Navy AX and A/F-X projects

[TinWing]

I don't understand how Lockheed could be on three of the five AX-A/FX teams. Wouldn't the partners have been concerned that proprietary information would be shared with the other two competing teams that Lockheed was on? Would Lockheed have to operate under Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA) and keep its product teams separate within the company?

I suppose that might be one explanation. Of course, looking at the example of the amalgamated British aircraft industry, various establishments offered competing proposals, simply because the various factories retained separate design staffs from the days when they were independent companies.

 

[F-14D]

I wonder if the Navy found it odd that for their first attempt at building stealth jet, the only 2 companies at the time with any experience and knowledge in building stealth jets were running away. Wouldn't you hesitate for a moment if things like that happen?

Lockheed didn't want to play because they could see the program would fall on its face, the way it was set up. . Almost certainly the makeup of the two teams that eventually participated was dictated by DoD. It would have been more logical for Northrop to team with MDD, as they had repeatedly done in the past. Northrop didn't run away because of the requirements or even the stupid contract. They and Grumman walked away because they had enough experience to see what was happening, and they had no desire to get involved with something where they'd probably lose money. With ATA, the only thing worse than losing the contract would be winning it.

 

[F-14D]

I don't understand how Lockheed could be on three of the five AX-A/FX teams. Wouldn't the partners have been concerned that proprietary information would be shared with the other two competing teams that Lockheed was on? Would Lockheed have to operate under Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA) and keep its product teams separate within the company?

I suppose that might be one explanation. Of course, looking at the example of the amalgamated British aircraft industry, various establishments offered competing proposals, simply because the various factories retained separate design staffs from the days when they were independent companies.

What would happen is that those who worked on one team would be "walled off" from talking shop with other members of the company working on another bid, even if they were in the same building For example, the MDD people working With Northrop on the ATF couldn't work with the MDD people working Against Northrop on ATA.

 

[Stargazer]

I wonder if the Navy found it odd that for their first attempt at building stealth jet, the only 2 companies at the time with any experience and knowledge in building stealth jets were running away. Wouldn't you hesitate for a moment if things like that happen?

You BET I would !!!

 

[F-14D]

I wonder if the Navy found it odd that for their first attempt at building stealth jet, the only 2 companies at the time with any experience and knowledge in building stealth jets were running away. Wouldn't you hesitate for a moment if things like that happen?

You BET I would !!!

Clearly you don't work near Washington DC. Otherwise you would understand the philosophy, "Everything we do is correct. If you think what we just did was wrong, clearly you are mistaken. It was simply correct to a lesser degree than what we are doing now".

Or, as a Wise Person once put it, "In Washington, it is much more important not to be wrong than it is to be right".

Stepping back would have meant a loss of face. It might also have meant consulting with users in the Fleet (unwashed plebeians, don't you know), who had very little say on the final requirements for ATA. AX-A/FX, on the other hand did utilize a lot of Fleet input, but you know how that ended up.

 

[donnage99]

This could be the new design from Lockheed/Boeing/Grumman that the article was referring to. Though, most likely, it's in the same catergory with the Lockheed/Boeing/GD f-22 derivative. They were, presumably, testing out 2 tails and 4 tails configurations for the same design.

EDIT: never mind, the Lockheed/Boeing/GD has already been revealed. This is not it. Though I do want to point out something that makes it look like they could attach and detach the horizontal tails from the model.

 

[SDN]

Out of curiousity, do you guys think the AF/X would have been more manueverable than the Tomcat? I'm guessing with internal stores, since there is less drag, the plane might have been able to go faster than the F-14B/D. Also, have there been any drawings released, or models, showing how the weapons would be internally stored? Was there provision for a gun?

I'm guessing the AF/X would have been a decent A-6 and F-14 replacement, not as potent as a fighter as the NATF, but also better than the Super Bug. Also, if it did go into production, would it have been call F/A-22? Until reading this thread, I had no idea it was even classified with the "22" designation number.

 

[F-14D]

Out of curiousity, do you guys think the AF/X would have been more manueverable than the Tomcat? I'm guessing with internal stores, since there is less drag, the plane might have been able to go faster than the F-14B/D. Also, have there been any drawings released, or models, showing how the weapons would be internally stored? Was there provision for a gun?

