South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

With all these wonderful pics being posted by Graugrun, I wonder...
Is there a definitive spec sheet of the RSA-3 missile, regarding size and more importantly, performance?
Does the one on display in the museum have any data specs on display?
The only figures I have seen come from the site below, which I am not sure of the accuracy of.

RSA-3

RSA-3

www.astronautix.com

They also have some details on the RSA-4 ICBM.

 

[Graugrun]

With all these wonderful pics being posted by Graugrun, I wonder...
Is there a definitive spec sheet of the RSA-3 missile, regarding size and more importantly, performance?
Does the one on display in the museum have any data specs on display?
The only figures I have seen come from the site below, which I am not sure of the accuracy of.

RSA-3

RSA-3

www.astronautix.com

They also have some details on the RSA-4 ICBM.

I have some more detail, however I would suspect that the site you listed is properly pretty accurate. I'll get onto RSA-4 and RSA-5 later, in the meantime here are some 'pics' of RSA-3 on it's TEL - I have it on good authority that it's a very (but not quite 100%) accurate depiction of the TEL vehicle.

 

[kaiserbill]

My copy of the book is in storage, but I seem to remember the description in "Those who had the Power" being that the TEL vehicle drawing above was "generic" but a close representation.

What that means is difficult to decipher.
The author was obviously deliberately covering himself. And he had to do that throughout the book.
For example, his drawings of the larger, 2nd Carver NGFA had all the basics correct, so he had obviously seen the twin engined model long before it was made public.
This is reasonable, considering he had been in the industry, on an inner level, through those interesting times.

I know the book had to be written with a lot of "conjecture" and "not really conjecture" but this was a function of him being made (forced) to revise it more than once to get it published. Otherwise it would never have been allowed to see the light of day.

It's a really fascinating book.
Much of what he wrote in a "conjectural" way has turned out to be very factual indeed. I'm talking about certain vehicles and some things about the Carver for example. So clearly he knows precisely what he was writing about.

From that book, it seems to me that the deterrent was to be RSA-3 based on mobile platforms, with larger (RSA-4/5) ICBMs silo based, with the ability to deliver payloads to both Washington and Moscow. (!)
The reasoning being that everyone quietly understands the capability to deliver, and the threat.
Certainly, the scope was a lot more ambitious than what was officially airily, casually declared, and rapidly buried by the political leaders. And then never mentioned by them again!

 

[Graugrun]

Moving to the other end of the spectrum, I've finally found some more detailed and accurate/correct info on the missile I featured first in my post #202 - it turns out to be something other then a UAV launched weapon, it's a little more interesting then that actually, FSIM (Fire Support for Infantry Missile) is touted as a RPG-7 and FT-5 replacement smart, loitering weapon - the below slide is from a Denel presentation of a few years ago.

 

[tyrin]

@Graugrun
According to this South African defense anaylst Skyknight is not a direct copy of Cheetah.

That claim supports my theory that Incomar is being contracted to do the work for Halcon but they are former employees with firsthand knoweldge of the Cheetah missile program. LinkedIn can give you a lot of information.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1364219649886478339

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

 

[tyrin]

Unfortunately Denel Dyanmics is completely dead with an almost 0% chance of being resuscitated.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1393508619363172353

View: https://twitter.com/darren_olivier/status/1393508619363172353

 

[Graugrun]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

Thanks for your reply

 

[TomS]

Moving to the other end of the spectrum, I've finally found some more detailed and accurate/correct info on the missile I featured first in my post #202 - it turns out to be something other then a UAV launched weapon, it's a little more interesting then that actually, FSIM (Fire Support for Infantry Missile) is touted as a RPG-7 and FT-5 replacement smart, loitering weapon - the below slide is from a Denel presentation of a few years ago.

A little more on this.

