Shenyang FC-31 demonstrators / J-35 naval fighter / J-35A land-based version

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

So you're saying the J-11 is a ground-up program? (LMFAO) BTW I believe I specified "developing/producing." Slice it however you want; I'm still not over-concerned about a Chinese quality fighter that uses two RD-33 derivative engines while certainly weighing more than the Mig-29.

I specified designing. J-11 is a cloning exercise with only moderate avionics development, probably not specific to j-11, involved, as is j-15 or whichever is the su-33 clone.


But jf-17 is substantially a ground up design, j-20 likely totally ground up, as is this new j-21/31/whatever. If the rumor of stealth development of su-27 is actually true, then it would likely be much closer to being ground up than the f/a-18e. It would probably end up looking like the T-50. If the rumor of a crank arrow wing derivative of jf-17 is true, then that is also at least en effort comparable to f/a-18e.


The Chinese are making a rd-33 class engine for the jf-17, but I don't know if it is actually a derivative of rd-33. It's also not clear how much expansion potential they built into this engine. They certainly know how to make much larger afterburning turbo fans.


In any case, no g5 fighter, including f22 and f35, matches mig29, or for that matter f-15, in t/w.

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

So you're saying the J-11 is a ground-up program? (LMFAO) BTW I believe I specified "developing/producing." Slice it however you want; I'm still not over-concerned about a Chinese quality fighter that uses two RD-33 derivative engines while certainly weighing more than the Mig-29.

I specified designing. J-11 is a cloning exercise with only moderate avionics development, probably not specific to j-11, involved, as is j-15 or whichever is the su-33 clone.


But jf-17 is substantially a ground up design, j-20 likely totally ground up, as is this new j-21/31/whatever. If the rumor of stealth development of su-27 is actually true, then it would likely be much closer to being ground up than the f/a-18e. It would probably end up looking like the T-50. If the rumor of a crank arrow wing derivative of jf-17 is true, then that is also at least en effort comparable to f/a-18e.


The Chinese are making a rd-33 class engine for the jf-17, but I don't know if it is actually a derivative of rd-33. It's also not clear how much expansion potential they built into this engine. They certainly know how to make much larger afterburning turbo fans.


In any case, no g5 fighter, including f22 and f35, matches mig29, or for that matter f-15, in t/w.

JF-17 engines are imported from Russia... sorry. Like I said, "slice it however you want; I'm still not over-concerned."

BTW, yes, indeed the Mig-29's mighty t/w has given it a magnificent kill ratio in combat. :

 

[hushkit]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

More J-21 analysis here: http://hushkit.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/china-shows-off-new-stealth-fighter/

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/engine-china-stealth-fighter/

Gotta love this article. Yes, China has a lot of problems with engine manufacture quality and is dependent on Mig-29 engines from Russia; but for all its shortcomings, one could never say that the Mig-29 was underpowered (even if the J-31 is probably much heavier). In any case, this David Axe fellow is always good for a chuckle when he tries to write on an aviation matters.

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Incidentally, the exhaust nozzles on the "j-31" seems to be made from slightly curved turkey feather plates, not the same as the straight turkey feathers on the RD-33. But it is very similar to the curved nozzle plates on a half scale model of a "9000 kg class domestic turbo fan" displayed at a trade show a few years back.


The nozzle on the model was vectoring, not by turning the whole nozzle, but by moving the nozzle turkey feathers in such a way as to direct the exhaust off center. If that is indeed the engine on this thing, then j-31 probably has thrust vectoring to some degree.

 

[RSF]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Would that engine at the trade show happen to be this particular unit? It looks roughly the appropriate size for the J-21/31....

http://img4.bbs.szhome.com/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916154822959.JPG

http://img4.bbs.szhome.com/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916154831818.JPG

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Exactly ! That's the long rumoured / reported 9.5 t thrust engine ... but sadly no more info available.

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

As I recall the J-20 debuted with an grossly outsized high-visibility PLAAF star on its tail fins lest anyone forget whose plane that was. This new fighter doesn't seem to show any PLAAF insignia anywhere I can see. I would think this means this J-21/31/F-60 is not an PLAAF endorsed project. This might be more an successor to the JF-17 than an analogue to the F-35.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Perhaps it is an internal project? Rather than a sponsored one

 

[Sea Skimmer]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

That would be an awful expensive internal project. It seems more likely that insignia, if it is indeed lacking, reflects some other fact, such as the aircraft not having been formally handed over the PLAAF yet or even issues with testing different shades of RAM/IR scattering paint. I doubt the US came up with the low visibility markings on its own stealth projects in an afternoon.

 

[Dragon029]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Just a quick cry for guesstimates:

Although it's quite difficult to judge the width / length of the weapons bay, let alone it's depth, what do you guys think a realistic stores limit would be; internal and external?

My own guess; if it's a single long bay along the centreline, perhaps 1/2 the thickness of the fuselage, you might be able to hold 4 or possibly more weapons internally, while externally, there'd likely just be the typical 4 or 6 external hardpoints on the wings and possibly either side of the weapons bay door (although such a hardpoint would likely be quite limited in weapon diameter, stuck between the internal bay, and the landing gears). Perhaps they might try and instead squeeze in a third set of hardpoints on the wings.

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

That would seem to depend on if the intake ducts are straight through, or if it has serpentine shaped duct to shield the fan face. If the ducts are straight through, then there are probably enough space between the ducts to allow a weapon bay potentially be nearly as deep as the fuselage, if they wanted to devote that much space to it instead of avionics or fuel.