I'm guessing the AF/X would have been a decent A-6 and F-14 replacement, not as potent as a fighter as the NATF, but also better than the Super Bug. Also, if it did go into production, would it have been call F/A-22? Until reading this thread, I had no idea it was even classified with the "22" designation number.

A/FX was designed to be a strike aircraft with good stealth, but not the extreme stealth of the A-12, which was actually more than needed. Its strike role was to be similar to that of the F-35 but more capable. In other words, the first strikes would be stealthy, but then larger loads would b carried via external stores. For it, fighter capability was secondary, mainly to be able to fight off defenders, or for missions to "sweep" airspace, rather than get into roundy-roundy dogfights. Maneuverability beyond that of the Tomcat was probably not something for which the Navy would have been willing to pay extra. It was expected that what would become AIM-152 would be the primary air-to-air weapon, backed up by what would become AIM-9X using helmet sights for closer-in combat. It would not be as good a fighter as NATF but a better striker, just as NATF was optimized to be a better striker than ATF.

I'm sure someone will correct me, but I believe that some of the A/FX proposals did not even have afterburning engines, illustrating where the priorities were. Almost certainly it would not have been designated F/A-22 (a nomenclature the AF used for a while in a PR ploy that backfired). It would have been too different.

 

[Triton]

Almost certainly it would not have been designated F/A-22 (a nomenclature the AF used for a while in a PR ploy that backfired). It would have been too different.

What would be your guess of the nomenclature? Do you believe that it would have lost its fighter designation? Perhaps designated A-13 or A-14? Would the 13 be dropped for superstitious reasons?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

What would be your guess of the nomenclature? Do you believe that it would have lost its fighter designation? Perhaps designated A-13 or A-14? Would the 13 be dropped for superstitious reasons?

F/A-24 seems the obvious choice. The Navy went from F-17 to F-18/A-18 (later F/A-18) for much less change between the Nortrop Cobra and the McAir Hornet than from the F-22 to A/FX.

 

[Triton]

F/A-24 seems the obvious choice. The Navy went from F-17 to F-18/A-18 (later F/A-18) for much less change between the Nortrop Cobra and the McAir Hornet than from the F-22 to A/FX.

True, F/A-24, or FA-24, does seem like a sensible and obvious choice. Unfortunately, the Department of Defense has not been consistently following the rules it established for the Tri-Service aircraft designation system in 1962 and so there is an element of uncertainty when we have exceptions. I was curious if F-14D was aware of any internal or external politics that would have influenced the decision of the designation chosen for the aircraft if it had been built.

 

[F-14D]

One reason against the F/A-22 designation would be that that would most appropriately be assigned to a derivative of the F-22. Maybe the Lockheed NATF might have been assigned that, or it might be considered too different to share the -22 number. Certainly the AX wouldn't have such a designation. This would be especially true if the a/c built was not one that had its genesis in the F-22 design. AX would have had an A- designation.

A/FX might have been slightly different. Normal designation is that the letter closest to the "-" indicates the aircraft's design mission. When modified so that a different mission becomes significant, a letter is added to the left, such as "RF" or "KA". The Hornet invented the"F/A" designation, never used before, because it was claimed that it would be "equally" good at" two primary missions. So, depending how they wanted to sell it, A/FX could have been "FA" or "F/A". The number would have been interesting. Normally, one would think it would be "-24". However, there was apparently a classified program that produced a "YF-24" (of which I know nothing about). This would put the designators in a dilemma, if said aircraft had been produced early enough to get the designation before A/FX. Do you use the -24, and cause some confusion with a classified aircraft? Of course, that happened with the A-12 designation and the system survived. Or do you go on to -25, which might bring on unwanted curiosity wondering what happened to the -24?

One way out of that would to go to attack numbers and call it an "FA-13", because its primary role was strike and fighter was secondary.

 

[Sundog]

One way out of that would to go to attack numbers and call it an "FA-13", because its primary role was strike and fighter was secondary.

Of course, they probably would have skipped 13 for obvious reasons, in which case it would have been the F/A-14, which would have been interesting. Or they could have gone the F-20 route and maybe just jumped to F/A-30 and claimed the contractor wanted to move into the new designation, 3n instead of 2n, due to to how much more advanced it was when compared to current generation aircraft, thereby avoiding the YF-24 conundrum. Or, since it predated the JSF, they may have decided to call the demonstrator/prototype the X-32, therefore making the production version the F/A-32. They can always find a way to justify any change in their designation system.

