vehicle concept developed in Rhodesia.
 
Some definitive information on SA Army tank numbers. 203 Centurion Mks 3 and 5 supplied in the 1950s from the UK (Mk 3s quickly upgraded to Mk 5 via replacement of Besa MGs with Browning MGs). 17 Centurion ARV Mk 2s also supplied. Sold to Switzerland were 100 Centurion Mk 5s and 10 ARV Mk 2s.

Additional Centurion Mk 5 acquisition from Jordan and India resulting in a total force after upgrade activity of 224 Olifant Mks 1A and 1B, 16 Olifant ARV Mks 1 and Mk 1A (including nine converted from gun tanks) and 2 Olifant AVLB. Meaning at least 132 Centurions were acquired in the 1970s and 80s.
 
Abraham, thanks for the writeups regarding the Olifant. Very interesting indeed.
 
DFS228, welcome aboard. Any contribution on the topic is most appreciated.

I read Those who had the Power. I realise the original book had to, by nature, put details in a "speculative nature" type of way. I assume this was done on purpose?

Will any further solid information on the Carver be forthcoming? I found the Carver info in the original book to be perhaps a little too generalised, and mostly, but not all, from open source material. It has been 20 years now, so let's hope more info is released.
 
Reply to post #244
I will also talk at a later stage how practically all the current MRAP vehicles out there are actually South African designs, or had massive input by South African institutions/people etc, however I need to find some old notes/info first and sit and write a nice story around them.

I believe that there are South Africans involved with the Force Protection company in the US and there may be with ADI in Australia (builders of the Bushmaster but to state that all MRAP vehicles out there are South African designs or "had massive South African input" may be a bit of an exageration. The basic principles of wheeled MRAP vehicles were most certainly developed in the RSA but it isn't rocket science and any competent manufacturer of armoured vehicles can copy these design principles in vehicles of their own once they have had a good look at a Casspir or a RG31, for instance. A profusion of MRAPs are now appearing everywhere and it seems highly unlikely to me that there are South Africans working in all these companies or that South Africans designed all of these vehicles.
 
If I am not mistaken, I believe that the Bushmaster was based on the Irish company Timoney's design. Anyone know more?
 
Something like this:

Abraham Gubler said:
Herman said:
The Bushmaster has seen extensive service with Australian and Dutch forces in Afghanistan and seems to be highly regrarded by the users.
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And the UK SAS TF Black in Iraq. The armour design leadership on the Bushmaster was provided by South African émigrés. The initial protection design provided by the Irish company Timoney failed the testing and it had to be redesigned.
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Reply to post #251
If I am not mistaken, I believe that the Bushmaster was based on the Irish company Timoney's design. Anyone know more?

The Timoney APC was designed and developed by Technology Investments Ltd, in Ireland, during the early seventies. They built about 100 of these vehicles for the Irish government and the vehicle was licenced to Beherman Demoen in Belgium who built a number of vehicles for the Belgian government. The suspension developed for the Timoney APC was, I believe, later licenced to Oshkosh and they developed the TAK 4 suspension from this. The Timoney was a wheeled APC; it was not designed as a MRAP vehicle. The MRAP concept barely existed at that time. It therefore lacked the mine resistance which is an essential part of a modern MRAP vehicle.

How much the Bushmaster has in common with the Timoney is not quite clear to me but the similarity seems to be quite tenuous. The Bushmaster uses the TAK 4 suspension or a suspension derived from the TAK 4, otherwise, it is very different from the Timoney. The layout is different and the hull shape is totally different. In view of the enormous number of South African emigres in Australia, it seems quite feasible that there was South African input in the design of the Bushmaster.
 
The Bushmaster was based on Timoney's MP44 prototype. (MP44 = Mine-Protected + 4x4 - there was also a later stretched, 6x6 MP66 demonstrator). Perry Engineering (later ADI) refined the Timoney design with assistance from Stewart & Stevenson to meet LAND 116. The real South African connection with LAND 116 was the Mamba-derived Taipan from Australian Specialised Vehicle Systems (ASVS).

On the marketing side, the 'Bushie' puzzles me. Independant suspensions are de riguer for MRAP refits and trendy for latest models. So why was Bushmaster shut out of North American MRAP competitions?
 
Herman said:
In view of the enormous number of South African emigres in Australia, it seems quite feasible that there was South African input in the design of the Bushmaster.[/color]
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Its not just feasible its factual. I was there, meet them, I could post their names but that wouldn't be so appropiate.
 
