elider said:MDD and Vought teamed together in the A/F-X competition as well. I have not seen anything concerning their design. Does anyone have any info on it?
donnage99 said:Because Lockheed was......smart?
flateric said:Key Lockheed smarties principle was to run away from such things as 'fixed price contract' Northrop was as smart in ATA case
Triton said:I don't understand how Lockheed could be on three of the five AX-A/FX teams. Wouldn't the partners have been concerned that proprietary information would be shared with the other two competing teams that Lockheed was on? Would Lockheed have to operate under Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA) and keep its product teams separate within the company?
donnage99 said:I wonder if the Navy found it odd that for their first attempt at building stealth jet, the only 2 companies at the time with any experience and knowledge in building stealth jets were running away. Wouldn't you hesitate for a moment if things like that happen?
TinWing said:Triton said:I don't understand how Lockheed could be on three of the five AX-A/FX teams. Wouldn't the partners have been concerned that proprietary information would be shared with the other two competing teams that Lockheed was on? Would Lockheed have to operate under Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA) and keep its product teams separate within the company?
I suppose that might be one explanation. Of course, looking at the example of the amalgamated British aircraft industry, various establishments offered competing proposals, simply because the various factories retained separate design staffs from the days when they were independent companies.
donnage99 said:I wonder if the Navy found it odd that for their first attempt at building stealth jet, the only 2 companies at the time with any experience and knowledge in building stealth jets were running away. Wouldn't you hesitate for a moment if things like that happen?
Clearly you don't work near Washington DC. Otherwise you would understand the philosophy, "Everything we do is correct. If you think what we just did was wrong, clearly you are mistaken. It was simply correct to a lesser degree than what we are doing now".Stargazer2006 said:donnage99 said:I wonder if the Navy found it odd that for their first attempt at building stealth jet, the only 2 companies at the time with any experience and knowledge in building stealth jets were running away. Wouldn't you hesitate for a moment if things like that happen?
You BET I would !!!
SDN said:Out of curiousity, do you guys think the AF/X would have been more manueverable than the Tomcat? I'm guessing with internal stores, since there is less drag, the plane might have been able to go faster than the F-14B/D. Also, have there been any drawings released, or models, showing how the weapons would be internally stored? Was there provision for a gun?
I'm guessing the AF/X would have been a decent A-6 and F-14 replacement, not as potent as a fighter as the NATF, but also better than the Super Bug. Also, if it did go into production, would it have been call F/A-22? Until reading this thread, I had no idea it was even classified with the "22" designation number.
F-14D said:Almost certainly it would not have been designated F/A-22 (a nomenclature the AF used for a while in a PR ploy that backfired). It would have been too different.
Triton said:What would be your guess of the nomenclature? Do you believe that it would have lost its fighter designation? Perhaps designated A-13 or A-14? Would the 13 be dropped for superstitious reasons?
Abraham Gubler said:F/A-24 seems the obvious choice. The Navy went from F-17 to F-18/A-18 (later F/A-18) for much less change between the Nortrop Cobra and the McAir Hornet than from the F-22 to A/FX.
F-14D said:One way out of that would to go to attack numbers and call it an "FA-13", because its primary role was strike and fighter was secondary.
Sundog said:F-14D said:One way out of that would to go to attack numbers and call it an "FA-13", because its primary role was strike and fighter was secondary.
Of course, they probably would have skipped 13 for obvious reasons, in which case it would have been the F/A-14, which would have been interesting. Or they could have gone the F-20 route and maybe just jumped to F/A-30 and claimed the contractor wanted to move into the new designation, 3n instead of 2n, due to to how much more advanced it was when compared to current generation aircraft, thereby avoiding the YF-24 conundrum. Or, since it predated the JSF, they may have decided to call the demonstrator/prototype the X-32, therefore making the production version the F/A-32. They can always find a way to justify any change in their designation system.
F-14D said:Almost certainly it would not have been designated F/A-22 (a nomenclature the AF used for a while in a PR ploy that backfired). It would have been too different.
Triton said:I know that some authors were calling the US Navy aircraft derived from the F-22A the "Sea Raptor." I have not read any articles to suggest that the project was known as the Sea Raptor at Boeing or Lockheed Martin. Though it would have been interesting if the aircraft had been designated FA-22N.
