South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.

[kaa]

Hi Black Mamba

As far as I know it is off the market.

I do however have a late working draft which I regard as my own personal intellectual property, the finished product at the time not being copyrighted or published yet.

I can send it to you as is. Without compromising your personal information, where can I send it to via Dropbox.

I will trust your discretion in this regard, as well as, your loyalty to this group. ( Gobbledygook - Klingon would possibly be less circumspect ... )


Regards

Thorn

Hello Thorn,

I came across this thread recently and (quite fortunately) came across your post.

In my aims at knowing more about the program I decided to look for more books on the matter, especially Those who had the power which is now impossible to find...

I was wondering if it would not be an issue for you to send me the draft you have? Of course, it will not be shared and will be for my eyes only. I would greatly appreciate this.

Thank you,

Best,

 

[Thorn]

Hello Thorn,

I came across this thread recently and (quite fortunately) came across your post.

In my aims at knowing more about the program I decided to look for more books on the matter, especially Those who had the power which is now impossible to find...

I was wondering if it would not be an issue for you to send me the draft you have? Of course, it will not be shared and will be for my eyes only. I would greatly appreciate this.

Thank you,

Best,

Hi Kaa.

Fortunately I still have a copy of that draft somewhere.

See also my mail to Black Mamba above.

Can you get me your E-mail address via conversations...

Kind regards

Thorn

 

[kqcke for you]

Any News in the Turbojet/Fan development?

 

[Graugrun]

Any News in the Turbojet/Fan development?

Hi kqcke - I started a different thread on SA propulsion development: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/south-african-indigenous-propulsion-projects.39110/

 

[kqcke for you]

Thanks i didn't see it

 

[TsrJoe]

Flight International, 3 September 1977

 

[Graugrun]

Edge, Baykar integrating guided bombs with Bayraktar TB2 UAV (South African Impi range of missiles)​

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...tegrating-guided-bombs-with-bayraktar-tb2-uav

See post # 220.

 

[Graugrun]

EDGE Entity AL TARIQ Completes Initial Integration of AL TARIQ PGMs (Denel Dynamics) onto HAL Tejas Light Combat Aircraft​

https://www.defensehere.com/en/edge...riq-pgms-onto-hal-tejas-light-combat-aircraft

 

[Graugrun]

Delivery of first operational A-Darters scheduled for December​

(we can only hope, it's pretty much due for a midlife upgrade already..)​

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/sa-def...operational-a-darters-scheduled-for-december/

 

[rocketZA]

Weird side question: Where does the name "Denel"come from? Is it an acronym or something?

 

[NMaude]

Weird side question: Where does the name "Denel"come from? Is it an acronym or something?

I don't know, maybe it's an Afrikaans word?

 

[TomS]

I don't know, maybe it's an Afrikaans word?

The Denel website says it stands for Detonics, Numerous, Electronics. No, I don't know what that means either.

Detonics is a pretty obscure word for the physics of explosions, and Electronics is self-explanatory, but Numerous makes no sense at all.

 

[timmymagic]

Not a happy time for Denel...

Massive personnel losses at Denel - defenceWeb

In the five-year period from the 2019/20 to 2023/24 financial terms, State-owned defence and technology conglomerate Denel saw staff numbers drop by just on 60% from 3 968 to 1 655. The nearly four thousand people employed at Denel and its various business divisions and associated companies in...

www.defenceweb.co.za

 

[timmymagic]

Not a happy time for Denel...

Massive personnel losses at Denel - defenceWeb

In the five-year period from the 2019/20 to 2023/24 financial terms, State-owned defence and technology conglomerate Denel saw staff numbers drop by just on 60% from 3 968 to 1 655. The nearly four thousand people employed at Denel and its various business divisions and associated companies in...

www.defenceweb.co.za

Just to add...I suspect the best and brightest are the ones that have either retired or, more likely, headed for pastures new in the UAE so its probably even worse than the figures already suggest.

If you're talented, experienced or young why would you stay? It's only going to get worse...

