South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.

So confirmation that Al-Tariq has been 'intergrated' and in use on US made F-16's.

The part in the article describing the 'intergration' is rather interesting - is this way of doing things going to become more of the norm, and the potential death of very expensive, long and convoluted intergration projects (and working past potential resistance by the aircraft manufacturers, who often don't want rival weapons intergrated on their aircraft)?

Egyptian Air Force F-16s, Mirage 2000s fitted with Al Tariq PGMs​


https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featur...f-16s-mirage-2000s-fitted-with-al-tariq-pgms/
 

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Hi kaiserbill

Apologies for the delay

Just about all I know about Carver I poured into the book. However, there is another book written by an author (locally), which I am trying to locate. If you see my study you will concur. It focuses on SAAF Mirages and also has info about Carver at the end.

Regarding Skua, I have little doubt that the then NP goverment intended to field it as a C/M. Otherwise, why go to all the trouble of building a suitable powerplant (APA-1), integrated flight control and mission computer, NAV system and GPS.

The Iranian Karrar's main difference with Skua is of course in the mounting of the powerplant. It carries a variety of munitions. If the Iranians turn Karrar into a suicide drone, the difference between it and a C/M becomes vague.

Pierre might have more info on Carver, but sadly he appears to have dropped out of this scene all together.

Regards

Thorn
 
Thorn said:
`
kaiserbill said:
Welcome Thorn.
What an interesting turn of events.
I have many, many questions I would love to ask you, as I'm sure many here have.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

I am still getting used to this website and its interface. Apologies if I had inadvertedly not replied to posts addressed to me.

Regards

Thorn
Click to expand...
kaserbill

Could not find the book (sigh), but found the 2 images that I wanted to show you from this book.

Also, found a basketfull of info regarding Carver that I will panelbeat and send to you via this forum.

Regards

Thorn
 
Thanks Thorn.
For those not in the know, Thorns mention of Pierre is referencing his co author on Those Who had The Power.
 
Thorn, there are a few threads listed below for your perusal.
If you want to post any images, or indeed correct any mistakes or misconceptions, or add anything, it would be a wonderful thing.
Your book is mentioned often.

Aerospace:








Land:






Naval:

 
Graciously thank you.

I will peruse the abovememtioned sites (wow..) and respond to the same as per your earliest convenience.

OMGosh kaiserbill, I hope that the last written does not sound overboard. I do however, strangely, admit that I have a preference for the Kings English (?).

Regards

Thorn
 
kaiserbill said:
Thanks Thorn.
For those not in the know, Thorns mention of Pierre is referencing his co author on Those Who had The Power.
Click to expand...
Maybe Thorn can reproduce/retell some of the content here? That book is incredibly difficult to source, and a first edition (allegedly before its content was forcibly further reduced) even rarer.
 
Hi Black Mamba

As far as I know it is off the market.

I do however have a late working draft which I regard as my own personal intellectual property, the finished product at the time not being copyrighted or published yet.

I can send it to you as is. Without compromising your personal information, where can I send it to via Dropbox.

I will trust your discretion in this regard, as well as, your loyalty to this group. ( Gobbledygook - Klingon would possibly be less circumspect ... )


Regards

Thorn
 
Thorn said:
Hi Black Mamba

As far as I know it is off the market.

I do however have a late working draft which I regard as my own personal intellectual property, the finished product at the time not being copyrighted or published yet.

I can send it to you as is. Without compromising your personal information, where can I send it to via Dropbox.

I will trust your discretion in this regard, as well as, your loyalty to this group. ( Gobbledygook - Klingon would possibly be less circumspect ... )


Regards

Thorn
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Hi Thorn,

The late working draft you mention above - is that of the original "Those who had the Power" - or is this of another/different version that you are talking about?
 
Hi Black Mamba

Naturally not of the original, rather a less splitting image thereof, as decorum would dictate.

Regards

Thorn
 
Thorn said:
Hi Black Mamba

As far as I know it is off the market.