F-14D said:SDN said:Out of curiousity, do you guys think the AF/X would have been more manueverable than the Tomcat? I'm guessing with internal stores, since there is less drag, the plane might have been able to go faster than the F-14B/D. Also, have there been any drawings released, or models, showing how the weapons would be internally stored? Was there provision for a gun?
I'm guessing the AF/X would have been a decent A-6 and F-14 replacement, not as potent as a fighter as the NATF, but also better than the Super Bug. Also, if it did go into production, would it have been call F/A-22? Until reading this thread, I had no idea it was even classified with the "22" designation number.
A/FX was designed to be a strike aircraft with good stealth, but not the extreme stealth of the A-12, which was actually more than needed. Its strike role was to be similar to that of the F-35 but more capable. In other words, the first strikes would be stealthy, but then larger loads would b carried via external stores. For it, fighter capability was secondary, mainly to be able to fight off defenders, or for missions to "sweep" airspace, rather than get into roundy-roundy dogfights. Maneuverability beyond that of the Tomcat was probably not something for which the Navy would have been willing to pay extra. It was expected that what would become AIM-152 would be the primary air-to-air weapon, backed up by what would become AIM-9X using helmet sights for closer-in combat. It would not be as good a fighter as NATF but a better striker, just as NATF was optimized to be a better striker than ATF.
I'm sure someone will correct me, but I believe that some of the A/FX proposals did not even have afterburning engines, illustrating where the priorities were. Almost certainly it would not have been designated F/A-22 (a nomenclature the AF used for a while in a PR ploy that backfired). It would have been too different.
Sundog said:I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.
Sundog said:I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.
Colonial-Marine said:Presuming the "24" designation was not used for some classified project.
Gridlock said:Colonial-Marine said:Presuming the "24" designation was not used for some classified project.
"was"?
F-14D said:Sundog said:I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.
The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.
SDN said:F-14D said:Sundog said:I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.
The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.
Reminds me of how the Super Bug is referred to at times as jack of all trades, master of none, especially since it was the replacement(albeit not ideal) for the A-6 and F-14.
I think if the A/F-X entered service, it would have had an "F/A" designation in the USN, and "F" designation in the USAF. Since the Hornet was multi-role, it had an F/A designation, and I think the USAF would just use the "F" just to make it easier. Hell they did that with the F-117 and the Strike Eagle still bears the fighter designation even though it's primarily used for attack. Do you guys think the A/F-X would have been a good Strike Eagle replacement? Being that the design was proposed in the 90's with assumed entry into service close to the Super Hornet, and being that it was aimed at also replacing the F-111, I figure it would have replaced the Strike Eagle too. I'm guessing low level flight at high speed would be less turbulent than the Strike Eagle too.
Has anyone drawn up an A/F-X in F-111 SEA camo?
F-14D said:SDN said:F-14D said:Sundog said:I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.
The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.
Reminds me of how the Super Bug is referred to at times as jack of all trades, master of none, especially since it was the replacement(albeit not ideal) for the A-6 and F-14.
I think if the A/F-X entered service, it would have had an "F/A" designation in the USN, and "F" designation in the USAF. Since the Hornet was multi-role, it had an F/A designation, and I think the USAF would just use the "F" just to make it easier. Hell they did that with the F-117 and the Strike Eagle still bears the fighter designation even though it's primarily used for attack. Do you guys think the A/F-X would have been a good Strike Eagle replacement? Being that the design was proposed in the 90's with assumed entry into service close to the Super Hornet, and being that it was aimed at also replacing the F-111, I figure it would have replaced the Strike Eagle too. I'm guessing low level flight at high speed would be less turbulent than the Strike Eagle too.
Has anyone drawn up an A/F-X in F-111 SEA camo?
Actually, the Super Bug was originally sold as the "interim" aircraft until the A/FX could arrive. We all know how that worked out.
