Shenyang FC-31 demonstrators / J-35 naval fighter / J-35A land-based version

[thrax]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Wonder if it is competitive or supplementary to the j-20

 

[mithril]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Engines aren't fitted - see the big gap around them. Possibly missing actuators, petals etc.

and yet it looks like a set of nozzles have been fitted. perhaps to show off the fighter to the group looking at it that day.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

bigger?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Via CDF forum - RD-93 on FC-1 / JF-17. Looks quite similar to the engine installation above, which is perhaps just missing the joining ring between bay and engine.


http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=6463.240

 

[datafuser]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

If this one is real indeed and uses two RD93s, then it could be a MiG29-sized fighter?

 

[dark sidius]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Its very beautyful plane, USAF must start launching th 6th gen fighters

 

[flanker]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

The logo looks like an eagle on top of a shield. Is it the manufacturer's logo?

I am sorry, jumped the gun. However, the logo (eagle) is present on the model on first page. I would say it has something to do with its name/nick. JL-9 has an eagle on the nose for example, and is called mountain eagle. If this is navy bird, maybe it is "Sea Eagle"? ;D

And yes, those engines are RD-33/-93/WS-13 without a doubt.

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

No that bird - at least as far as I know - is called "Falcon" !!!!

 

[yasotay]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Its very beautyful plane, USAF must start launching th 6th gen fighters

If nothing else the USAF will already have a very good mapping of the radar signature of the aircraft.

 

[flanker]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

It is "Gyrfalcon" apparently.

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Is that a long, central weapons bay I see partly open along the bottom?

 

[sferrin]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Is that a long, central weapons bay I see partly open along the bottom?

Yep, and take a look at the actuation method. The guys responsible for security at LM (and elsewhere) should be doing time behind bars for their ineptitude. These days security in US defense makes the Keystone Cops look like the Mercury 7 team.

 

[GTX]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Possibility the gap allows for vectoring nozzles ?

 

[flanker]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

As already pointed out, these are RD-33/-93/WS-13 engine nozzle. Neither of those have TVC. Well, Russians do, but they are basically a totally new design, and they are only on MiG-29OVT. This plane doesn't have TVC as of now unless they will stick other engines to it.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Bill Sweetman's new insights on the plane:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A95449fed-12dd-49d2-8479-a6e20a1cb3e5

 

[Sundog]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Aaaawe, cute. Finally got the plane that he wanted. He should learn Chinese and write for their magazines.

His analysis is spot on.

 

[Foxglove]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Well, I think it's safe to say we have a new 5th gen plane, no PS BS. Congratulations, Deino. Anyone tinkle a glass of champagne?
BTW, has anyone noticed that Huitong's site has been blocked? Some Chinese characters appear in a white screen, anyone care to translate?

 

[Triton]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

From Bill Sweetman:

And if you wonder about the detail similarities of the shape to the F-22 and F-35, remember this quote from 2010:

In the past year (2009) alone, Lockheed Martin found “six to eight companies” among its subcontractors “had been totally compromised – emails, their networks, everything” according to Lockheed Martin chief information security officer Anne Mullins.

Source:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A95449fed-12dd-49d2-8479-a6e20a1cb3e5

Did Chinese espionage result in the Shenyang J-21/J-31?

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Thanks but this time it wasn't me who "unveiled" that thing (I was in France over the weekend to admit with the family !) ... but regarding Huitong's site it's offline since some tome but he has a blog-version here:

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.de/p/whats-new.html

Deino

 

[sferrin]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Aaaawe, cute. Finally got the plane that he wanted. He should learn Chinese and write for their magazines.

His analysis is spot on.

It's hardly a surprise that if you don't need to meet the requirements you can come up with a different design. :

 

[siegecrossbow]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Interesting how we don't have updates from Huitong yet. Haven't seen him on CJDBY either.

 

[TAKHISS]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Gyrfalcon CGI

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Hmm, bay design doesn't really match what I'm seeing in the photos.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Aaaawe, cute. Finally got the plane that he wanted. He should learn Chinese and write for their magazines.

His analysis is spot on.

How does one prove that?