Denel Dynamics shows off FSIM - defenceWeb

State arsenal subsidiary Denel Dynamics this week show-cased its concept Fire Support for Infantry Missile (FSIM) at the Armour Symposium 201 in Pretoria. The missile, shown in mock up, was described as a “new low-cost weapon for the infantry, air assault, parachute and Special Forces units...

www.defenceweb.co.za

The small weapon will have a mass lighter than 4kg including a 1kg warhead consistent of a 100mm shaped charge with anti-personnel fragmentation effective to a 5m radius.

The weapon would have an average airspeed of 100m/s, a minimum range of 20m and a maximum of 10 000m. Loiter time would be up to 10 minutes. Guidance in the direct mode is to be as follows:

– 20-30m: Unguided “fire and forget” (F&F), snatch and shoot
– 20-100m: Rate aided [sic] F&F (Predator)
– 20-500m: Lock-on before launch (LOBL) with TV/imaging infrared (IIR) F&F

 

[tyrin]

Apparently some South African engineers from Denel, and other companies moved to the UAE to a company named Halcon. I have checked Linkedins and it is staggering how many engineers are from South Africa.

It is unfortunate, but ANC neglected Denel and many weren't receiving salaries. Frankly, I wouldn't have stayed either if I couldn't feed my family.

A select few of their developments shown at IDEX 2021











Turbojets Developed by a team led by a former CSIR engineer

 

[RogerTheDodger]

Looks like it's time to shift our gaze from Denel (RIP) to the private sector, companies such as Paramount Group, Milkor, Sandock Austral, etc.

 

[Graugrun]

Thanks for your post Tyrin... Interesting but also very sad to see at the same time... Skynight, the mini missiles atop the DS 25/16/5 GLER rocket series (very interesting concept) and the last pic containing the turbojets are very much South African (Denel Dynamics and CSIR) - I'm not sure of the others, they could also be.... I actually had many discussions with the CSIR engineer who headed the mini turbojet/s project... Very sad to see it now in a foreign country's hands... but at the same time very understandable.. Our current ANC government have treated them (Denel/CSIR engineers and scientists) very, very poorly!

 

[Graugrun]

So this would be one of the Denel Dynamics Medium Range SAM (Umkhonto-ER) concepts with a 3 - 60Km range. They chose rather to go for a dual pulse motor in the end AFAIK, this option allowed for twin boosters (as per my pics in post #184). I would have thought that the boosters had their own rocket motors, however this diagram possibly indicates that they fed into a central 'blow off' rocket motor, that was discarded once the main motor fired? Doesn't seem right - Hopefully someone with far more insight than mine can clarify...

 

[Graugrun]

An interesting slide from Denel, obviously the early days of what would become the Cheetah missile, here referred to as 'LAPS' They give out some hard to find specs in it though and interestingly mention that the system can handle up to 80 missiles in the air at any one time! Next to it is a more contemporary photo of the Cheetah missile

 

[Graugrun]

Mongoose (1 & 3) brochure..

 

[Graugrun]

Adding to Mech's post #214 - here is the Denel slide for the stealth Ingwe (they call it Ingwe III). It has a 1 KM range advantage over the standard Ingwe missile and very interestingly they claim that it has a RCS (Radar Cross Section) of a 12,7mm round! The whole point was to be able to defeat the emergence of various armoured protection systems (APS) that are becoming more and more commonplace, especially on MBT's. Obviously having developed systems like Mongoose 1 and 3, they had a good idea of how to beat such systems.

Basically they knew that if it can't be detected, it won't get acted against by the various APS soft-kill/hard-kill protection options. In another piece I read about this missile, they indicated that it had both a direct as well as top attack abilities - not sure if this means it had two warheads similar to the Swedish BILL-2 or if it was one warhead that swiveled down should a top attack profile be selected prior to (or even after) launch?

Hopefully someone with more insight can fill us in on this rather interesting project, that properly fell victim to massive budget cuts...