 

[F-14D]

One way out of that would to go to attack numbers and call it an "FA-13", because its primary role was strike and fighter was secondary.

Of course, they probably would have skipped 13 for obvious reasons, in which case it would have been the F/A-14, which would have been interesting. Or they could have gone the F-20 route and maybe just jumped to F/A-30 and claimed the contractor wanted to move into the new designation, 3n instead of 2n, due to to how much more advanced it was when compared to current generation aircraft, thereby avoiding the YF-24 conundrum. Or, since it predated the JSF, they may have decided to call the demonstrator/prototype the X-32, therefore making the production version the F/A-32. They can always find a way to justify any change in their designation system.

You're right, they probably would have skipped A-13 since they skipped -13 for Fighters, Cargo, V/STOL/ Drone (Q), etc. (although interestingly there was an X-13). I can't see them jumping to -30; F-19 was skipped for marketing reasons. Northrop asked for F-20 for two reasons. One, as you said, to show the first of a 'new generation'. The second was to differentiate it form the various Soviet fighters on the export market, all of which had odd numbers. Neither would apply in this case.

Whether it would have been F/A or FA is hard to tell. Expanding on what I wrote before, originally there was to have been an F-18 and an A-18 as separate, differently equipped aircraft. The two were combined into one which was called the F/A-18, to show it was "equally good" (I'm resisting the temptation to make a comment) in both roles. Since the A/FX didn't come from two separate aircraft, it could reasonably be designated "FA", indicated a strike aircraft with secondary fighter capability, which would put it in the attack numbers. Or they could go "F/A", which would probably put in in the fighter series. Or simply "A". Or they could have drawn something out of a hat, the way it seems the US names warships nowadays...

 

[Sundog]

I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.

 

[Triton]

Almost certainly it would not have been designated F/A-22 (a nomenclature the AF used for a while in a PR ploy that backfired). It would have been too different.

I know that some authors were calling the US Navy aircraft derived from the F-22A the "Sea Raptor." I have not read any articles to suggest that the project was known as the Sea Raptor at Boeing or Lockheed Martin. Though it would have been interesting if the aircraft had been designated FA-22N.

 

[donnage99]

I think it's important to note that it's essentially a new aircraft based on the f-22, and not a derivative of the f-22. So most likely no -22 designation

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I know that some authors were calling the US Navy aircraft derived from the F-22A the "Sea Raptor." I have not read any articles to suggest that the project was known as the Sea Raptor at Boeing or Lockheed Martin. Though it would have been interesting if the aircraft had been designated FA-22N.

Any use of the name "Sea Raptor" would be pure fiction. A/FX - the last gasp of a navalised ATF - was cancelled in late 1993 and the F-22 did not recieve the name "Raptor" until April 1997.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

At this point I am thinking it would make sense for the attack and fighter designation series to be merged. So for example a future fighter or attack aircraft would get the "24" designation regardless of if it is the F-24, F/A-24, or A-24.

Presuming the "24" designation was not used for some classified project.

 

[SDN]

Out of curiousity, do you guys think the AF/X would have been more manueverable than the Tomcat? I'm guessing with internal stores, since there is less drag, the plane might have been able to go faster than the F-14B/D. Also, have there been any drawings released, or models, showing how the weapons would be internally stored? Was there provision for a gun?

I'm guessing the AF/X would have been a decent A-6 and F-14 replacement, not as potent as a fighter as the NATF, but also better than the Super Bug. Also, if it did go into production, would it have been call F/A-22? Until reading this thread, I had no idea it was even classified with the "22" designation number.

A/FX was designed to be a strike aircraft with good stealth, but not the extreme stealth of the A-12, which was actually more than needed. Its strike role was to be similar to that of the F-35 but more capable. In other words, the first strikes would be stealthy, but then larger loads would b carried via external stores. For it, fighter capability was secondary, mainly to be able to fight off defenders, or for missions to "sweep" airspace, rather than get into roundy-roundy dogfights. Maneuverability beyond that of the Tomcat was probably not something for which the Navy would have been willing to pay extra. It was expected that what would become AIM-152 would be the primary air-to-air weapon, backed up by what would become AIM-9X using helmet sights for closer-in combat. It would not be as good a fighter as NATF but a better striker, just as NATF was optimized to be a better striker than ATF.

