Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

[sferrin]

That is literally physically impossible.

Thought the whole point of keeping the tooling was so they could. (I realize standing up a line all over again would be a task but not "physically impossible". )

 

[TomS]

Thought the whole point of keeping the tooling was so they could. (I realize standing up a line all over again would be a task but not "physically impossible". )

So, about a decade ago, it was $10 billion and five years just to get to the point that you could start making them again. And that seems to kinda handwave the fact that they haven't made an F-119 engine from scratch in 20-some years.

Here’s The F-22 Production Restart Study The USAF Has Kept Secret For Over A Year

We finally see the study that was oddly classified on arrival and it has new relevance based on Japan's desire for a new stealth fighter.

www.twz.com

So maybe it's not physically impossible to ever make more F-22s, but it's not possible to do it as a quick stopgap while we consider NGAD options. An F-22 restart would kill any chance of NGAD for a decade at least.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Thought the whole point of keeping the tooling was so they could. (I realize standing up a line all over again would be a task but not "physically impossible". )

Basically the tooling and materials set aside years ago for such an eventuality were (highly illegally) used to shore up the F-35 program instead. They would literally have to build new tooling from scratch and that would just be the start.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

Basically the tooling and materials set aside years ago for such an eventuality were (highly illegally) used to shore up the F-35 program instead. They would literally have to build new tooling from scratch and that would just be the start.

How could they use F-22 manufacturing tooling for the F-35? I very much doubt it's close enough where it could be easily repurposed. If this is true, it seems impossible that the US government could not have known about it. Isn't it the government's task to store all of that stuff and not the task of Lockheed Martin?

Maybe this would be better moved to the F-22 thread.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I very much doubt it's close enough where it could be easily repurposed.

Apparently a lot of kludging was involved. As to how they were able to access the tooling and materials so easily, guess who got the contract to 'safely' store it away in the first place?

 

[flateric]

Basically the tooling and materials set aside years ago for such an eventuality were (highly illegally) used to shore up the F-35 program instead. They would literally have to build new tooling from scratch and that would just be the start.

O RLY? Once more

Here’s The F-22 Production Restart Study The USAF Has Kept Secret For Over A Year

We finally see the study that was oddly classified on arrival and it has new relevance based on Japan's desire for a new stealth fighter.

www.twz.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

That study was discredited ages ago I thought, though?

 

[flateric]

By whom? And can you explain how Raptor tooling can be used to shore up JSF production?

 

[quellish]

O RLY? Once more

My understanding is that around 2016 the Air Force conducted an audit of the F-22 tooling, etc. that was stored at Sierra Army Depot and found everything they expected to be there was there.

If someone is truly interested in this they could contact the Sierra Army Depot public affairs and ask about the audit and wether the F-22 tooling is still stored there. They could also submit a FOIA request to the Air Force for a copy of the audit and specify that a summary of it is all they need and the full details are non responsive, which would (theoretically) reduce the amount of information the Air Force would need to review.

It is still possible that the tooling "burned" in a "flood" like the records of a certain Air Force agency (I have actually been told this before) since the 2016 audit.

Congress did allocate funds for the preservation of the F-22 tooling. The Air Force has ignored the wishes of Congress before, like when they took SR-71 reactivation funding, used it for other things, then claimed the SR-71 was too expensive and could not fly anyway (because they took away the funds allocated by Congress).

 

[Grey Havoc]

By whom? And can you explain how Raptor tooling can be used to shore up JSF production?

I do believe I used the term 'kludging'. And last I heard, Congress (including agencies such as the GAO) have not been able to independently verify the 95% of F-22 production tooling that was supposed to be still extant.

 

[quellish]

I do believe I used the term 'kludging'. And last I heard, Congress (including agencies such as the GAO) have not been able to independently verify the 95% of F-22 production tooling that was supposed to be still extant.