 

[Graugrun]

A little more insight in terms of my post #282 above, concerning the MRBM/ICBM TEL - this depicts the actual launch, in which 1. (marked in red) The cabin is lowered a bit beforehand, it has a small set of wheels that it rests on, I think it contributes to further stabilization for the actual launch. 2. the launcher arm lifts the missile into place and then immediately upon launch, drops very rapidly, which creates the counter-acting force on the ring/rim that the missile rests on (3), pushing it up and thereby giving the missile a small physical push/kick-start at the same time that the main rocket motor fires.

 

[Graugrun]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

Alejandrogrossi - I may have found something - this might be the latest iteration of the Raptor III - a still from the UAE's Edgegroup corporate video... The intention was always to have Raptor III micro-jet propelled. Now that (thanks to massive South African CSIR input) they have their ITAR free micro-jet in place (as per the last photo in Tyrin's post # 292 above), they can continue development and production at full speed - well that's my slightly educated guess anyway...

 

[Graugrun]

While I'm not looking to start any political type argument here (although this is a little bit of venting on my part) - I also simply wanted to enlighten those who have asked many questions as to why Denel has recently collapsed, why so many engineers have moved over to the UAE and other places, and carried on with their work there...

Well then it's time to address the elephant in the room.. We have had massive reverse discrimination in South Africa for a long time now, and every year it gets worse (new, more onerous laws get introduced practically every year for the past 27 years). This relates to BEE/BBBEE (Black Economic Empowerment) and AA (Affirmative Action) laws that are taken very, very seriously in South Africa (We are the only country in the world were the dominant majority, who also have complete political control, have over 114 laws to 'protect' themselves against an 8% minority). It's affected my own business (company) so badly and to the point that I am about to emigrate (as I'm one of the lucky ones in South Africa who has dual nationality, and therefore options).

Here is a very typical case in point - Armscor are about to issue 71 tenders and herewith a quote from their upfront brief, with typical wording that has long been standard not only with any government departments, but also with most big and medium sized businesses in South Africa:

"As with all else acquisition-wise at whatever level of government, BBBEE (broad-based black economic empowerment) is paramount. The APP notes “Armscor prefers to do business with bidders at least BBBEE level four compliant and has a vested interest in the advancement of enterprise and supplier development (ESD) beneficiary entities at least 51% black owned by youth, women, military veterans and disabled people”.

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/seventy-one-armscor-tenders-planned-to-april-2022/

There are of course many other reason's for Denel's demise, including rampant corruption, nepotism and incompetence - the above BEE/AA is one of the biggest reasons though, why so many highly skilled engineers have left...

While I do support some degree of BEE/AA in South Africa, the almost fanatical way it gets implemented, is not in the best interests of ALL parties concerned...

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

Alejandrogrossi - I may have found something - this might be the latest iteration of the Raptor III - a still from the UAE's Edgegroup corporate video... The intention was always to have Raptor III micro-jet propelled. Now that (thanks to massive South African CSIR input) they have their ITAR free micro-jet in place (as per the last photo in Tyrin's post # 292 above), they can continue development and production at full speed - well that's my slightly educated guess anyway...

Thanks

 

[Graugrun]

A missile not mentioned yet is the R-Darter BVR missile (Derby to the Israelis).

Jointly developed by South Africa and Israel, my understanding is that the Israelis developed the active radar, the guidance system was jointly done - and then we did the IMU/gyro, laser fuze, warhead and rocket motor (I obviously stand corrected).

Stats from the SA Airforce site (unofficial site):

http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/69/v4-r-darter

Range: >60 km, >37 miles

Length: 3.62 m, 11.88 ft

Diameter: 16 cm, 6.30 ft

Weight: 118 kg, 260 lb

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

Alejandrogrossi - I may have found something - this might be the latest iteration of the Raptor III - a still from the UAE's Edgegroup corporate video... The intention was always to have Raptor III micro-jet propelled. Now that (thanks to massive South African CSIR input) they have their ITAR free micro-jet in place (as per the last photo in Tyrin's post # 292 above), they can continue development and production at full speed - well that's my slightly educated guess anyway...

Gragun
Any name to that stand off missile?

