Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers

stashandr said:
Project 1160 (or an early 1153)
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This is a really interesting model, I think it is an early 1153 and not the 1160. The hull looks identical to the one seen on the published photos of the 1153 model and it has the 20 x Granit with 1 x waist cat + 1 x bow catapult configuration of that design. The island configuration does not match the 1160 one either but it obviously doesn't have the Mars-Passat fixed array radar that is on the published photos of the 1153 model. Also, the model aircraft look to be Mig-23 variants so probably pre-date the decision to pursue the Su-27.

I have always been curious about the claim the 1153 was significantly smaller than the 1160, visually its unconvincing, it looks like the 1153 design deleted one of the bow catapults to allow for 20 cell Granit cells compared to the 8 on the 1160.
 
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Hood said:
Yet another Russian CVN model has been recently unveiled, the Project 11430E Lamantin by the Neveskoye Bureau.
The stats look fairly similar to the Project 2300E from 2015-17, the reason for reviving the 1143 designation sequence is unclear as this owes little to that heritige, though I suppose its a good marketing move.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...rrier_Mock_up_displayed_at_Russian_Naval_Show
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90,000 ton nuclear powered aircraft carrier.
Would not suggest anyone hold their breath for that to become a reality....
 
The 1143 designation is indeed weird! It might be developed from the Kiev class hull and the E would mean for Export, but even Kiev's project number was 1143.1 or 11431:

Project 1143.1 (1970): Kiev class carrier
Project 1143.2 (1972): Modified Kiev class carrier Minsk
Project 1143.3 (1975): Improved Kiev class carrier Novorossiysk
Project 1143.4 (1978): Kiev Mod class carrier Baku
Project 1143.5 (1982): Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier
Project 1143.5M (2015?): Modernized Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier
Project 1143.6 (1985): Modified Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier Varyag
Project 1143.7 (1988): Ulyanovsk class nuclear-powered carrier
 
I've read about a pre-1991 project that reached only a very embryonic stage for a Ulyanovsk-follow on that was to be a 100k ton CVN, finally a real Soviet Nimitz counterpart. Any more information?
 
And don't forget the 1143.8 which seems to have been the modified second Ul'yanovsk class ship. Given the various designs considered for what became Kuznetzov it seems like a chosen design was assigned to a sequential number rather than the number being particularly reflective of the design evolution of the ship.

Attached is supposedly a model of the final Project 11780 design. Apparently, at this point senior navy officers had become concerned that the General Staff were trying to add a ski-jump to the bow so they could call it a carrier and have the amphibious ships constructed at Mikolaiv (the only Soviet yard capable of building them)* instead of the scheduled full-carriers so the twin 130mm main gun and Kinzhal units were moved to the bow to prevent this. Whether thats true or not the effect is a doubling of both the Kashtan and Kinzhal systems.

The design was probably meant to be able to carry two Naval Battalion landing teams (versus one in the Ivan Rogov class), meaning that an 11780 and an Ivan Rogov class would probably be able to lift almost an entire Naval Infantry regiment. Two 11780s certainly should have been able too. Given the largest Soviet naval infantry formations were in the Pacific facing Hokkaido, and that was their longest range amphibious objective, it seems logical to assume that 11780s would have been deployed there.

*One of the curious aspects of the post-war Soviet carrier and large surface warship programmes is their failure to develop infrastructure to build and support them, they never see to have developed a truly modern shipyard to build these vessels and they never built large dry-docks for them either. The sinking of PD50, itself acquired from Sweden in the 1980s, is a byproduct of this and that incident seems to have been a catalyst to finally create a large dry dock at Murmansk.

11780_Final.jpg
 
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Somebody posted an enormous number of photos of Soviet unbuilt ship models here:
https://imgur.com/a/Bqx60

Those of the 1153 are especially interesting as they reveal 8 3S90 launchers and associated illuminators, combined with the 20 Granit launch tubes that must make it the most cruiseresque manifestation of the heavy aircraft carrying cruiser concept.
 
JFC Fuller said:
Somebody posted an enormous number of photos of Soviet unbuilt ship models here:
https://imgur.com/a/Bqx60

Those of the 1153 are especially interesting as they reveal 8 3S90 launchers and associated illuminators, combined with the 20 Granit launch tubes that must make it the most cruiseresque manifestation of the heavy aircraft carrying cruiser concept.
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nice thanks great link i loved it
 
Given the dozens of other fancy aircraft carrier models trotted out over the past 20 years I am not going to hold my breath.
 
Speaking of the Kuznetsov class.

When did we find out they had those Granit missile launchers?

Cause I recentaly got The Hybrid Warship the amalgamation of Big Guns and Aircraft by RD Layman and Stephen McLaughlin.

Written in 91 it has a small section on the Russia cruiser carrier hybrids like the Kuznetsov, the named as Tbilisi in book. It basically says that it does not have those missiles.