 

[UpForce]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

As to Bill Sweetman, each writer brings her/his own notions to the table. Though my concerns about and hopes for the F-35 project might be different to his or I could frame them in my own way at least (... and there's much I'm just unable to have at least a half-way informed opinion about so I'll just have to let those things slide), I still listen him out. There's a lot of doctrinaire, polarizing stuff emerging here around him: When it's to do with the emergence of the J-31 I worry such squabbling might belie a degree of inability to deal with the larger (or main) issue. Surely it's too soon by far to have a very clear idea about the significance of the J-31 (prototype 001). Nonetheless this isn't by any means totally unexpected either. I perceive a degree of nostalgia for a type of US hegemony that in certain senses never was: Past successes were by no means guaranteed, future ones cannot be outright planned or assumed as such.

Right now it seems China (as in the most comprehensive sense of the word) gets quite a lot of bang and especially diversity out of its aerospace yuàn. It's somewhat a ghost air force though, with their stealth projects really being "just" in their "YF-22/X-35" phases and the roles for the multitude of recent and new 4th/5th "gen" fighter types unclear. Predictably and understandably there have been comparisons drawn between US and Chinese designs, but this shouldn't keep us from noticing what is different and perhaps unique about the J-31 (and for that matter the J-20 as well) - I'm very interested in any technological observations along these lines. China has multiple challenges to contend with. The broadest of strokes outline (... and please do disagree with/amend this with an eye on clarifying the matter and adding depth to it): Maintaining growth and securing (Worldwide) resources for that growth ... in the (military) aerospace realm India and Russia project a partly technologically interdependent force (PAK-FA, albeit it's a far cry from a truly meaningful strategic alliance) and the US of course openly states a Pacific-centric approach for the future involving F-22s and F-35s (with the Korean/Indonesian KFX and Japan's ATD-X tying more or less loosely into the same framework). Given that (thankfully) no-one has much of anything to gain from large-scale, open conflicts one may presume that also the Chinese designs (both in technology, potential numbers and strategy) reflect these realities and also represent some sort of leverage for their aspirations (in addition to being contingencies for more irrational and destructive scenarios).

The J-31 has thus far been (vaguely and preliminarily) described in various fora and first media commentaries as a "nimble looking, comparatively smallish air superiority type fighter" (I'm paraphrasing here). I can hardly disagree, but am interested whether someone could? As to speculating about J-31's roles: 1) Internally (mainland China) it may be about increasing the cost of any aggression towards them (the "worst case scenario") ... 2) Externally either as potential tools in regional disputes (reach?) ... but perhaps more interestingly as an export item. There are a number of countries that either can't afford "western" stealth technology or couldn't acquire it anyway - many valuable resources are to be found in their respective areas and the overlap is interesting. It could spell real trouble in the Persian Gulf/AfPak region (somewhat problematic for the Chinese as I assume it's not in their interest to drive fuel prices up), but there's also a chance that some African and other countries that haven't traditionally been associated with high tech defenses may soon sport very advanced technology - securing their regional interests while also cementing China's increasing Worldwide clout in their own way.

If we're facing a World where stealth technology (among others) is proliferating anyway, the F-35 is quite the behemoth of a project to turn into any kind of a competition for someone prepared to do more, let's say, "creative" trading in a somewhat less discerning way. KFX is potentially one way to hedge a potential Chinese "strategic export gambit" but there isn't much anything else on the horizon at the moment, is there? If marketplace nimbleness is required in a larger strategic sense of securing interests in a more multipolar way, can the US or European companies rise to that challenge on their own?

 

[Deino]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

 

[Sundog]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Aaaawe, cute. Finally got the plane that he wanted. He should learn Chinese and write for their magazines.

His analysis is spot on.

How does one prove that?

By knowing Aeronautical Engineering. It's not something one proves as much as something one understands. Or to put it another way, everything he said was aeronautically true and it's a known fact that it was the STOVL requirement that made the F-35 a single engined aircraft. It's also a well known fact that U.S. Navy prefers twin engined aircraft over single engined aircraft, which is why they went with the YF-17 instead of the YF-16 to make their new fighter from in the 70's.

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Aaaawe, cute. Finally got the plane that he wanted. He should learn Chinese and write for their magazines.

His analysis is spot on.

How does one prove that?

By knowing Aeronautical Engineering. It's not something one proves as much as something one understands. Or to put it another way, everything he said was aeronautically true and it's a known fact that it was the STOVL requirement that made the F-35 a single engined aircraft. It's also a well known fact that U.S. Navy prefers twin engined aircraft over single engined aircraft, which is why they went with the YF-17 instead of the YF-16 to make their new fighter from in the 70's.