A/FX would have been much better than Strike Eagle, since this would be its design role. it wouldn't have been as exportable, though. Thing is, we can't be all that sure it would actually made it into USAF service given their aversion to acquiring an aircraft they didn't develop themselves. Regarding the obvious exceptions, F-4 was forced on them, A-1 was all there was, A-7 was because there was a war on and they were running out of F-105s. In the latter case they greatly modified and improved the aircraft to the point where the Navy started buying the AF version with minor changes. Even then, after the war they worked hard to phase it out.
My point is, that although A/FX (or even AX) would be the ideal F-111 and then F-15E and F-117 replacement, we can't be sure it would have entered USAF service. For the more cynical of us, they might even try what they did on the ATA (although that wasn't the only reason for its collapse). For details, see James P. Stevenson's superb "The $5 Billion Misunderstanding". Iw would be harder to do given the plethora of teams involved with A/FX.
SDN said:F-14D said:SDN said:F-14D said:Sundog said:I hadn't realized they originally intended the F-18 and A-18 as two separate aircraft. I do remember Northrop offering the land based F-18L to no avail. Once again, I know you want to comment on the YA-7F. I mean seriously, we don't need supersonic attack planes. Hell, it isn't like they're able to fly supersonic anyway with a full attack load. BTW, I mean Attack in the classic sense of the word, not the strike role, or in the F-35 limited internal load sense.
The F-18L was separate from the F and A -18s. It had higher performance, but what happened to it was the basis for a number of interesting lawsuits. The original l Naval Air Combat Fighter program envisioned two related but separate aircraft, each optimized for its role (along with the associated crew training). When they were merged it was claimed that advances in electronics permitted one aircraft to perform either role equally well, but actually it was cost. In reality a multi-purpose aircraft will not do as good a job as an aircraft optimized for the role, and the crews won't be as well trained in either.
Reminds me of how the Super Bug is referred to at times as jack of all trades, master of none, especially since it was the replacement(albeit not ideal) for the A-6 and F-14.
I think if the A/F-X entered service, it would have had an "F/A" designation in the USN, and "F" designation in the USAF. Since the Hornet was multi-role, it had an F/A designation, and I think the USAF would just use the "F" just to make it easier. Hell they did that with the F-117 and the Strike Eagle still bears the fighter designation even though it's primarily used for attack. Do you guys think the A/F-X would have been a good Strike Eagle replacement? Being that the design was proposed in the 90's with assumed entry into service close to the Super Hornet, and being that it was aimed at also replacing the F-111, I figure it would have replaced the Strike Eagle too. I'm guessing low level flight at high speed would be less turbulent than the Strike Eagle too.
Has anyone drawn up an A/F-X in F-111 SEA camo?
Actually, the Super Bug was originally sold as the "interim" aircraft until the A/FX could arrive. We all know how that worked out.
A/FX would have been much better than Strike Eagle, since this would be its design role. it wouldn't have been as exportable, though. Thing is, we can't be all that sure it would actually made it into USAF service given their aversion to acquiring an aircraft they didn't develop themselves. Regarding the obvious exceptions, F-4 was forced on them, A-1 was all there was, A-7 was because there was a war on and they were running out of F-105s. In the latter case they greatly modified and improved the aircraft to the point where the Navy started buying the AF version with minor changes. Even then, after the war they worked hard to phase it out.
My point is, that although A/FX (or even AX) would be the ideal F-111 and then F-15E and F-117 replacement, we can't be sure it would have entered USAF service. For the more cynical of us, they might even try what they did on the ATA (although that wasn't the only reason for its collapse). For details, see James P. Stevenson's superb "The $5 Billion Misunderstanding". Iw would be harder to do given the plethora of teams involved with A/FX.
Ah I see, and that does make sense. I'll try to find that book. I think that with the Navy and USAF, they'll only use each others planes if there is no other alternative. Like with the Prowler taking on roles that the EF-111 used to fulfill. So Super Bug was the bridge to A/F-X, does that mean that the Super Bug was to be the secondary strike fighter in the fleet, with A/F-X taking over the primary strike fighter role? Or was there another fighter in line(JSF?) meant to replace the Super Bug? What I am trying to figure out, is after the A/F-X came into service, what would the Super Bug be relegated to?
Look like this:Matej said:"McAir Vought AXInlet 1993" Does somebody recognize this configuration? B-2 like air intakes on the top and the swept wing.