Navy AX and A/F-X projects

[Triton]

Triton, all these images you posted are found in Matej's website, in which he linked to back on page 1:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2150.msg20137.html#msg20137

True, but these images are larger and did not come from Matej's website. It is not my intention to waste bandwidth and storage space on the Secret Projects server. I understand that one of the goal's of the forum is that it can serve as an archive for years to come for drawings, artwork, and information concerning unbuilt projects. For example, Flateric has been encouraging that Members use attachments rather than hotlinking to a third-party image hosting site because these links may become dead.

If you believe that the images I have attached do not add value to the forum, may be common place, and/or waste forum resources, then feel free to report my post to a Moderator or Overscan. I will defer to their judgment.

 

[Matej]

I agree. If you have larger and/or better quality images, attach them here. It is always better choice to delete something what is unnecessary than to don't have something, what is interesting.

 

[F-14D]

Power plant: Two 112.5 kN (25,300 lb st) Pratt & Whitney PW7000 turbofans (developed from F-22's F119) with thrust vectoring.

Isn't that a bit low? Or is that figure for dry power only?
The standard F119 delivers about 155+ kN with afterburner...

Verified the number. According to Jane's Aero-Engines Jan 27, 2009:

Possible military engine of the next decade. US military designation not yet allocated. This engine for future supersonic military aircraft is being derived from the Pratt & Whitney F119. According to unofficial reports it is expected to have a slightly lower thrust rating, and to be designed for minimum fuel burn and minimum emissions.

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Aero-Engines/Pratt--Whitney-PW7000-United-States.html

Remember, A/FX was a strike aircraft with secondary fighter capability, while NATF was the reverse. For A/FX, they probably didn't think they needed the blazing performance bestowed by the highre-thrust F119s, and traded off thrust for stealth, range and engine life.

 

[elmayerle]

The Navy used a two stage system very successfully (SM series of missiles), and has for many years.

A ramjet combo has it's own set of problems, which is why the Meteor is STILL not in operation.

Wasn't trying to force ramjet down anyone's throat. BTW, I suspect it would not be a rocket-ramjet combo, but rather an integral rocket/ramjet. The Soviets/Russians have known how to do that for decades. Meteor is not in operation not because it's a ramjet but because it's subject to the vagaries that are universal to posturing politicians.

Not just the Russians, LTV demonstrated the same capability back in the early seventies with the ALVRJ tests but no one wanted to build operational hardware from that.

 

[F-14D]

The Navy used a two stage system very successfully (SM series of missiles), and has for many years.

A ramjet combo has it's own set of problems, which is why the Meteor is STILL not in operation.

Wasn't trying to force ramjet down anyone's throat. BTW, I suspect it would not be a rocket-ramjet combo, but rather an integral rocket/ramjet. The Soviets/Russians have known how to do that for decades. Meteor is not in operation not because it's a ramjet but because it's subject to the vagaries that are universal to posturing politicians.

Not just the Russians, LTV demonstrated the same capability back in the early seventies with the ALVRJ tests but no one wanted to build operational hardware from that.

True. We did six test flights from 1974-76. Got to give the Russians more credit, though, since they had an operational system as far back as 1967.

 

[donnage99]

found from these guys' company website:
http://www.advancedtechnologiesinc.com/default.asp

 

[Colonial-Marine]

Has the Navy ever pushed to ressurect the A/F-X program or for a true successor to it? Would the aircraft's focus have shifted (F/A-X?) if they did? It looks as if the Navy has been less than thrilled with the F-35C, does the missing strike capabilites that would have been provided by the A-12, A-X, or A/F-X play into that?

Looking at the contractor teams again, why did Lockheed and others team up for three or more different proposals and thus compete against themselves? It seems very unusual. Perhaps it was an improvement over the somewhat forced pairings for the A-12 program, but it still looks like a mess.

 

[donnage99]

Has the Navy ever pushed to ressurect the A/F-X program or for a true successor to it? Would the aircraft's focus have shifted (F/A-X?) if they did? It looks as if the Navy has been less than thrilled with the F-35C, does the missing strike capabilites that would have been provided by the A-12, A-X, or A/F-X play into that?