I'm sure someone will correct me, but I believe that some of the A/FX proposals did not even have afterburning engines, illustrating where the priorities were. Almost certainly it would not have been designated F/A-22 (a nomenclature the AF used for a while in a PR ploy that backfired). It would have been too different.

Interesting. Do you know if external stores would have been carried with swiveling pylons on the wings, or like the F-14, with pylons and mounting points on the body of the fighter? I've never seen what the proposed internal bay structures for the A/F-X proposals looked like, nor lists showing how much it was slated to carry internally and externally. I imagine pylons on the wings would definitely bring it's loadout close to, or exceeding that of the A-6.

Though it would not be as potent as a fighter as the NATF, do you think it would be more capable than the F-14 close-in(aside from using HMS+AIM-9X)? I ask this because the long range capability was accounted for(AIM-152). Could the area between the wings on the A/F-X give the same benefit that the lifting body did on the Tomcat? Or does that only apply to aircraft with wide areas between engine nacelles, like the F-14 & MIG-29?

I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.

Yeah the F-18 and A-18 were marketed as 2 separate aircraft. IIRC, Mcdonnell had ads and artwork showing the Hornet in "A" "F" configurations, trying to show it as an all-in-1 aircraft.

 

[F-14D]

I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.

The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.

 

[Gridlock]

Presuming the "24" designation was not used for some classified project.

"was"?

 

[F-14D]

Presuming the "24" designation was not used for some classified project.

"was"?

Whatever the YF-24 was, it was a plane of some years ago; doubtful if it could have been kept secret if entered large scale production, especially today and especially in the US.

 

[SDN]

I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.

The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.

Reminds me of how the Super Bug is referred to at times as jack of all trades, master of none, especially since it was the replacement(albeit not ideal) for the A-6 and F-14.

I think if the A/F-X entered service, it would have had an "F/A" designation in the USN, and "F" designation in the USAF. Since the Hornet was multi-role, it had an F/A designation, and I think the USAF would just use the "F" just to make it easier. Hell they did that with the F-117 and the Strike Eagle still bears the fighter designation even though it's primarily used for attack. Do you guys think the A/F-X would have been a good Strike Eagle replacement? Being that the design was proposed in the 90's with assumed entry into service close to the Super Hornet, and being that it was aimed at also replacing the F-111, I figure it would have replaced the Strike Eagle too. I'm guessing low level flight at high speed would be less turbulent than the Strike Eagle too.

Has anyone drawn up an A/F-X in F-111 SEA camo?

 

[F-14D]

I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.

The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.

Reminds me of how the Super Bug is referred to at times as jack of all trades, master of none, especially since it was the replacement(albeit not ideal) for the A-6 and F-14.

I think if the A/F-X entered service, it would have had an "F/A" designation in the USN, and "F" designation in the USAF. Since the Hornet was multi-role, it had an F/A designation, and I think the USAF would just use the "F" just to make it easier. Hell they did that with the F-117 and the Strike Eagle still bears the fighter designation even though it's primarily used for attack. Do you guys think the A/F-X would have been a good Strike Eagle replacement? Being that the design was proposed in the 90's with assumed entry into service close to the Super Hornet, and being that it was aimed at also replacing the F-111, I figure it would have replaced the Strike Eagle too. I'm guessing low level flight at high speed would be less turbulent than the Strike Eagle too.

Has anyone drawn up an A/F-X in F-111 SEA camo?

Actually, the Super Bug was originally sold as the "interim" aircraft until the A/FX could arrive. We all know how that worked out.

A/FX would have been much better than Strike Eagle, since this would be its design role. it wouldn't have been as exportable, though. Thing is, we can't be all that sure it would actually made it into USAF service given their aversion to acquiring an aircraft/system they didn't develop themselves. Regarding the obvious exceptions, F-4 was forced on them, A-1 was all there was, A-7 was because there was a war on and they were running out of F-105s. In the latter case they greatly modified and improved the aircraft to the point where the Navy started buying the AF version with minor changes. Even then, after the war they worked hard to phase it out.

My point is, that although A/FX (or even AX) would be the ideal F-111 and then F-15E and F-117 replacement, we can't be sure it would have entered USAF service. For the more cynical of us, they might even try what they did on the ATA (although that wasn't the only reason for its collapse). For details, see James P. Stevenson's superb "The $5 Billion Misunderstanding". It would be harder to do, though, given the plethora of teams involved with A/FX.