 

[Mech]

While I'm not looking to start any political type argument here (although this is a little bit of venting on my part) - I also simply wanted to enlighten those who have asked many questions as to why Denel has recently collapsed, why so many engineers have moved over to the UAE and other places, and carried on with their work there...

Well then it's time to address the elephant in the room.. We have had massive reverse discrimination in South Africa for a long time now, and every year it gets worse (new, more onerous laws get introduced practically every year for the past 27 years). This relates to BEE/BBBEE (Black Economic Empowerment) and AA (Affirmative Action) laws that are taken very, very seriously in South Africa (We are the only country in the world were the dominant majority, who also have complete political control, have over 114 laws to 'protect' themselves against an 8% minority). It's affected my own business (company) so badly and to the point that I am about to emigrate (as I'm one of the lucky ones in South Africa who has dual nationality, and therefore options).

Here is a very typical case in point - Armscor are about to issue 71 tenders and herewith a quote from their upfront brief, with typical wording that has long been standard not only with any government departments, but also with most big and medium sized businesses in South Africa:

"As with all else acquisition-wise at whatever level of government, BBBEE (broad-based black economic empowerment) is paramount. The APP notes “Armscor prefers to do business with bidders at least BBBEE level four compliant and has a vested interest in the advancement of enterprise and supplier development (ESD) beneficiary entities at least 51% black owned by youth, women, military veterans and disabled people”.

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/seventy-one-armscor-tenders-planned-to-april-2022/

There are of course many other reason's for Denel's demise, including rampant corruption, nepotism and incompetence - the above BEE/AA is one of the biggest reasons though, why so many highly skilled engineers have left...

While I do support some degree of BEE/AA in South Africa, the almost fanatical way it gets implemented, is not in the best interests of ALL parties concerned...

I immigrated to the US 16 years ago from working in engineering in SA. When I got accepted for my last position in SA, I was taken aside by the dept. head and informed privately that I had 0% chance of promotion for the next 15years (at least) regardless of job performance. Great thing to hear on your first day!
The company estimated that's how long it would take to "level out" the affirmative action hires coming out of University. I'd say about 85% of post graduates in that field were white at the time. I run into expats with the same story about 3 times a month.
Last I checked, that company has had about 1/2 of the product line they had on offer and about 2/3 the staff when I was there.

Interestingly, a couple of years ago a friend of mine who used to work in the SA nuclear industry was headhunted to come back and run Koeberg at the time they had all their "issues". He was told that AA and BBBEE would not apply to his department. He's now working at Los Alamos labs.

 

[Mech]

A missile not mentioned yet is the R-Darter BVR missile (Derby to the Israelis).

Jointly developed by South Africa and Israel, my understanding is that the Israelis developed the active radar, the guidance system was jointly done - and then we did the IMU/gyro, laser fuze, warhead and rocket motor (I obviously stand corrected).

Stats from the SA Airforce site (unofficial site):

http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/69/v4-r-darter

Range: >60 km, >37 miles

Length: 3.62 m, 11.88 ft

Diameter: 16 cm, 6.30 ft

Weight: 118 kg, 260 lb

The new gen Derby has been massively improved from the R-Darter. They managed to get a dual-pulse rocket motor in the same body, as the seeker got miniaturized. I think they get about 100km out of it now.
Strange that Denel didn't go down the same development path instead of going for a totally new BVR missile.

 

[tyrin]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

Alejandrogrossi - I may have found something - this might be the latest iteration of the Raptor III - a still from the UAE's Edgegroup corporate video... The intention was always to have Raptor III micro-jet propelled. Now that (thanks to massive South African CSIR input) they have their ITAR free micro-jet in place (as per the last photo in Tyrin's post # 292 above), they can continue development and production at full speed - well that's my slightly educated guess anyway...

It might be something, or just a CG animation that somebody put together but we shall see in the future if it comes up.