It's called F/A-XX. And where did u get the information that Navy has been less thrilled about f-35C? I'm interested in that.

Looking at the contractor teams again, why did Lockheed and others team up for three or more different proposals and thus compete against themselves? It seems very unusual. Perhaps it was an improvement over the somewhat forced pairings for the A-12 program, but it still looks like a mess.

That way, it would increases the options for the customers to choose from. And from a contractor's point of view, it's a low risk approach, as it increases the chance for them to be in the down selection as they have their legs in more than one proposal.

This is nothing new. Back in the ATF program, Lockheed, Boeing, and GE teamed up with each seperately proposal from each company. The deal is that which ever proposal get selected, the company that is responsible for that proposal would be the team leader.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

It's called F/A-XX. And where did u get the information that Navy has been less thrilled about f-35C? I'm interested in that.

That would make sense, but isn't F/A-XX scheduled for an IOC of 2025? Regarding the F-35C, I shouldn't have sounded so definite, it is just that interest in new batches of Super Hornets (and Boeing is taking advantage of this by proposing Block III upgrades) has some thinking the Navy is a bit on the fence about the whole thing.

That way, it would increases the options for the customers to choose from. And from a contractor's point of view, it's a low risk approach, as it increases the chance for them to be in the down selection as they have their legs in more than one proposal.

I see, but why did they move away from this pattern for the JAST/JSF program?

 

[SOC]

By the time of JSF, there were a lot fewer contractors, weren't there?

 

[donnage99]

And remember that the early days of A-X and A/F-X period was a time when the Navy was just putting it on the table that they need something. Contractors just propose all kinds of stuff from flying wings to delta/canard to see which one the Navy would like to persue further, thus you have each contractor having its legs in many different proposals. The Navy wasn't saying "here are 40 requirements you have to meet." It's more like "alright, so I have these empty spots on the carrier deck and roles to be filled, let's see what u guys can come up with."

 

[Colonial-Marine]

Certainly an interesting choice by the Navy, and they certainly got quite a variety of offerings, even if details on most of these proposals are lacking. I imagine they would have leaned towards a supersonic design considering the change from A-X to A/F-X. But did any official down-selection occur before the program was cancelled?

 

[sublight]

..And where did u get the information that Navy has been less thrilled about f-35C? I'm interested in that.

Read "The Pentagon Paradox". http://www.amazon.com/Pentagon-Paradox-Development-F-18-Hornet/dp/1557507759

The Navy has a long history of covertly sabotaging anything tainted with Air Force development. The F-35C would be no different....

 

[donnage99]

The story of Navy's reaction to the f-111 or f-16/f-18 debate can be used in the f-35c as a possibility for Navy's rejection in the future, but not a garantee as you seem to make it out ot be. The reason is there are many fundamental differences with the Navy this time.
-Unlike the past, the navy seems to be commited to getting their version of f-35c.
-They do not have any alternative of getting a multirole 5th generation stealth aircraft.
-If their high end fighter right now is the super hornet. That says alot about the compromises the navy was willing to make.
-The navy today put alot of emphasis on commonality for affordability. Scrapping the f-35c and go on another Navy exclusive program to get their dedicated aircraft is simply unaffordable.
-Fighter aircraft engineering has advanced enough to blend different requirements into one single airframe and still make it work. This is a statement that the JSF team had to prove to the Navy, Air Force, and Marines during the early days of the program. And they did, though only with words.
-Conclusion: It all depends on how well the f-35c turns out to be with its actual performance on the carrier decks. This will determine the Navy's either support or rejection of the f-35c. Any notion that the rejection is a warrantee is simply false.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I wouldn't say the Navy is committed to F-35C. They are willing to give it a hearing...but are aware of the cost.

Remember, the Navy has a portion of the highly defended target problem handled by Tomahawks. LO isn't considered the end-all the USAF thinks it to be. JSF was always a matter of the Navy being told that this was the only TACAIR game in town and to make the best of it.