 

[SDN]

I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.

The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.

Reminds me of how the Super Bug is referred to at times as jack of all trades, master of none, especially since it was the replacement(albeit not ideal) for the A-6 and F-14.

I think if the A/F-X entered service, it would have had an "F/A" designation in the USN, and "F" designation in the USAF. Since the Hornet was multi-role, it had an F/A designation, and I think the USAF would just use the "F" just to make it easier. Hell they did that with the F-117 and the Strike Eagle still bears the fighter designation even though it's primarily used for attack. Do you guys think the A/F-X would have been a good Strike Eagle replacement? Being that the design was proposed in the 90's with assumed entry into service close to the Super Hornet, and being that it was aimed at also replacing the F-111, I figure it would have replaced the Strike Eagle too. I'm guessing low level flight at high speed would be less turbulent than the Strike Eagle too.

Has anyone drawn up an A/F-X in F-111 SEA camo?

Actually, the Super Bug was originally sold as the "interim" aircraft until the A/FX could arrive. We all know how that worked out.

A/FX would have been much better than Strike Eagle, since this would be its design role. it wouldn't have been as exportable, though. Thing is, we can't be all that sure it would actually made it into USAF service given their aversion to acquiring an aircraft they didn't develop themselves. Regarding the obvious exceptions, F-4 was forced on them, A-1 was all there was, A-7 was because there was a war on and they were running out of F-105s. In the latter case they greatly modified and improved the aircraft to the point where the Navy started buying the AF version with minor changes. Even then, after the war they worked hard to phase it out.

My point is, that although A/FX (or even AX) would be the ideal F-111 and then F-15E and F-117 replacement, we can't be sure it would have entered USAF service. For the more cynical of us, they might even try what they did on the ATA (although that wasn't the only reason for its collapse). For details, see James P. Stevenson's superb "The $5 Billion Misunderstanding". Iw would be harder to do given the plethora of teams involved with A/FX.

Ah I see, and that does make sense. I'll try to find that book. I think that with the Navy and USAF, they'll only use each others planes if there is no other alternative. Like with the Prowler taking on roles that the EF-111 used to fulfill. So Super Bug was the bridge to A/F-X, does that mean that the Super Bug was to be the secondary strike fighter in the fleet, with A/F-X taking over the primary strike fighter role? Or was there another fighter in line(JSF?) meant to replace the Super Bug? What I am trying to figure out, is after the A/F-X came into service, what would the Super Bug be relegated to?

 

[F-14D]

I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.

The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.

Reminds me of how the Super Bug is referred to at times as jack of all trades, master of none, especially since it was the replacement(albeit not ideal) for the A-6 and F-14.

I think if the A/F-X entered service, it would have had an "F/A" designation in the USN, and "F" designation in the USAF. Since the Hornet was multi-role, it had an F/A designation, and I think the USAF would just use the "F" just to make it easier. Hell they did that with the F-117 and the Strike Eagle still bears the fighter designation even though it's primarily used for attack. Do you guys think the A/F-X would have been a good Strike Eagle replacement? Being that the design was proposed in the 90's with assumed entry into service close to the Super Hornet, and being that it was aimed at also replacing the F-111, I figure it would have replaced the Strike Eagle too. I'm guessing low level flight at high speed would be less turbulent than the Strike Eagle too.

Has anyone drawn up an A/F-X in F-111 SEA camo?

Actually, the Super Bug was originally sold as the "interim" aircraft until the A/FX could arrive. We all know how that worked out.

A/FX would have been much better than Strike Eagle, since this would be its design role. it wouldn't have been as exportable, though. Thing is, we can't be all that sure it would actually made it into USAF service given their aversion to acquiring an aircraft they didn't develop themselves. Regarding the obvious exceptions, F-4 was forced on them, A-1 was all there was, A-7 was because there was a war on and they were running out of F-105s. In the latter case they greatly modified and improved the aircraft to the point where the Navy started buying the AF version with minor changes. Even then, after the war they worked hard to phase it out.

My point is, that although A/FX (or even AX) would be the ideal F-111 and then F-15E and F-117 replacement, we can't be sure it would have entered USAF service. For the more cynical of us, they might even try what they did on the ATA (although that wasn't the only reason for its collapse). For details, see James P. Stevenson's superb "The $5 Billion Misunderstanding". Iw would be harder to do given the plethora of teams involved with A/FX.