But is he an actual engineer? I've heard that he is/isn't; either way, JSF as a single engine platform was rightly the USAF's prerogative as they are the largest customer. So many would'a-could'a-should'as to kick around here; but given the program's capability creep, I'm rather amazed that LM has managed to get this far. I would dearly have wished for 2-3 separate programs, but that would have meant 2-3 different competitions, 2-3 different sets of support infrastructure, and 1-2 more chances of program failure (to say nothing of the increased overall costs). The Chinese have designed an aircraft to meet their own, less-strenuous requirements... not ours. And if imitation is the sincerest for of flattery, then we must be doing something right.

 

[Matej]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

All next posts that will have keywords "Sweetman" and "F-35" will mean one week ban for a poster and delete of post. Without exceptions.

 

[Triton]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Will China produce the Shenyang J-21/J-31, or perhaps even the Chengdu J-20, for export? Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force?

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

By knowing Aeronautical Engineering. It's not something one proves as much as something one understands.

My point is, that there are a lot of unknowns unless he has X-ray vision. So in other words his "estimated guesses" are spot on?

from in the 70's.

Exactly the 1970's. you would almost think engine technology has improved to the point where a single works. Even the US Navy is ok at this point with a single engine, along with many countries that are foregoing their twins in favor of a more modern single engine fighter.

Must be photo shopped.

Apologies, back to the J-21/J-31

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Will China produce the Shenyang J-21/J-31, or perhaps even the Chengdu J-20, for export?

The J-20 is probably China's own special thing (too big and expensive for most likely customers), but one could definitely see the J-31 being the #-##'s (that which shall not be named :) market competitor in due time, especially for those not on great terms with the US.

 

[Triton]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

The two cents of Flight International:

"PICTURES: New fighter aircraft emerges in China"
by: Greg Waldron Singapore

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-new-fighter-aircraft-emerges-in-china-376526/

Images of a new fighter aircraft resembling the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter have appeared on Chinese defence sites.

The images were reportedly taken at the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation airfield and appeared over the weekend of 15-16 September 2012.

A possible designation for the aircraft is J-21. Chinese defence sites, however, variously give the designation as the J-21, J-31 or F-60. In the absence of an official announcement, it is difficult ascertain the new aircraft's official designation.

As with the F-22 and F-35, the J-21 features canted twin tails, a key design feature of low observable aircraft. A single grainy head-on shot shows widely-spaced intakes, similar in appearance to the F-35.

One clear difference from the F-35 is the presence of two engines. Chinese observers speculate that these are Klimov RD-93s, the powerplant used in the Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 fighter.

The aircraft also lacks the thrust-vectoring nozzles found on the F-22. No accommodation appears to exist for short take off vertical landing (STOVL) capability.

Based on the J-21's relative size compared with a truck parked nearby in one of the pictures, the aircraft is considerably smaller than the Chengdu J-20, photos of which emerged in similar fashion in late 2010.

There are two other key differences. The J-20 has large canards, which experts have said are not in keeping with a low observable radar cross section. Instead of canards, the J-21 has a tail plane similar to that of the F-22 and F-35.

Another difference is the presence of a twin nose wheel. Twin nose wheels are common on fighters that operate from aircraft carriers, such as the Dassault Rafale, Sukhoi Su-33 and Lockheed Martin F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet. Nonetheless, twin nose wheels are also found on Chinese types such as the Chengdu J-10, which has no apparent carrier role.

While China has no operational aircraft carriers, it has been conducting sea trials with the Varyag, a former Soviet flat-top.

Based on early images, the J-21 would appear to be a more nimble aircraft than the J-20, suggesting it is optimised for the air superiority mission. Some experts have suggested that the large J-20 is not intended as a fighter, but as a long-range attack aircraft.

The emergence of the pictures coincides with protests in Chinese cities over a territorial dispute with Japan over a group of uninhabited islands in the East China Sea. US defence secretary Leon Panetta will also visit China this week. The first flight of the J-20 took place on 11 January 2011, during a visit to China by Panetta's predecessor, Robert Gates.

 

[Matej]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

...being the #-##'s (that which shall not be named : )...

What about to use a common sense, if you (and others) are able to? There is not any problem with intelligent comparison with F-35, but the problem is to have 20+ posts full of useless trolling about Bill Sweetman's opinion on F-35. That really nobody wants to read. If you disagree with his opinion, just disagree and write some points why. Now finally back to topic which is Shenyang J-21/J-31.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Looks like an (Y)F-22 mated with an F-35. Stealth-requirements may lead to quite similar looking designs, but in this case I find the (exterior) similarities with US 5th generation fighters amazing.
So imho we now have a heavy J-20 striker-interceptor, and a mediumweight J-21/J-31 multirole (possibly carrier-suibable) fighter with what to me looks like an emphasis on A-A performance.