 

[donnage99]

I wouldn't say the Navy is committed to F-35C. They are willing to give it a hearing...but are aware of the cost.

"WASHINGTON (NNS) -- The Navy needs the F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighter's fifth-generation capabilities, said the service's acting director of air warfare May 24.
Navy Rear Adm. Michael C. Manazir spoke to reporters because he wanted to "completely dispel the rumor that the Navy is soft on F-35C.""
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=53637

 

[Colonial-Marine]

I hope the Navy gets the F-35C and I hope the whole F-35 program works out well, but hasn't the same "commitment" to a program been stated by the Army and other services shortly before said program gets cancelled?

 

[sublight]

...Any notion that the rejection is a warrantee is simply false.

I think you meant to say "guarantee", and I agree that a rejection isn't guaranteed. However, the Navy's history of "anti air force" behavior is of legendary proportions as documented in that book....

 

[donnage99]

I hope the Navy gets the F-35C and I hope the whole F-35 program works out well, but hasn't the same "commitment" to a program been stated by the Army and other services shortly before said program gets cancelled?

Got cancelled by the Secretary of Defense or the Army?

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

^^that doesn't say it will always happen in the unforeseen future. We don't even know what's the outcome of the F-35C development.

anyway, back to topic, anyone?

 

[flateric]

...

 

[donnage99]

Where, I may ask?

 

[Creative]

That is a beautiful picture, thanks for sharing.

 

[flateric]

Where, I may ask?

www.codeonemagazine.com

 

[flateric]

quite a rarity - McDonnell Douglas-LTV and Lockheed-BoeingA/F-X logos

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Boeing AX model.

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/Test_455:_Boeing_AX

 

[donnage99]

Are these Boeing or team Lockheed/Boeing ?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Looks like Lockheed/Boeing to me.

 

[donnage99]

Looks like Lockheed/Boeing to me.

Both of them? Because there seem to be 2 designs here. One that we have seen so much and one with V tail and different nozzle shape.

 

[Matej]

"McAir Vought AXInlet 1993" Does somebody recognize this configuration? B-2 like air intakes on the top and the swept wing.

 

[donnage99]

Can you provide links to the images?

EDIT: nevermind, found it!
http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/Test_450:_McAir/Vought_AX_Inlet

 

[Matej]

Yes, thats it.

MDD and Vought teamed together in the A/F-X competition as well. I have not seen anything concerning their design. Does anyone have any info on it?

Now... we have.

 

[flateric]

huh. this one is from first page of this topic)))
so many discoveries are still hidden...

 

[F-14D]

You know, it's interesting that Lockheed ran away as fast as it could from participating in the ATA competition, but was on three of the five AX-A/FX teams.

 

[donnage99]

Because Lockheed was......smart?

 

[F-14D]

Because Lockheed was......smart?

You got it; and they knew it, too. This was a conscious decision on their part.

 

[flateric]

Key Lockheed smarties principle was to run away from such things as 'fixed price contract' Northrop was as smart in ATA case

 

[F-14D]

Key Lockheed smarties principle was to run away from such things as 'fixed price contract' Northrop was as smart in ATA case

Navy tried to get Northrop Grumman to reduce their proposal price by at least $1/2 billion or more. Northrop knew this was crazy, and Grumman still had the experience of how they got screwed in the early F-14 program. They replied, "Look; we know how to build this thing and there's no way it can be done for that amount". Navy/DoD answer was, "You'll lower your price or else"!. to which the team replied, "OK. Else"! They then picked up their marbles and walked away, no doubt breathing sighs of relief.

 

[donnage99]

I wonder if the Navy found it odd that for their first attempt at building stealth jet, the only 2 companies at the time with any experience and knowledge in building stealth jets were running away. Wouldn't you hesitate for a moment if things like that happen?

 

[Triton]

I don't understand how Lockheed could be on three of the five AX-A/FX teams. Wouldn't the partners have been concerned that proprietary information would be shared with the other two competing teams that Lockheed was on? Would Lockheed have to operate under Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA) and keep its product teams separate within the company?