Ah I see, and that does make sense. I'll try to find that book. I think that with the Navy and USAF, they'll only use each others planes if there is no other alternative. Like with the Prowler taking on roles that the EF-111 used to fulfill. So Super Bug was the bridge to A/F-X, does that mean that the Super Bug was to be the secondary strike fighter in the fleet, with A/F-X taking over the primary strike fighter role? Or was there another fighter in line(JSF?) meant to replace the Super Bug? What I am trying to figure out, is after the A/F-X came into service, what would the Super Bug be relegated to?

Although both services are somewhat parochial, USN is more open to using something developed elsewhere than is USAF, and generally won't work to sabotage someone else's program, even if they don't want it themselves, just because it intrudes on their "roles and missions". USAF, on the other hand has been notorious for that.

The EA-6 got the EF-111 roles because USAF was no longer interested in paying for the assets necessary for such a role. Yes, the Hornet E/F would become secondary, which was a very expensive way to do things. However, their lobby was stronger, so the interim became the end. There was nothing in line to replace the Super Hornet as the A/FX would have fulfilled all its roles (except maybe tanker) better so there would be no need for a Hornet successor. If A/FX had come to fruition, there would be no need for a Navy JSF, although USAF might stil have partnered with USAF on something for the two of them.

 

[donnage99]

"McAir Vought AXInlet 1993" Does somebody recognize this configuration? B-2 like air intakes on the top and the swept wing.

Look like this:

 

[Triton]

Now that the US Navy has the F-35C and the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and the F/A-18G Prowler, does the US Navy need a successor to the A/FX like the Boeing F/A-XX? Is Northrop Grumman likely to come up with an A/FX successor?

 

[Matej]

The key element here is the UCAS. If the X-47B will be good enough and will enter the serial production, the combination of the second generation, even much stealthified Superhornet, F-35C and A-47 will be good enough at least until the mid century.


Moderators note: please do not use hyperquotes. The quote of just one previous post (if you are not the next one) is just fine.

 

[Dreamfighter]

But if the US Navy doesn't go for the Ultimate Super Hornet (like with that stealthy missile-pod Boeing showed), they might need to replace the Superbug near the end of the 2nd decade.
Keeping the long development-phases in mind, perhaps a real F/A-XX-prototype might show up around 2020... to be production-ready ca. 2030 if all goes well. Of couse with no guarantee of actually going in production, things could get cancelled... :
Also it could be decided that the Navy would have to do with just the F-35 and a X-47 (A-47), once the F/A-18E/F nears retirement...

 

[F-14D]

Now that the US Navy has the F-35C and the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and the F/A-18G Prowler, does the US Navy need a successor to the A/FX like the Boeing F/A-XX? Is Northrop Grumman likely to come up with an A/FX successor?

Neither the F-35C, Super Bug nor Growler deliver what was intended with the A/FX. The Navy still needs something like that, but now that things have gone the way they have, the question is whether they will ever get it. Certainly USAF will be opposed and lobby against it.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Neither the F-35C, Super Bug nor Growler deliver what was intended with the A/FX. The Navy still needs something like that, but now that things have gone the way they have, the question is whether they will ever get it.

Exactly.

Certainly USAF will be opposed and lobby against it.

Unless it would be optimised for A2A, and could also become a replacement for the Raptor. Yeah, I know the USAF doesn't want adopting Navy planes, but perhaps it could be vica versa (like with the F-22 -> NATF). Or USAF could be forced to by budget restraints... All depending on which design / development-efforts would start 1st; a F-22 replacement or a Superbug-one. As Boeing's released pics show, at least they have started thinking about the latter one....

 

[F-14D]

Certainly USAF will be opposed and lobby against it.

Unless it would be optimised for A2A, and could also become a replacement for the Raptor. Yeah, I know the USAF doesn't want adopting Navy planes, but perhaps it could be vica versa (like with the F-22 -> NATF). Or USAF could be forced to by budget restraints... All depending on which design / development-efforts would start 1st; a F-22 replacement or a Superbug-one. As Boeing's released pics show, at least they have started thinking about the latter one....