 

[tyrin]

@Graugrun
I found an ex-CSIR employee on LinkedIn that works in the UAE currently that worked on 3 different sub-1000 newton while he worked at CSIR.

Not sure if he copied the engines for them or they bought the IP for them from CSIR although the engines that Halcon produces all have different thrust amounts.

 

[Graugrun]

@Graugrun
I found an ex-CSIR employee on LinkedIn that works in the UAE currently that worked on 3 different sub-1000 newton while he worked at CSIR.

Not sure if he copied the engines for them or they bought the IP for them from CSIR although the engines that Halcon produces all have different thrust amounts.

@tyrin - If it's the same person I had been chatting to (at the last 2 AAD shows), he openly stated that it was been requested and paid for by the UAE... (I vaguely hinted at that in my post #208 in reply to Grey Havoc's guess at it being for China..)

 

[Graugrun]

A missile not mentioned yet is the R-Darter BVR missile (Derby to the Israelis).

Jointly developed by South Africa and Israel, my understanding is that the Israelis developed the active radar, the guidance system was jointly done - and then we did the IMU/gyro, laser fuze, warhead and rocket motor (I obviously stand corrected).

Stats from the SA Airforce site (unofficial site):

http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/69/v4-r-darter

Range: >60 km, >37 miles

Length: 3.62 m, 11.88 ft

Diameter: 16 cm, 6.30 ft

Weight: 118 kg, 260 lb

The new gen Derby has been massively improved from the R-Darter. They managed to get a dual-pulse rocket motor in the same body, as the seeker got miniaturized. I think they get about 100km out of it now.
Strange that Denel didn't go down the same development path instead of going for a totally new BVR missile.

@ Mech - My Guess would be that they didn't want any strings of any kind attached, and decided that a fresh clean sheet design would be best. I'm not sure of comparative sizing to R-Darter/Derby and the new Marlin BVRAAM (as I don't have their relevant specs right in front of me), however I think it's safe to say that they simply decided that a new design with different dimensions would also give them enhanced functionality/ability over the older design..

 

[tyrin]

@Graugrun
I found an ex-CSIR employee on LinkedIn that works in the UAE currently that worked on 3 different sub-1000 newton while he worked at CSIR.

Not sure if he copied the engines for them or they bought the IP for them from CSIR although the engines that Halcon produces all have different thrust amounts.

@tyrin - If it's the same person I had been chatting to (at the last 2 AAD shows), he openly stated that it was been requested and paid for by the UAE... (I vaguely hinted at that in my post #208 in reply to Grey Havoc's guess at it being for China..)

I wonder how much ToT they give, CKD assembly or actual production is the question I suppose.

 

[Eternit]

Adding to Mech's post #214 - here is the Denel slide for the stealth Ingwe (they call it Ingwe III). It has a 1 KM range advantage over the standard Ingwe missile and very interestingly they claim that it has a RCS (Radar Cross Section) of a 12,7mm round! The whole point was to be able to defeat the emergence of various armoured protection systems (APS) that are becoming more and more commonplace, especially on MBT's. Obviously having developed systems like Mongoose 1 and 3, they had a good idea of how to beat such systems.

Basically they knew that if it can't be detected, it won't get acted against by the various APS soft-kill/hard-kill protection options. In another piece I read about this missile, they indicated that it had both a direct as well as top attack abilities - not sure if this means it had two warheads similar to the Swedish BILL-2 or if it was one warhead that swiveled down should a top attack profile be selected prior to (or even after) launch?

Hopefully someone with more insight can fill us in on this rather interesting project, that properly fell victim to massive budget cuts...

Can you send links to these articles?

 

[AAMPV]

Can you send links to these articles?

https://armytech.csir.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/gerrit_viljoen-guided_weapons.pdf
https://www.defenceweb.co.za/land/land-land/denel-dynamics-shows-off-fsim/

 

[Graugrun]

A photo I took many years ago at one of the AAD shows (2006), of a model of what would be finally become the Al-Tariq. It was the first open revelation that Denel Kentron/Dynamics was working on an advanced PGM. It naturally differs from the final product in a couple of areas...