Apophenia said:
The Bushmaster was based on Timoney's MP44 prototype. (MP44 = Mine-Protected + 4x4 - there was also a later stretched, 6x6 MP66 demonstrator). Perry Engineering (later ADI) refined the Timoney design with assistance from Stewart & Stevenson to meet LAND 116. The real South African connection with LAND 116 was the Mamba-derived Taipan from Australian Specialised Vehicle Systems (ASVS).
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Perry Engineering sold their Bushmaster bid to ADI who later had to redesign the whole thing to meet the mine blast standards. Stewart & Stevenson just provided the engine and transmission support. The powerpack is mounted on a special jig so it can be replaced in minutes and this needed quite a bit of design work.

Apophenia said:
On the marketing side, the 'Bushie' puzzles me. Independant suspensions are de riguer for MRAP refits and trendy for latest models. So why was Bushmaster shut out of North American MRAP competitions?
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It didn't meet the spec. It didn't have side hatches for the driver and it wasn't left hand drive. Changing to left hand drive was the big problem, not because of the steering wheel and gear stick but because of the windscreen wipers. Yep the windscreen wipers scuttled Oshkosh and ADIs chance to build thousands of monocoque hulled MRAPs for the US Forces.
 
Reply to post #256
It didn't meet the spec. It didn't have side hatches for the driver and it wasn't left hand drive. Changing to left hand drive was the big problem, not because of the steering wheel and gear stick but because of the windscreen wipers. Yep the windscreen wipers scuttled Oshkosh and ADIs chance to build thousands of monocoque hulled MRAPs for the US Forces.

Interesting. I read that it did not meet the specs but it wasn't specified why. The Dutch army Bushmasters are also right-hand drive. The Dutch urgently needed MRAPS for use in Afghanistan. They initially wanted to buy RG 31s, having used a number on loan from the Canadians, but orders were backed up for many months. They then acquired the Bushmasters directly off the production line for the Australian army. The Australians were obviously very keen to provide the vehicles as the Dutch order was the first export order for the Bushmaster.
 
Herman said:
They then acquired the Bushmasters directly off the production line for the Australian army. The Australians were obviously very keen to provide the vehicles as the Dutch order was the first export order for the Bushmaster.
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The initial batch were supplied from ADF stocks not from the production line. The impetus for rapid supply was not commercial, the Australian Govt. and ADF cares very little for overseas sales, but because the ADF was deploying a PRT alongside the Dutch battlegroup in Afghanistan.

If anyone wants to rapidly acquire Bushmasters now is the time. The ADF has hundreds sitting around they can't issue to units. They haven't been fitted with the radio wiring system because the OEM stopped making them and the Australian procurement authority hasn't sourced a replacement... Madness.
 
Reply to podt #259
The initial batch were supplied from ADF stocks not from the production line. The impetus for rapid supply was not commercial, the Australian Govt. and ADF cares very little for overseas sales, but because the ADF was deploying a PRT alongside the Dutch battlegroup in Afghanistan.

I stand corrected. I had read that the vehicles came off the production line and I just assumed that the willingness of the Australians to provide the cars at such short notive was due to commercial considerations. From all reports I have heard, we (the Dutch) are very satisfied with the vehicles and several, small additional batches have been procured since the initial buy, both to replace lost vehicles and to increase numbers.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
It didn't meet the spec. It didn't have side hatches for the driver and it wasn't left hand drive. Changing to left hand drive was the big problem, not because of the steering wheel and gear stick but because of the windscreen wipers. Yep the windscreen wipers scuttled Oshkosh and ADIs chance to build thousands of monocoque hulled MRAPs for the US Forces.
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Hmm. The Bushmaster was withdrawn from Canada's TAPV contest reportedly because the RfP favoured a smaller vehicle (5 seat than 10), with a tighter turning circle, and an emphasis on urban patrol rather than IED armour protection.

That'd make sense if it weren't for some of the remain candidates -- eg: the Force Protection Timberwolf (a 'Canadianized' ISAS Cougar 6x6) and (for some South African content) the BAE RG35 RPU. And the Bushmaster was too big?

The striking thing about the TAPV Bushmaster offer was that it would have been assembled in Canada - presumably with left-hand steering and 'right-way' wipers. AFAIK, none of the competitors were offering local assembly.

Then there's basic marketing. For the Bushmaster's launch at CANSEC 2010, Thales Canada and DEW Engineering thought it would be clever to have their top suits deliver speeches in front of an ADF Bushies with a black maple leaf added. Yep, killer pitch!

ps: the Dutch Ministry of Defence was one of those saying that their Bushmasters came from ADF orders rolling down the production line. Maybe Defensie was just trying to maintain the illusion of a 'new car smell'?
 