 

[Graugrun]

Inside EDGE – Al Tariq modular precision-guided munitions in continuous evolution​

​

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/al-tariq-modular-precision-guided-munitions-in-continuous-evolution​

 

[Graugrun]

Skynight ground-to-air missile

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/edge-a-view-from-the-top

Another key programme is the Skynight ground-to-air missile, designed to be part of a hybrid low-tier air defence system that also includes 35 mm guns, with among other a C-UAS capability. “The rules of the game have changed, and although guns and fire control system are very reliable, there is the need for a missile, and we will bring the missile element,” Hamad Al Marar said. Originally the missile was developed by Denel Dynamics in South Africa, and was known as Cheetah, but then the programme had some issues, and EDGE decided to take it further, the cooperation on the overall Skynight system being now only with Rheinmetall. And more specifically its entities in Switzerland and Italy, no more ties existing with South Africa.


Designed for becoming the longer-range element of the Skynight, the missile can however be easily integrated in other VSHORAD systems. The CEO explains that while retaining an active radar seeker, HALCON offloaded all what was possible from the missile to the ground control system, the latter doing all the tracking and guidance until the very last phase of the attack, where the missile seeker takes over. According to Hamad Al Marar the Skynight missile used a radar-on-a-chip solution, which is produced in a foundry, EDGE currently outsourcing this production. The Skynight missile maximum range is declared at 10 km, guns having a range of 4 km. A 20-feet containerised missile launcher unit capable to host 60 missiles, with a five missiles per second rate of fire, is being developed.

 

[Graugrun]

integrating various South African designed weapons onto the US MQ-9B Drone

As seen in the opening of this article, EDGE aims at increasing its export share, the United States being obviously a huge opportunity, for example in the small arms field. “We are not mature enough to handle the US market,” Hamad Al Marar stated that, however, he also underlined that the very lucrative small arms market is of great interest and EDGE will develop and form alliances to penetrate that market. In fact, the US market is already consuming 30 to 40% of small arms ammunition produced by the Group.

“I was actually even thinking beyond small arms and to other clusters, especially missiles and weapons,” the CEO said. The UAE buy of 18 MQ-9B SkyGuardians is still pending; approved by the US Department of State in 2020, it was frozen by the Biden administration one year later. EDGE filed an agreement with General Atomics Aeronautic Systems Inc. (GA-ASI) to integrate its Desert Sting guided glide weapons, Thunder precision guided munitions (PGM), and Al Tariq long range systems, on the MQ-9B. Although this is aimed at the UAE contract, it should well be an entry point as it adds flexibility to GA-ASI export proposals. It is to note that the EDGE integration, when implemented, will be the first of non-NATO weapons on that UAS. The deal was unveiled at the Dubai Air Show in November 2023; “To me this announcement was by itself a success, and it opens up users everywhere in the world. Of course, we will always be subjected to America regulations, but that’s not an issue,” the CEO added, underlining that EDGE guided weapons are already being integrated on UAE Air Force Mirage 2000s.

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/edge-a-view-from-the-top

 

[Graugrun]

South African PGM developments with the EDGE Group

One of the most productive partnerships has been that with South Africa’s Denel Dynamics. Chambers said that the rise of precision-guided munitions (PGM) has changed the landscape of modern warfare. Established in 2012, AL TARIQ is the first UAE-based precision-guided munitions manufacturer.

AL TARIQ, is now part of the missiles and weapons cluster within the EDGE Group, and manufactures munitions that deliver fire-and-forget accuracy with high success rates and minimal collateral damage in the battle space. It designs, develops, manufactures and integrates air-to-surface missiles. Its technology partner and shareholder, Denel Dynamics, is South Africa’s largest government-owned defence manufacturer, specialising in tactical missiles, precision-guided weapons, unmanned aerial vehicle systems and space solutions. The partnership with Denel Dynamics has helped increase production capacity over a short span of time. EDGE’s prime focus has been on enhancing its production expertise and ensuring continual innovation while also working on production process improvements and establishing engineering functions to offer world-class products.