Well we know that they do so Im wondering when we found out about those missiles publicly.
 
Hi Firefinder,
The earliest mention that the Kuznetsov is equipped with 12 SS-N-19 that I have found in any of my books, is in The Naval Institute Guide to the Soviet Navy - Fifth Edition by Norman Polmar. It was published in 1991 and also already mentions the at that time new and correct name of the ship as "Admiral Kuznetsov".

Its name was changed on 4th October 1990. So, it looks like the book The Hybrid Warship was already outdated when it was published.
 
Hood said:
A later joint NII-45/ TsKB-17 study was the 1959-60 30 aircraft PBIA (floating dock for fighter aviation) to avoid the term aircraft carrier!
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Regarding the PBIA (h/t Dilandu):
1595083317661-png.637633
 
Yes but they are shown as aircraft types as size equivalents for the carrier.
Originally from here:

MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.) | Статьи

Сборник справочной информации по отечественным системам вооружений выпуска после 1945 г., форум
militaryrussia.ru militaryrussia.ru
(you can change language at top right corner)


Air wing:
TsNII-45 project:
24 fighters, 2 AWACS aircraft, 2 helicopters. The diagram (see above) uses the silhouettes of American aircraft.
 
Stalin's Ocean Going Flet book mentions a large number of Kostromitinova proposals for the Red Navy:
1603894702454.png

The fighters described (for the previosu Project 72 carrier) as Yakovlev Yak-9K, and the bombers as Tupolev PT-M-71 types.
 
The SWATH and trimaran design's are interesting, are there any stats available for them?
 
 
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Tzoli said:
Stalin's Ocean Going Flet book mentions a large number of Kostromitinova proposals for the Red Navy:
View attachment 643091

The fighters described (for the previosu Project 72 carrier) as Yakovlev Yak-9K, and the bombers as Tupolev PT-M-71 types.
Click to expand...
Does anyone have any idea what the Tupolev PT-M-71 was going to look like or it's specs?
 
yak38 said:
Tzoli said:
Stalin's Ocean Going Flet book mentions a large number of Kostromitinova proposals for the Red Navy:
View attachment 643091

The fighters described (for the previosu Project 72 carrier) as Yakovlev Yak-9K, and the bombers as Tupolev PT-M-71 types.
Click to expand...
Does anyone have any idea what the Tupolev PT-M-71 was going to look like or it's specs?
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This is what I've found in the forum:
 
Antonio said:
Phantom and E-1 on deck?
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Yes but they are shown as aircraft types as size equivalents for the carrier.
Tzoli said:
Originally from here:

MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.) | Статьи

Сборник справочной информации по отечественным системам вооружений выпуска после 1945 г., форум
militaryrussia.ru militaryrussia.ru
(you can change language at top right corner)


Air wing:
TsNII-45 project:
24 fighters, 2 AWACS aircraft, 2 helicopters. The diagram (see above) uses the silhouettes of American aircraft.
Click to expand...

Or were they? Just kidding... this is a FICTIONAL image created a number of years ago.
Russia-2.jpg
 
GTX said:
Antonio said:
Phantom and E-1 on deck?
Click to expand...
Yes but they are shown as aircraft types as size equivalents for the carrier.
Tzoli said:
Originally from here:

MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.) | Статьи

Сборник справочной информации по отечественным системам вооружений выпуска после 1945 г., форум
militaryrussia.ru militaryrussia.ru
(you can change language at top right corner)


Air wing:
TsNII-45 project:
24 fighters, 2 AWACS aircraft, 2 helicopters. The diagram (see above) uses the silhouettes of American aircraft.
Click to expand...

Or were they? Just kidding... this is a FICTIONAL image created a number of years ago.
Russia-2.jpg
Click to expand...
Well if you have friends in Iran.....
1604088276238.png
 
Tzoli said:
В книге Сталина «Ocean Going Flet» упоминается большое количество предложений Костромитиновой для Красного флота:
View attachment 643091

Истребители описывались (для предыдущего авианосца проекта 72) как Яковлев Як-9К, а бомбардировщики - как Туполев ПТ-М-71.
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These projects have a slightly different timeline.
The Kostromitinov project is a pure research work that summarizes previous research, information about the Graf Zeppelin aircraft carrier, Allies aircraft carriers, and the pr.71m and pr.71B pre-WWII aircraft carrier projects. This research work was part of a more extensive study led by vice-adm. Goncharov in 1942-44 "Trends of warship development "(part 6 "Aircraft carriers").
Simultaneously with this study and based on its intermediate data in 1943-44, the design of the aircraft carrier pr. 72 is carried out in three versions: "large" I-B, II-B and "small" III-M.
Then in late 1944 - early 1945 works the "sub-commission on advanced aircraft carriers and AA defense ships" by rear-adm. Chernyshev and 19 January 1945, presented a report on two types of required aircraft carriers: fleet carrier of 30,000 tons (based on options pr. 72 in its "larger" variants I-B and II-B) and light carrier of 15,000 tons.
After that, the commission, again under the leadership of vice-adm. Goncharov, worked out in detail the options for aircraft carriers, including new types - escort and heavy aircraft carriers. A total of 33 variants were investigated - 24 "convoy" (escort), 3 light, 4 "squadron" (fleet) and 2 heavy aircraft carriers, and in the final report of March 30, 1945, finally selected two variants of escort aircraft carriers (var. 2 and var. 14), two variants of light aircraft carriers (var. 26 and var. 27), one variant of a fleet aircraft carrier (var. 31) and one variant of a heavy aircraft carrier (var. 33)
 