Apophenia said:
presumably with left-hand steering and 'right-way' wipers. AFAIK, none of the competitors were offering local assembly.
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Bushmasters now have ambidextorous wipers. Two medium ones rather than one big one and one small one.

Apophenia said:
ps: the Dutch Ministry of Defence was one of those saying that their Bushmasters came from ADF orders rolling down the production line. Maybe Defensie was just trying to maintain the illusion of a 'new car smell'?
Click to expand...

They were new from the non issued stock. Some of them may have come off the production line as there were a few batches but the first batch were from the Army's stock after they had taken delivery from ADI and before they had been issued to units.
 
Guys more on our own past not someone elses future.

Keen to know more about TEL's and other things where not much is known.
 
On this link below, you can see the MLZN in company with the G-6, as mentioned earlier.

http://www.30degreessouth.co.uk/SA-Border-War/firstinlastout.htm
 
That was in the UAE in 91 and led to the UAE orders for the G6 along with Oman. Must have shipped both over and then back to SA. I wonder if the MLZN we saw painted blue actually is driveable?
 
On Page 1 of this thread, Reply 5, I posted that unusual looking 6x6 vehicle, the Mechem Krokodil. In the same post is the tiny picture of the Mechem Gator, which is obviously an 8x8 version of this vehicle.

Does anyone know anything further about the Gator? Where is this vehicle at present? That is the only picture I've seen of it ... does anyone have any others?
 
I only know fragments of that vehicles history but at some point it cam to involve a company called Technical Solutions Group (TSG) who were based in the US and were a subsidiary of Force Protection Inc. There were to build a version of the Gator using US automotive components that was to be called Rhino (this being in 2003, to my knowledge that never happened). The original 6x6 was apparently referred to as Ratel Mk4 and used Ratel components and was built as a technology demonstrator rather than as a production ready vehicle. Supposedly it was fitted with composite steel-ceramic plate armour to defeat EFPs. How the 8x8 came about I do not know, maybe just a logical extension of the 6x6?
 
Thanks for that Sealord.
As said earlier in the thread, I had seen it (Mechem Krokodil 6x6) mentioned that it was designed as some sort of control vehicle, then later, and more plausibly, as a low-height infantry combat vehicle that was air transportable. ( By SAAF C-130 most obviously?)


I also do not know much about that Mechanology Design Bureau Mantis MPWAVS pictured in the same post. So any info anyone has on that 6x6 vehicle would also be most appreciated.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I've come across the "Jounal of Military Ordnance" magazine and in the January 1997 and September 1999 issues are a couple of articles about the DEXSA exhibitions and these discuss and show pictures of various prototype and in-service equipment.
.
 
Old_Rof, that sounds interesting..... any pics or snippets you can share would be most interesting.
 
Note sure if this will work, but some pages from the Jan 1997 issue. Hope they are legible.
 

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Found these pictures sometime ago. I am not so sure the vehicle in the pictures is South African origin.
 

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This is the Spanish Kynos Aljaba assembled in South Africa by SHE as the Cavallo (as seen by its badges) with a mine proof cab. These trucks entered service post Apartheid but were possibly selected before hand, or had some SA hand in their development, judging by their Deutz engines and SA-Spanish co-operation in the late 1970s, 1980s.
 
So on reflection, the real holy grail appears to be the TEL trucks built at Lyttleton for the carriage of the nuclear ballistic missiles? And it seems these vehicles ( Also known as the Beestrok, 7 were built?) were most probably destroyed as part of the dismantelling of South Africa's nuclear weapons programme?

DFS228, I know the book mentioned described the TEL drawingsin it as "generic TEL's", as you mention that they were purposely drawn with incorrect features.

I find it amazing that one can go and inspect a RSA series ballistic missile in it's erector cradle at the SAAF museum, yet no one seems to have pictures in the public domain of the secretive vehicle that carried it.
 
I find it amazing that one can go and inspect a RSA series ballistic missile in it's erector cradle at the SAAF museum, yet no one seems to have pictures in the public domain of the secretive vehicle that carried it.
[/quote]

Thats a very valid observation!Me then thinks,that maybe we should then rather ask as to who would be embarressed if this came to light even today?
 
I’ve been researching the role of West Germany in supporting the RSA in the 70s and 80s and I’ve found a few interesting tidbits. West Germany along with Spain were major under the counter suppliers of the SADF that are less well known than Israeli support.

On trucks – and possibly TELs – the Germans supplied a number of military trucks without cabs with the proviso that the South Africans would fit their own cabs that would be externally dissimilar to the standard German models. These MAN trucks were widely used as recovery vehicles in the SWA Bush War. Possibly they could have been used as TELs which would explain their expungement from the records. Its one thing for West German finger marks to be all over RSA AFV development but to have their trucks rolling around with the ‘Apartheid Bomb’ would be too much.