 

[tyrin]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

Alejandrogrossi - I may have found something - this might be the latest iteration of the Raptor III - a still from the UAE's Edgegroup corporate video... The intention was always to have Raptor III micro-jet propelled. Now that (thanks to massive South African CSIR input) they have their ITAR free micro-jet in place (as per the last photo in Tyrin's post # 292 above), they can continue development and production at full speed - well that's my slightly educated guess anyway...

Could it be the same missile, I recently found this on a video through a company called Halcon that has many South African employees.

 

[Thorn]

My copy of the book is in storage, but I seem to remember the description in "Those who had the Power" being that the TEL vehicle drawing above was "generic" but a close representation.

What that means is difficult to decipher.
The author was obviously deliberately covering himself. And he had to do that throughout the book.
For example, his drawings of the larger, 2nd Carver NGFA had all the basics correct, so he had obviously seen the twin engined model long before it was made public.
This is reasonable, considering he had been in the industry, on an inner level, through those interesting times.

I know the book had to be written with a lot of "conjecture" and "not really conjecture" but this was a function of him being made (forced) to revise it more than once to get it published. Otherwise it would never have been allowed to see the light of day.

It's a really fascinating book.
Much of what he wrote in a "conjectural" way has turned out to be very factual indeed. I'm talking about certain vehicles and some things about the Carver for example. So clearly he knows precisely what he was writing about.

From that book, it seems to me that the deterrent was to be RSA-3 based on mobile platforms, with larger (RSA-4/5) ICBMs silo based, with the ability to deliver payloads to both Washington and Moscow. (!)
The reasoning being that everyone quietly understands the capability to deliver, and the threat.
Certainly, the scope was a lot more ambitious than what was officially airily, casually declared, and rapidly buried by the political leaders. And then never mentioned by them again!

Hi kaiserbill

The book was written by me with plenty of inside(r) titbits, and of course the truely magnificant drawings, both of the aforewritten from, and by, my co-author.

We had no choice but to write the book in the third person, and be very circumspect, if you followed my drift.

At that time the NP might have been out of office, but definitely not out of power.

It was however, published as written.

While it was being written funny things happend. Being followed, phones naturally tapped, a 'friend' of mine trying to peddle mis-information to me about the missile programme, and of course 3 honeytraps. Some may same 'yeah baby', but believe me all you feel when it actually happens is a sense of dread.

The info on the RSA 4 I got from LLNL, its 'Z division', that helpfully sent me the promo details of it.

Kind regards

Thorn

 

[kaiserbill]

Welcome Thorn.
What an interesting turn of events.
I have many, many questions I would love to ask you, as I'm sure many here have.

 

[Thorn]

Hi kaiserbill

I will of course try to answer any questions as best as I can.

I would only asked that these do not include my sources.

Kind regards

Thorn

 

[kaiserbill]

Just a simple question initially.. as I am most interested in the Carver fighter project.
It has been mentioned that the Skua drone was initially designed as a cruise missile. Is this the case?

 

[Graugrun]

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Graugrun
Ant news about the Raptor III? Or still keep at mock up stage?
Thanks

Hi Alejandrogrossi - I've not heard anything more about it and I don't expect to... It seems that Denel is pretty much dead... Thanks to our illustrious ANC government, Denel and most of our other Parastatals are practically sunk...

Alejandrogrossi - I may have found something - this might be the latest iteration of the Raptor III - a still from the UAE's Edgegroup corporate video... The intention was always to have Raptor III micro-jet propelled. Now that (thanks to massive South African CSIR input) they have their ITAR free micro-jet in place (as per the last photo in Tyrin's post # 292 above), they can continue development and production at full speed - well that's my slightly educated guess anyway...

Could it be the same missile, I recently found this on a video through a company called Halcon that has many South African employees.

View attachment 664885

View attachment 664886

Tyrin - it certainly could be...