Btw, I hope US Secretaries of Defense won't travel to China too often anymore. Seems they bring out a new stealthbird everytime he/she does.

 

[quellish]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Those are very interesting tails, and a very interesting radome.

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Since the radom is usually unpainted, i think the striking difference in color between the radom and the rest of the plane probably reveal the intended base color of the aircraft in service.


So does anyone have any idea whether the color of the Radom matches typical Chinese Airforce or navy colors?


Btw, one has to be somewhat impressed with the bandwidth of Chinese military aircraft design establishments. They are simultaneously working on similar stages of development on at least 2 G5 fighters, while probably still in the development stage of the Su-33 knockoff, as well as another rumored highly evolved stealthy development of the su-27 family, on top of another rumored highly evolved version of jf-17. Their ability to simultaneously push ahead with multiple large projects would seem to me to almost resemble the superpowers during early cold war, and definitely stronger than any other country has demonstrated in the last 20 years.

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Since the radom is usually unpainted, i think the striking difference in color between the radom and the rest of the plane probably reveal the intended base color of the aircraft in service.


So does anyone have any idea whether the color of the Radom matches typical Chinese Airforce or navy colors?


Btw, one has to be somewhat impressed with the bandwidth of Chinese military aircraft design establishments. They are simultaneously working on similar stages of development on at least 2 G5 fighters, while probably still in the development stage of the Su-33 knockoff, as well as another rumored highly evolved stealthy development of the su-27 family, on top of another rumored highly evolved version of jf-17. Their ability to simultaneously push ahead with multiple large projects would seem to me to almost resemble the superpowers during early cold war, and definitely stronger than any other country has demonstrated in the last 20 years.

Almost as impressive as the US developing/producing four G5 and three G4 fighters at once until recently (one of the G5s has been dropped from production though).

 

[chuck4]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Since the radom is usually unpainted, i think the striking difference in color between the radom and the rest of the plane probably reveal the intended base color of the aircraft in service.


So does anyone have any idea whether the color of the Radom matches typical Chinese Airforce or navy colors?


Btw, one has to be somewhat impressed with the bandwidth of Chinese military aircraft design establishments. They are simultaneously working on similar stages of development on at least 2 G5 fighters, while probably still in the development stage of the Su-33 knockoff, as well as another rumored highly evolved stealthy development of the su-27 family, on top of another rumored highly evolved version of jf-17. Their ability to simultaneously push ahead with multiple large projects would seem to me to almost resemble the superpowers during early cold war, and definitely stronger than any other country has demonstrated in the last 20 years.

Almost as impressive as the US developing/producing four G5 and three G4 fighters at once until recently (one of the G5s has been dropped from production though).

By my count, the most the US managed more or less simultaneously during the last 20 years was 1 ground up g5 development program, and 1 not really ground up g4 development program.

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Re: Shenyang J-21 / J-31 revealed!

Since the radom is usually unpainted, i think the striking difference in color between the radom and the rest of the plane probably reveal the intended base color of the aircraft in service.


So does anyone have any idea whether the color of the Radom matches typical Chinese Airforce or navy colors?


Btw, one has to be somewhat impressed with the bandwidth of Chinese military aircraft design establishments. They are simultaneously working on similar stages of development on at least 2 G5 fighters, while probably still in the development stage of the Su-33 knockoff, as well as another rumored highly evolved stealthy development of the su-27 family, on top of another rumored highly evolved version of jf-17. Their ability to simultaneously push ahead with multiple large projects would seem to me to almost resemble the superpowers during early cold war, and definitely stronger than any other country has demonstrated in the last 20 years.

Almost as impressive as the US developing/producing four G5 and three G4 fighters at once until recently (one of the G5s has been dropped from production though).

By my count, the most the US managed more or less simultaneously during the last 20 years was 1 ground up g5 development program, and 1 not really ground up g4 development program.

So you're saying the J-11 is a ground-up program? (LMFAO) BTW I believe I specified "developing/producing." Slice it however you want; I'm still not over-concerned about a Chinese quality fighter that uses two RD-33 derivative engines while certainly weighing more than the Mig-29.