I do however have a late working draft which I regard as my own personal intellectual property, the finished product at the time not being copyrighted or published yet.

I can send it to you as is. Without compromising your personal information, where can I send it to via Dropbox.

I will trust your discretion in this regard, as well as, your loyalty to this group. ( Gobbledygook - Klingon would possibly be less circumspect ... )


Regards

Thorn
Click to expand...
Hi Thorn, I sent you a personal message.

Regards
 
Hi Kaiserbill

Got to the first website under Aviation above. I intend to work them through one every day.

As I mentioned to Black Mamba there really are some impressive contributers on the site.

Regards

Thorn
 
Thorn said:
Thorn said:
`
kaiserbill said:
Welcome Thorn.
What an interesting turn of events.
I have many, many questions I would love to ask you, as I'm sure many here have.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

I am still getting used to this website and its interface. Apologies if I had inadvertedly not replied to posts addressed to me.

Regards

Thorn
Click to expand...
kaserbill

Could not find the book (sigh), but found the 2 images that I wanted to show you from this book.

Also, found a basketfull of info regarding Carver that I will panelbeat and send to you via this forum.

Regards

Thorn
Click to expand...
Hi kaiserbill.

Darn, forgot to mention this in my previous. Twose two images as per that other still 'lost' book has already been posted to Secretforums.

Also the knowledge similarly posted here also, exceeds that which I gathered.

BTW. The image of a twin engined Caver which you posted on Jan 26, 2019, with a grey sky as backdrop, really is haunting in its beauty.
 
Thorn said:
Hi Kaiserbill

Got to the first website under Aviation above. I intend to work them through one every day.

As I mentioned to Black Mamba there really are some impressive contributers on the site.

Regards

Thorn
Click to expand...
This is a very high quality forum... by far the best on the web, by a country mile.
 
Looking through Defenceweb's virtual press office for Rheinmetall-Denel Munitions - I found a write up regarding the "Halcon Skyknight" missile, which we know is the Denel Cheetah missile (which is pretty much a further development of the Mongoose-3).

I've posted about this missile a couple of times over the last 4 years within this thread.

Rheinmetall paid for it's final development, however a fair amount of the important components had already been developed and tested before Rheinmetall took an interest in it - although they claim it's a completely different missile in the article, however they then pretty much contradict themselves in the the same article, as per the quoted bit in itallics below. (full article in the link below that).

The seeker developed by Denel is very interesting to me, as it must be one of the smallest and most low cost active radar seekers out in the market. The Denel developed missile itself is also a pretty advanced and highly agile missile (all fins tandom movement and "Piff-Paff" type directional rockets), especially in terms of it's small size..

Rheinmetall previously worked with Denel on the similar Cheetah concept, which was first unveiled at the September 2016 edition of the Africa Aerospace and Defence (AAD) exhibition. Development started in 2014, with static warhead tests in 2017 and two test shots in 2018. In 2019, Rheinmetall said final development would most likely require a launch customer.

The Cheetah was developed in partnership by Rheinmetall Denel Munition (RDM), Denel Dynamics (DD) and Rheinmetall Air Defence and Radar Systems (ADRS). Denel Dynamics was responsible for the missile system including the seeker, guidance system etc. The complete and integrated system was being marketed by Rheinmetall Air Defence. The Cheetah missile was designed to be integrated into Rheinmetall's Oerlikon Skynex, Skyranger, Skyshield or Skyguard gun based air defence systems, but it could theoretically be fitted to other air defence systems.

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/office/rheinmetall/PressRelease.php?StoryID=114400
 

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Graugrun said:
Looking through Defenceweb's virtual press office for Rheinmetall-Denel Munitions - I found a write up regarding the "Halcon Skyknight" missile, which we know is the Denel Cheetah missile (which is pretty much a further development of the Mongoose-3).

I've posted about this missile a couple of times over the last 4 years within this thread.

Rheinmetall paid for it's final development, however a fair amount of the important components had already been developed and tested before Rheinmetall took an interest in it - although they claim it's a completely different missile in the article, however they then pretty much contradict themselves in the the same article, as per the quoted bit in itallics below. (full article in the link below that).