Air Force F-22 Fighter Program

Air Force F-22 Fighter Program

Procurement of Air Force F-22 Raptor fighters began in FY1999, and a total of 195 (177 production aircraft, 16 test aircraft, and 2...

www.everycrsreport.com

F-22 Aircraft: Air Force Needs to Better Document Options Before Making Critical Decisions

F-22 Aircraft: Air Force Needs to Better Document Options Before Making Critical Decisions

The Air Force proposed to divest—i.e., retire—its F-22 Block 20 aircraft without fully documenting the implications. Block 20s are used for training...

www.gao.gov

There is dispute over the costs of restarting production of the F-22 itself at various points. A different issue is that various parts, components, etc. are no longer in production and are not easily replaced (like the radar and engine). That is a different, critical issue.

 

[Forest Green]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1821275118603051101

View: https://x.com/LockheedMartin/status/1821275118603051101

 

[what_is_that]

New F-22 Sensors Could Help Extend the Raptor’s Service Life

Secret new sensors being tested on the F-22 may extend its service life beyond 2030, Air Force officials indicated.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Foo Fighter]

Are there suitable engines that could be fitted to the 'Raptor'? I have seen comments that NGAD is NDEAD over a little while now.

 

[FighterJock]

Would a more powerful variant of the F-135 engine work for the F-22 especially with supercruise Foo Fighter?

 

[Ozair]

Would a more powerful variant of the F-135 engine work for the F-22 especially with supercruise Foo Fighter?

No, I think the dimensions are just too different. Yes some tech could flow back if it hasn't already but no simple swap or upgrade.

 

[paralay]

 

[F119Doctor]

The F135 is larger in diameter, length, and weight than the F119, and would never fit in the F-22 engine bay.

The core module of the F135 is a development of the F119 core with some more advanced technology incorporated. There was a study done on what it would take to install the F135 core into the F119 to take advantage of the technology advancements and bring some commonality to the Depot overhaul process. It was decided at the time that this change was not worth the cost of implementation.

With the F135 Engine Core Upgrade in development, it seems like the ECU could also be incorporated into the F119 with similar changes that were identified in the previous study. Whether it would be cost effective or bring enough performance increase within the remaining F-22 life span is doubtful.

 

[Bruno Anthony]

The F135 is larger in diameter, length, and weight than the F119, and would never fit in the F-22 engine bay.

The core module of the F135 is a development of the F119 core with some more advanced technology incorporated. There was a study done on what it would take to install the F135 core into the F119 to take advantage of the technology advancements and bring some commonality to the Depot overhaul process. It was decided at the time that this change was not worth the cost of implementation.

With the F135 Engine Core Upgrade in development, it seems like the ECU could also be incorporated into the F119 with similar changes that were identified in the previous study. Whether it would be cost effective or bring enough performance increase within the remaining F-22 life span is doubtful.

Were there ever plans to upgrade the F-22 engines? Seems odd if there weren’t any as all the teen series fighters had engine upgrades.

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

That drawing is not accurate, the F119 is smaller than the F135 but not by that much, and per publicly available USAF technical orders, the F119 is 196 inches (4,978 mm) in length with the nozzle flaps fully open, so the scaling is quite a bit off. This image is also a useful reference.

There were some F119 upgrade proposals in the 2000s when the F-22 program wasn't truncated, including some variations with round axisymmetric nozzles for the FB-22, but those didn't come into fruition. Most F119 upgrades have been smaller grade, consisting of durability improvements.

 

[F119Doctor]

There has been a continuing F119 Component Improvement Program to improve the durability of individual parts to meet the specification engine and part life. There has been no physical engine changes to improve thrust performance.

A couple of years ago, P&W determined that the hot section of the engine was not being used as hard as the engine specification and there was usable life remaining at the depot inspection interval. A software change has been developed to incorporate at throttle push in certain parts of the envelope to increase thrust by running the engine hotter. I believe it is in test at Edwards AFB, but has not yet been fielded.

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

New F-22 Sensors Could Help Extend the Raptor’s Service Life

Secret new sensors being tested on the F-22 may extend its service life beyond 2030, Air Force officials indicated.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Aircraft Photo of 91-4007 / AF91-007 | Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor | USA - Air Force | AirHistory.net #648242

Aircraft photo of 91-4007 / AF91-007 / ED - Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor - USA - Air Force (411 FLTS), taken by Dan Stijovich at Edwards - AFB (KEDW / EDW) in California, United States on 25 January 2024 during the

www.airhistory.net

91-4007 from January this year.