General Atomics Aeronautical Systems is another company partnered with EDGE, to integrate EDGE’s smart weapons onto its MQ-9B SkyGuardian UAV that the UAE plans to acquire. This collaboration marks the first time UAE-made smart weapons will be integrated onto a US unmanned platform.

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/edge-expands-its-portfolio

The two Desert Stings in the centre of the photo are 100% South African developed - and there is a very high chance that it's the same for the two 'stealth type' mini PGMS on either side of them. Anyone able to confirm such?

 

[timmymagic]

The CEO explains that while retaining an active radar seeker, HALCON offloaded all what was possible from the missile to the ground control system, the latter doing all the tracking and guidance until the very last phase of the attack, where the missile seeker takes over.

He's decribing what all active radar missiles do there....but is there more to it?

 

[Mech]

He's decribing what all active radar missiles do there....but is there more to it?

The revolutionary part is the small size of the active radar seeker. Basically something in the class of a stinger with a radar. Don't think its ever been done before.

 

[TomS]

The revolutionary part is the small size of the active radar seeker. Basically something in the class of a stinger with a radar. Don't think its ever been done before.

Lockheed's Miniature Hit-to-Kill had an active radar version in a missile weighing about 5 pounds.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/miniature-hit-to-kill-interceptor.22716/

 

[TinWing]

The revolutionary part is the small size of the active radar seeker. Basically something in the class of a stinger with a radar. Don't think its ever been done before.

Skyknight has a diameter of 115mm, so it isn’t all that revolutionary. Even the Russians are promoting a 100mm active seeker - not sure what the application for that is, yet.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Merlin had an active seeker that fitted within a diameter of 81mm, and that was in the 1980s.

 

[Graugrun]

I believe that the real advantage to the Cheetah/Skyknight is not just that it's a small missile for being all of active radar guided, having Piff-Paff thrust vectoring and rear nozzle thrust vector control, all in that small package (total weight is 35 kg), but that it's also very cheap - the Rheinmetall and Denel Dynamics sales team on the stand at AAD told me that it's far cheaper to fire off 3 x Cheetah (Skyknight) missiles at a target, then it is to a fire 3 x burst of AHEAD rounds at the same target!

 

[Graugrun]

I didn't notice this missile on the Milkor-380 UAV, even though I took photos (of the other side) - I was a little more interested in the new Argus-15 Optronic sight on it - More on that comming in the respective thread.

For now, heres the DefenceWeb's daily show report article on this potentialy new missile.

 

[rocketZA]

A-Darter practice missiles to be delivered this month​

"The much-delayed delivery of Denel’s fifth-generation Denel V3E Agile-Darter (A-Darter) short-range air-to-air missile (SRAAM) to the South African Air Force (SAAF) will begin in October with training missiles, while operational A-Darters are expected in March or April of next year."

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/aerosp...practice-missiles-to-be-delivered-this-month/

 

[Graugrun]

MARLIN BVRAAM brochure (updated)

Most interesting is the last line at the bottom of the first page - That the missile has succesfully intercepted a tartget during a guided flight test. So development is pretty advanced at this stage... (although the below image shows as just black - it is there, please just click on it).

 

[Thorn]

MARLIN BVRM brochure (updated)

Most interesting is the last line at the bottom of the first page - That the missile has succesfully intercepted a tartget during a guided flight test. So development is pretty advanced at this stage... (although the below image shows as just black - it is there, please just click on it).

Nice.

Graugrun do you have any indication of when this live test was carried out (MM/YY)

Thanks

Thorn

 

[Graugrun]

Nice.

Graugrun do you have any indication of when this live test was carried out (MM/YY)

Thanks

Thorn

Hi Thorn - Unfortunately not, it's from the Denel Brochure that I got at AAD 2024.

 

[Thorn]

Hi Thorn - Unfortunately not, it's from the Denel Brochure that I got at AAD 2024.

Thank you.