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Tzoli said:
Yes but they are shown as aircraft types as size equivalents for the carrier.
Originally from here:

MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.) | Статьи

Сборник справочной информации по отечественным системам вооружений выпуска после 1945 г., форум
militaryrussia.ru militaryrussia.ru
(you can change language at top right corner)


Air wing:
TsNII-45 project:
24 fighters, 2 AWACS aircraft, 2 helicopters. The diagram (see above) uses the silhouettes of American aircraft.
Click to expand...
Thank yo, everyone else here, very much for the fascinating information. I had not even heard of most of these designs.

The AEW silhouette appears to be a Hawkeye with the radar dome of a Willie Fudd which is a somewhat interesting combination.
 
These hypotetical hybrid designs were presented in the Time Life Magazine in December 17 1945. Pages 91 to 94 under the title 'The Russian Navy is Reborn'.
The bigger one had 120000 tons, eight 18in guns and 16 rocket launchers. The smaller one had 6 rocket launchers. No other information was given.

1607046663693.png
The pictures bellow show a little more detail of these designs.

1607046827734.png

1607046871232.png
 
Matsyevich 1910 aircraft carrier, based on "Admiral Lazarev" armour vessel (1872, 3943 ton, 79.9 m long, 10.5 knots with old machines), 25 planes:
avik1-650x293.jpg
Kanokotin 1910-1911 aircraft carrier (based on Matsyevich project), 10 planes ("Blerio"):
avik3-650x299.jpg
Project of I. K. Grigorovich, 1916 - 5000 ton, approved by Nicholas II. Also, Nicholas II suggested increasing to 10-12 000 ton, and built four ships. It was decided to buy ships from the United States to convert them into aircraft carriers. The project "died" after the February revolution.
Also, in 1916-17 projected helicopter carrier.
There was an electric catapult in Matsyevich project, "lenght no more 35 foot (10.7 m), motor no more 20 HP". I do not know about catapults in Grigorovich's project, but it was supposed to use them on new battleships (from the construction of which Nicholas II did not refuse; for the "battleship 1915" in 1915-16, metal procurement began).
Project of rebuilding of "Ismail" battlecruiser to aircraft carrier, 1925:
IMG_20201204_100528.jpg
20-22 000 ton, 27 knots, 8x180 mm guns, 8x102 mm guns, 20x AA guns, 12 torpedo bombers, 12 fighters, 6 reconnaissance planes, 5 spotters, maximum to 50 planes, armour - belt 237 mm (standart) or 76 mm (3"), flyght deck - 51-64 mm (2-2.5").
 
In the planning stages of the postwar fleet many large carrier projects based on Graf Zeppelin were studied. The largest one was "Option 33" with a standard displacement of over 82000 tons and a full load displacement of nearly 90000 ton for a waterline length of 350 meters and a beam of 41 meters. Basically a Soviet equivalent of the nearly contemporary United States albeit apparently with a classic tactical role. Also impressive was the planned powerplant of 380000 hp, nearly one and an half that of CVA-58 project of only slightly smaller displacement, I guess at least 6 propellers were needed.
 

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Some Soviet pre-WWII and WWII carrier projects data.

Prewar projects (1936-1941), wartime projects (1942-44), finally recommended "carriers-1945" and hybrid battle-carriers and cruiser-carriers (1934-39) in comparision of German WWII hybrid projects:
 

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At least one of the launch positions (catapults?) obstructed by the landing area. The island would take a pounding in heavy seas - and the crew members there would need super-sea legs because of the range of motion there, that’s if they weren’t swimming for their lives.
 
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Does it have a catapult? Note sure if those lines are markings or a catapult? Looks more like the usual CTOL with a big blast shield, but weirdly no ski deck if it is CTOL.
Also if they were catapults then I'm assuming EMALS unless they have some steam plant aboard. Can't see much in the way of any uptakes/downtakes for the powerplant (steam or COGOG).
Agreed on the island location, too far forward. Someone has put too much emphasis on the deck park.
I can't help thinking this is more of an artists impression that an actual design.
 
Would a full Diesel power plant applicable for such a carrier?
 

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