On AFVs in the mid-late 1970s the SAAC pondered purchasing a number of Leopard 1 tanks. They left it too late and the imposition of compulsory arms sanctions by the UN meant none could be supplied. The SA Anti Aircraft Corps had no such questions and ordered a number of Gepard SPAAG. But due to the delays in decision making by the SAAC the Gepards were apparently being readied for shipment to RSA when sanctions were enacted.

Of course all of the above could just be Oke’s canteen gossip but it smacks of truth. Also, but unrelated to West Germany, the supply of Continental tank engines for the Centurion upgrades was from the USA where they were openly purchased and exported for use on agricultural machinery. Obviously RSA kept it very quiet that they were going into tanks so as to not cut off this sanction busting supply line.

Plus here is a picture of a heavily modified Centurion turret before addition of appliqué armour for creation of an Olifant Mk 1B or Mk 2.
 

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Ok some of this makes sense now as I saw part of a TEL in Louhatla in 1990 as in I saw the front of the cab and a bit of the 8 X 8 chasis (obviously no missile on it) and it was deffinatley a MAN cab with the flat face like the west German Military versions which was in one of the workshops and the tiffys were playing with it.


Abraham, what was the picture in those who had the power that you mentioned previously was of concern?


If i remember correctly in TTHTP it is mentioned that the TEL's were cut up as part of the dismanteling of the program. I too am amazed that there are pics of the actual missiles, A bombs, pelendhaba, etc etc but no trucks?
 
panzerskool said:
Abraham, what was the picture in those who had the power that you mentioned previously was of concern?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what I might have said and haven't read back through the posts to confirm. However I do think I was referring to the cover picture on TTHTP which shows a line drawing for an 8x8 truck with MAN type forward cab with the missile.

panzerskool said:
If i remember correctly in TTHTP it is mentioned that the TEL's were cut up as part of the dismanteling of the program. I too am amazed that there are pics of the actual missiles, A bombs, pelendhaba, etc etc but no trucks?
Click to expand...

I think the key thing here is the truck record was destroyed because an image would have shown where it came from. Missiles, bombs are all pretty indescript being various forms of tubes and were all built in RSA. The truck was probably an import from MAN and the RSA did not want to embarrass their supporters.
 
even now after all these years and a change in government? history is history and fact is fact so there is no way of making the origin of the TEL's disapear and they will come out eventually.


there has to be pictures of the TEL.s even ones with the missiles on them. It was too big a project for it to completley secret.


On the issue of TTHTP , you mentioned something about one of the pictures being very intresting and potentially something that shouldent have been published due to its sensitive nature. Went through the whole book and cant see anything that I fits that catagory. Please tell me the plate no?
 
panzerskool said:
even now after all these years and a change in government? history is history and fact is fact so there is no way of making the origin of the TEL's disapear and they will come out eventually.

there has to be pictures of the TEL.s even ones with the missiles on them. It was too big a project for it to completley secret.
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Yeah but its nuclear weapons. They are kept under wraps a lot more so than conventional weapons. The Israelis have supposedly had TELs with missiles for 40 odd years and no picture has made it into the public domain.

Pictures no doubt exist but they haven’t been released for clearance by the SA Government. Only a handful of pictures in relation to the RSA nuclear program have been released. Since the trucks would indicate outside help (if they are MAN vehicles) then it is even more unlikely they will be released. Too much embarrassment for the ANC government and the Germans.

panzerskool said:
On the issue of TTHTP , you mentioned something about one of the pictures being very intresting and potentially something that shouldent have been published due to its sensitive nature. Went through the whole book and cant see anything that I fits that catagory. Please tell me the plate no?
Click to expand...


I don’t know about that. I went through the thread history and the only thing I said in relation to TTHTP was:

A picture of the TEL is on the cover of "Those Who Had The Power: South Africa: An Unofficial Nuclear Weapons History" by Pierre Lowe Victor. It shows a standard 8x8 heavy truck as TEL.
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In this drawing the truck looks a lot more MAN than Kynos/MLZN.
 
The description of the TEL vehicle as depicted in Those that had the Power is described purposefully as a "generic TEL vehicle".
I think the inference being, as Abraham is suggesting, that the actual South African TEL is not being depicted by the authors on purpose.

I too remember hearing somewhere, as Abraham wrote above, that the Continental diesels as used on SA tanks were not sourced via Israel, as they have configurational or model differences with the types Israel used. (gearbox?)
 

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