Thorn

 

[Graugrun]

Interesting story on the Ingwe and it's missile system being successfully tested out in the Middle East - circa 2012/3

 

[tyrin]

Been hearing news that A-Darter will become a trinational program with UAE involved as well but unsure if 100%

Brazilian reporters heard talks about it being discussed in the UAE in September between Akaer and EDGE

Apparently Akaer owns the datapacks for the Brazilian version of the seeker iirc because they acquired Opto Electronica

Akaer also might fuse with Avibras which would give them the IP for the motor

 

[tyrin]

Of course i wouldnt come without a source

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J-EC_rgJGU&ab_channel=BASEMILITARVIDEOMAGAZINE


auto translate from 1:51:30 and you'll see him discuss the topic

 

[Graugrun]

Been hearing news that A-Darter will become a trinational program with UAE involved as well but unsure if 100%

Brazilian reporters heard talks about it being discussed in the UAE in September between Akaer and EDGE

Apparently Akaer owns the datapacks for the Brazilian version of the seeker iirc because they acquired Opto Electronica

Akaer also might fuse with Avibras which would give them the IP for the seeker

That's a very interesting twist - A lot of the South African engineers who worked on the A-Darter are now employed by the EDGE group and others in the UAE. They would have a very good understanding of A-Darter, and more importantly, be able to work on upgrading/updating it. It's been delayed so long that it already due a mid-life update.

All the A-Darter project needed to finish off was some decent financial investment - and it would have long gone been in use today.

The UAE has some deep pockets..!

Thanks for the 'rumour' info - it would be nice if it was true..

 

[tyrin]

That's a very interesting twist - A lot of the South African engineers who worked on the A-Darter are now employed by the EDGE group and others in the UAE. They would have a very good understanding of A-Darter, and more importantly, be able to work on upgrading/updating it. It's been delayed so long that it already due a mid-life update.

All the A-Darter project needed to finish off was some decent financial investment - and it would have long gone been in use today.

The UAE has some deep pockets..!

Thanks for the 'rumour' info - it would be nice if it was true..

Forgot to mention, if it goes through there would also be a chance of it being an air defense system in different versions not unlike the IRIS-T

Only problem is, Germans cant produce enough to deliver on time because of Ukraine and the UAE has better financing ability though its banks.

 

[kqcke for you]

Forgot to mention, if it goes through there would also be a chance of it being an air defense system in different versions not unlike the IRIS-T

Only problem is, Germans cant produce enough to deliver on time because of Ukraine and the UAE has better financing ability though its banks.

View attachment 745499

More like they more or less just finnished development at the time ukraine war started with then only 1 customer. Can't produce 1000s of missiles out of nothing but there pushing for increased production which should get to (i think) ~400 a year

 

[tyrin]

More like they more or less just finnished development at the time ukraine war started with then only 1 customer. Can't produce 1000s of missiles out of nothing but there pushing for increased production which should get to (i think) ~400 a year

That’s still not enough production with the amount of Shaheds that Russia is launching reaching over 1000 per month.


This month Shahed launches are over 1500

If they keep up that pace it will reach 18000~ drones next year

 

[kqcke for you]

That’s still not enough production with the amount of Shaheds that Russia is launching reaching over 1000 per month.


This month Shahed launches are over 1500

If they keep up that pace it will reach 18000~ drones next year

Sure but is there any missile production which can follow the mass of drones which just are simpler and cheaper? No Not even sidewinder or AMRAAM.

Edit: Sidewinder is supposed to achieve 2500 in fy25 so nobody is even close. Good thing that we got SPAAGs to match thoses numbers ^^

 

[tyrin]

Sure but is there any missile production which can follow the mass of drones which just are simpler and cheaper? No Not even sidewinder or AMRAAM.

Edit: Sidewinder is supposed to achieve 2500 in fy25 so nobody is even close. Good thing that we got SPAAGs to match thoses numbers ^^

imo solutions like the Cheetah/Skyknight are the best solution. See @Graugrun post above about cost.

Keep up with the cost, probably not but with enough production you could get the missile down to a good price.

 

[gral_rj]

Akaer also might fuse with Avibras which would give them the IP for the motor

Isn't that one of the Brazilian government's plans to save Avibras?