If it was optimized for A2A, it wouldn't be the A/FX the Navy wanted and needed; that's one of the reasons they pulled out of NATF--too much fighter, not enough strike. Keep in mind that A/FX was only about five years or so behind Raptor, so the technology advance wasn't that much over F-22 level, and wouldn't be leading edge by the time Raptor needed replacement (after all, USAF was getting 700+ of those, remember?). USAF nominally looked at it as an F-111, F-15E & F-117 replacement, but I am cynical that they would have actually bought it, lobbying instead to use the money they would have spent on A/FX to buy more B-2s, or F-22s or even F-16s.

 

[Dreamfighter]

I agree with what you say. But looking to the future, wouldn't the Navy - assuming they have the F-35 strikefighter and an attack A-47 (an evolved X-47 or something, though not sure how long it's legs and how large it's payload would be) - become more interested in A2A again to a certain extent (fleet defense), then it was in the time of A/F-X ? (I'm thinking about what the F-14 was) And - though as meaningless as it might be - the prefix now seems F/A (-XX) again...

 

[SDN]

Neither the F-35C, Super Bug nor Growler deliver what was intended with the A/FX. The Navy still needs something like that, but now that things have gone the way they have, the question is whether they will ever get it. Certainly USAF will be opposed and lobby against it.

Do you think it's possible that the F/A-XX requirements will, over time, turn more into requirements akin to A/F-X? I think so long as the Navy has carriers, they might have a chance at getting their desired A/F-X.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The next fighter for Navy, Air Force and the rest of the US aligned world will probably resemble the ATA more than the A/FX. The driving operational requirements are as much brains (ISR), legs (fuel) and stealth (LO) as possible. Its not so hard to combine all that in a ~70,000 lbs aircraft with ~8 hours of internal fuel as long as it isn’t trans/supersonic. With hypersonic missiles a real possibility from 2020 onwards the need for speed in the aircraft is significantly less. Of course this new fighter will be unmanned but it will carry one or two humans around with it. They can call themselves pilots or aviators if they want but their job will be all about target acquisition and mission control.

 

[F-14D]

I agree with what you say. But looking to the future, wouldn't the Navy - assuming they have the F-35 strikefighter and an attack A-47 (an evolved X-47 or something, though not sure how long it's legs and how large it's payload would be) - become more interested in A2A again to a certain extent (fleet defense), then it was in the time of A/F-X ? (I'm thinking about what the F-14 was) And - though as meaningless as it might be - the prefix now seems F/A (-XX) again...

It's not that the USN ever was not interested in A2A. It's simply that their pressing need was and is strike. So, that was their main design driver. The fact that the plane evolved from AX to A/FX (partly driven by the loss of the F-14) shows they hadn't forgotten fighters. The a/c would have to be able to handle fleet defense as well as self escort and possibly protecting the strike force (A/FXs loaded for A2A protecting other A/FXs carrying more strike related ordnance). They realized they couldn't afford the best fighter around and the best strike, so they went for the latter and required a "good enough" fighter capability. They were counting heavily on AIM-152 which, had the F-14 Quickstrike and A/FX survived, probably would have reached production.

 

[F-14D]

Neither the F-35C, Super Bug nor Growler deliver what was intended with the A/FX. The Navy still needs something like that, but now that things have gone the way they have, the question is whether they will ever get it. Certainly USAF will be opposed and lobby against it.

Do you think it's possible that the F/A-XX requirements will, over time, turn more into requirements akin to A/F-X? I think so long as the Navy has carriers, they might have a chance at getting their desired A/F-X.

Depends on how "roles and missions" shake out with the Air Force, and who's got more pull in the Pentagon.

 

[Triton]

I know that some authors were calling the US Navy aircraft derived from the F-22A the "Sea Raptor." I have not read any articles to suggest that the project was known as the Sea Raptor at Boeing or Lockheed Martin. Though it would have been interesting if the aircraft had been designated FA-22N.

Any use of the name "Sea Raptor" would be pure fiction. A/FX - the last gasp of a navalised ATF - was cancelled in late 1993 and the F-22 did not recieve the name "Raptor" until April 1997.

The F-22 was named Lightning II by Lockheed when Lockheed unveiled the prototype, then briefly SuperStar. The US Air Force rejected these names and called the aircraft Rapier and then changed the name to Raptor when it accepted delivery of the first F-22.

Source:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0221.shtml