The seeker developed by Denel is very interesting to me, as it must be one of the smallest and most low cost active radar seekers out in the market. The Denel developed missile itself is also a pretty advanced and highly agile missile (all fins tandom movement and "Piff-Paff" type directional rockets), especially in terms of it's small size..

Rheinmetall previously worked with Denel on the similar Cheetah concept, which was first unveiled at the September 2016 edition of the Africa Aerospace and Defence (AAD) exhibition. Development started in 2014, with static warhead tests in 2017 and two test shots in 2018. In 2019, Rheinmetall said final development would most likely require a launch customer.

The Cheetah was developed in partnership by Rheinmetall Denel Munition (RDM), Denel Dynamics (DD) and Rheinmetall Air Defence and Radar Systems (ADRS). Denel Dynamics was responsible for the missile system including the seeker, guidance system etc. The complete and integrated system was being marketed by Rheinmetall Air Defence. The Cheetah missile was designed to be integrated into Rheinmetall's Oerlikon Skynex, Skyranger, Skyshield or Skyguard gun based air defence systems, but it could theoretically be fitted to other air defence systems.

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/office/rheinmetall/PressRelease.php?StoryID=114400
Click to expand...
Thank you

Very informative post/

Regards

Thorn
 
Kentron SAHV-3
Does anyone have more information on the Kentron SAHV-3 which was tested on the cactus, for example, technical data or brochures, books discussing the development & testing of the missile, and what kind of tracking the missile used? Any official sources will greatly be appreciated. 135235246_3453680891421419_1114106074477159326_n.jpg
 
There was a question regrading the SAHV-3 earlier. A relative of mine was one of the senior design guys on that. Apparently there was a competition between two groups, one led by a German engineer from a well known German Defence Company and one that he was one of the lead engineers on. His group won. He said the SAHV-3 used an external design somewhat similar to the British Rapier missile but heavily adapted. The interior was quite different and much more effective than the Rapier. He left the project before the production examples were publicized but he had some fascinating details on this and several other missile systems he worked on. He also said they dismantled several soviet missiles to see their guidance systems and how they might be adapted. He gave an hilarious story about how they used a SAM-7 Strela infrared guidance package to lock on to people who were smoking cigarettes. He said the Soviet equipment was simple and durable, but with a relatively high incidence of duds.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
It's a US BGM-34A from 1983. No idea what its doing in South Africa.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1983.html

83-0514 - 83-0568 Ryan BQM-34A Firebee
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Hi Overscan,
I spent some time reading through this thread, and it's very interesting and informative :)

I heard a very different story about how the Firebee ended up in South Africa, but I am not sure if this is fact. Apparently it's a US Navy Firebee that was launched outside South African waters towards SA undetected. Upon it's return, it didn't make it out of SA waters and the recovery chute deployed. An SA Navy vessel (don't know which one) spotted the drone dangling from it's parachute and rushed to investigate. The US Navy rushed to try retrieve the drone from SA waters before it can be discovered, only to find the SA Navy retrieving it from the ocean. Unable to retrieve their drone without having to explain what the hell they were doing there in the first place, they sailed away and nothing was said about it as if it never happened.
Fact or fiction, don't know, but I really enjoyed listening to the man telling me the story.

Cheers.
 
Griffin7028 said:
Kentron SAHV-3
Does anyone have more information on the Kentron SAHV-3 which was tested on the cactus, for example, technical data or brochures, books discussing the development & testing of the missile, and what kind of tracking the missile used? Any official sources will greatly be appreciated.View attachment 667384
Click to expand...
This became the basis for the Denel-Kentron
Griffin7028 said:
Kentron SAHV-3
Does anyone have more information on the Kentron SAHV-3 which was tested on the cactus, for example, technical data or brochures, books discussing the development & testing of the missile, and what kind of tracking the missile used? Any official sources will greatly be appreciated.View attachment 667384
Click to expand...
 