But if they gave it s-ducts, as I think they probably would, then I think the bays are probably not very deep, because parts of the ducts would run over the top of the weapon bay.


I wonder if this plane also has side bays like the f-22 or j-20. If it has serpentine ducts, they it ought to have some space outboard of the ducts that can be used as side bays.

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

That would seem to depend on if the intake ducts are straight through, or if it has serpentine shaped duct to shield the fan face. If the ducts are straight through, then there are probably enough space between the ducts to allow a weapon bay potentially be nearly as deep as the fuselage, if they wanted to devote that much space to it instead of avionics or fuel.


But if they gave it s-ducts, as I think they probably would, then I think the bays are probably not very deep, because parts of the ducts would run over the top of the weapon bay.


I wonder if this plane also has side bays like the f-22 or j-20. If it has serpentine ducts, they it ought to have some space outboard of the ducts that can be used as side bays.

Hot off the press: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_09_24_2012_p28-497666.xml

No side bays apparently.

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

The picture in aviation week also strongly suggest serpentine intake ducts. Note the two long shallow bulges over the top of the fuselage behind the intake. Those bulges sprobably accommodates the ducts bowing up and towards the midline on the way to the engine in order to shield fan face.


So a long but shallow weapon bay. This plane is not meant to accommodate big weapons internally.

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

 

[flateric]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

I always guess that guys have much better photos in possession than those that go to the web..

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

I am guessing the guy is a fanboy who makes up whatever is not clear from the photos.

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

I am guessing the guy is a fanboy who makes up whatever is not clear from the photos.

Honestly, the trm Fan Boy is a too harsh term. They are surely Fan Boys but Gao Shan - to admit i don't know him in person - is a legend. He published the first realistic J-10B CG Long before the real One was unveiled and in the end it had so Magny tail several originally thought to be unrealstic.


And Bai Wei was the former editor of the AVIC-owned Aviation magazine Aviation World Monthly ... He studied the Chinese Aviation Industry since years and hads and had Access to archieves, peoples and informations including Secret ones I can only dream to know.


As such I would be carefully to call them only Fan Boys.


Deino

 

[Woody]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

New Chinese fighter

This aircraft appears to be for carrier use, with an arrester hook, twin nose wheels and 2 engines. The engines appear to be without thrust vectoring and there is no evidence of V/STOL or STOVL capability. Unlike the larger J-20 this aircraft has no canards. It also appears to be at a more advanced stage of development than the J-20 if the the flying shots with weapons fit are to be believed.

http://malaysiaflyingherald.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/lightnings-step-brother-shenyang-j-21-revealed/

http://asian-defence-news.blogspot.com.au/

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-new-fighter-aircraft-emerges-in-china-376526/

Cheers, Woody

(Moderators: please merge or remove if this material already exists on secretprojects.co.uk)

 

[Avimimus]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

There is already a thread - and the armed shots are fake.
But thanks for the post anyway!

 

[Woody]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Thanks Avimimus, what's it listed under? I did a search on J-20 and got nothing. Do you recon the entire armed shots are fake?, if so, that's good CGI.

Cheers, Woody

 

[SOC]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Thanks Avimimus, what's it listed under? I did a search on J-20 and got nothing. Do you recon the entire armed shots are fake?, if so, that's good CGI.

Cheers, Woody

All the armed shots are fake. 1) the engine detail is wrong, 2) there has been no flight activity reported yet, and 3) the WVR AAM on the outboard pylons has yet to be seen in the flesh.

 

[flateric]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

they are not 'shots', but Gao Shan and Bai Wei renderings (that was explained at previous page)

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Some suggest a maiden flight tomorrow .... this "shot" is reportedly from today !

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Reportedly high speed taxi tests including an 'aborted' take-off (with only lifting the front wheels) was performed today ... so maidenflight might be quite soon.

But I want images ....

Deino

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 first flight!

Maiden flight !!!!! ;D

 

[flateric]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 first flight!

congratulations to Chinese comrads

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 first flight!

Anyone notice else how closely the radome resembles that of the J-20?

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

No, it appears much smaller. In that the shapes are similar, that's dictated by the fact that it has to fit a front fuselage which have similar stealth shaping.

 

[Evil Flower]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Well it looks real nice for sure. Kind of a mix of F-35 and that YF-22 lookalike PAK-FA concept.

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Some more ....

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

....

 

[JFC Fuller]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Is that J-11B chase plane still in its primer?

 

[piko1]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

gz to China for the reward best Kit-bash 2012 ;D

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Is that J-11B chase plane still in its primer?

Yepp ... taht's actually a J-11BS trainer !

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Yeah, why are they using airframes so fresh off the assembly line as to be untainted as chase planes? Don't they use specially equipped, dedicated chase planes?

Also, why are inside of wheel bays painted red in the first place? It's not a good color for showing up leaks or other problems. Is it there to hide the blood in case of an accident? I realize it is red in the Sukhois and Sukhoi clones made by the same factory.


An observation, the booms on which the horizontal stabilizers are mounted appears to be too close to the exhaust nozzles to accommodate 3D TV. Vectoring those nozzles would scorch off the inside rear edge of the stabilizer.

 

[famvburg]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Maybe they aren't so fresh off the line as they are non-combat aircraft, so why waste the paint?

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Corrosion resistance?

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Tatatata .... the best for today !!!

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Looks awefully a lot like a F-22 from this angle.