Some nice pics I found a couple of months back on FB - of the Raptor 1 on the centerline of one of our Mirage F-1AZ's. The control and comms pod is under the starboard wing and an EW pod 'supplied' to us (on the quiet) by the U.K. is mounted under the port wing. There were some questions if we only integrated it onto our Buccaneers for launching/delivery - this confirms that the F-1AZ could deliver it too (remember that it was originaly designed to deliver tactical Nuclear warheads, one of the reasons pics like this are so hard to find).
 

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Graugrun said:
Some nice pics I found a couple of months back on FB - of the Raptor 1 on the centerline of one of our Mirage F-1AZ's. The control and comms pod is under the starboard wing and an EW pod 'supplied' to us (on the quiet) by the U.K. is mounted under the post wing. There were some questions if we only integrated it onto our Buccaneers for launching/delivery - this confirms that the F-1AZ could deliver it too (remember that it was originaly designed to deliver tactical Nuclear warheads, one of the reasons pics like this are so hard to find).
Click to expand...
Further to this point - the F1AZ wasn't only able to carry the H2, the AZ pilot could steer it too! The cockpit pics below show the controls for it in the AZ cockpit. Clumsy affair and probably not a good idea for a lone pilot to guide the bomb to a target while flying in highly contested airspace but it could certainly be done.
 

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Does anyone happen to have dimensions for the naval Umkhonto launcher sitting around somewhere? I'm trying to create one in 3D for a ship project but i only have photos to go on and I'm not *that* good at interpreting those. The dimensions of the canisters are known (650 mm diameter, which is *huge* but I can see it given some of the photos), but I can't figure out the spacing...

Any info here would be appreciated.
 
Winchester said:
Does anyone happen to have dimensions for the naval Umkhonto launcher sitting around somewhere? I'm trying to create one in 3D for a ship project but i only have photos to go on and I'm not *that* good at interpreting those. The dimensions of the canisters are known (650 mm diameter, which is *huge* but I can see it given some of the photos), but I can't figure out the spacing...

Any info here would be appreciated.
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Winchester - I used to have something that covered that in detail, sadly I don't think that I have it anymore - I will take a search for you, it might take a week or two though..
 
Graugrun said:
The control and comms pod is under the starboard wing and an EW pod 'supplied' to us (on the quiet) by the U.K. is mounted under the post wing.
Click to expand...
Any idea which pod it was?
 
Graugrun said:
It may not have made sense to a NATO country to develop - but then we were not a NATO country and we were certainly not fighting the type of war, or under the battle conditions they would have expected to.
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You make a point that resonates with me Graugrun .
I think there's no doubting between clever and intense marketing and the support offered to corporations by their governments, so many state-of-the-art weapons systems/platforms designed for fighting European-type wars have become prolific, since dare I say the Reagan era. Many of these state-of-the-art weapons systems/platforms aren't just well beyond the needs and requirement of most small/medium nations/militaries, but more times than not way too expensive for them to purchase, let alone become proficient in their employment.
But then again, many of these small/medium nations are undoubtedly often wooed and mesmerised like kids in a toyshop when the coordinated efforts of salesmen/politicians come knocking and bearing gifts.....
Good on South Africa for it's resourcefulness.

Regards
Pioneer
 
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Thanks for your input Pioneer - true what you say, also we did not have the fantastic budgets that most of the first world countries did, so we just had to make it work on a shoestring one...

Back to missiles... A Janes (JDW) article that I got off of the net some time back (the copy quality is therefore not so great), giving a clear indication that R-Darter was to be dropped (A South African-Israeli development), and the indication of a new totally South African development of a BVRAAM that would become 'Marlin'.
 

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The article gives some of the product's background and history - the Indians want the LR (Long Range) 120km version, with the extended wing kit - I would not be surprised at all if they have also signed for one of the mini gas turbines to give them far more reach.. Still it must be a very lucrative and prestiges contract for them (Edge/Denel).

India opts for Al Tariq​


https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/india-opts-for-al-tariq/
 

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