Is there any reason why some German Carrier designs had the superstructure and funnel on the Port side and not the starboard side? I haven't really seen a vivid reason to this.
Influenced from Japanese carriers designs, there's one booklet on invenio in "naval attaché" sections (Japan) mentioned "commissioned study on Japanese carriers", they pointed out what German learned from Akagi, Soryou, Hiryou and Ryujou, i haven't bother to translated nor read far enough yet.
 
Seawarpeace is a very good place to look into German warships. However just be careful on what you read on there. Some of the information is a bitch sketchy or just straight up outdated.
 
Do you have blueprint of Europa´s armor scheme?
Europa doesn't have any armor planned for conversion, she does retain original ocean liner multiple watertight compartments and additional bulges added to improve ship stability, there's one deck plan of her and sisters on google (also include machinery and engine hull).
 
Last edited:
Do you think Europa and Graf zeppelin would make huge difference in war if they would finish/convert them?
 
Do you think Europa and Graf zeppelin would make huge difference in war if they would finish/convert them?
It's super difficult to say. I want to say yes, at least for Graf Zeppelin. GZ was designed as a breakthrough ship from the outset, having armor on-par or greater than heavy cruisers with the armament of a light cruiser per side. Despite what those with lesser knowledge (or intelligence) might say about hangar capacity, the deck space of her hangars is at least comparable to other large fleet carriers - though the aviation fuel capacity (not known for her 1942 configuration) and plane types used are certainly something worthy of scrutiny. She is also incredibly fast. Speed and power are not something the Kriegsmarine's ships and steam plants are known for lacking, but the expected range has always been wildly overestimated. This was partially offset by the inclusion of fuel in the bulges added in 1942.
All these factors combine to make her quite the threat on her own, yet still very useful in conjunction with other raiders in many respects. She would be an asset to any KM force attempting to break into the Atlantic, and could very well be a sole survivor even in the event the force is destroyed. One might believe she'd be simply countered by the introduction of more carriers into the Atlantic - but that's exactly the point, isn't it?
As for Europa...well, she's not exactly what you'd call ripe for Atlantic deployment. She's much more dependent on others for protection, and although she's pretty fast at her top speed (capable of keeping up at most fleet speeds), she would not escape either CLs or CAs, both of which pose a serious risk. I would worry that in the event that the raiding force needs to retreat from a larger Allied force, all Europa would become is the next Blucher. A very nice target for heavy British guns.
It's hard to find a place for Europa within the KMs stratagems. She was such an ersatz idea, brought about by desperation more than anything. I feel as though that she would be quite the waste of time and resources comparative to a dedicated carrier with a tonnage as low as 15,000.
 
Do you think Europa and Graf zeppelin would make huge difference in war if they would finish/convert them?
It's super difficult to say. I want to say yes, at least for Graf Zeppelin. GZ was designed as a breakthrough ship from the outset, having armor on-par or greater than heavy cruisers with the armament of a light cruiser per side. Despite what those with lesser knowledge (or intelligence) might say about hangar capacity, the deck space of her hangars is at least comparable to other large fleet carriers - though the aviation fuel capacity (not known for her 1942 configuration) and plane types used are certainly something worthy of scrutiny. She is also incredibly fast. Speed and power are not something the Kriegsmarine's ships and steam plants are known for lacking, but the expected range has always been wildly overestimated. This was partially offset by the inclusion of fuel in the bulges added in 1942.
All these factors combine to make her quite the threat on her own, yet still very useful in conjunction with other raiders in many respects. She would be an asset to any KM force attempting to break into the Atlantic, and could very well be a sole survivor even in the event the force is destroyed. One might believe she'd be simply countered by the introduction of more carriers into the Atlantic - but that's exactly the point, isn't it?
As for Europa...well, she's not exactly what you'd call ripe for Atlantic deployment. She's much more dependent on others for protection, and although she's pretty fast at her top speed (capable of keeping up at most fleet speeds), she would not escape either CLs or CAs, both of which pose a serious risk. I would worry that in the event that the raiding force needs to retreat from a larger Allied force, all Europa would become is the next Blucher. A very nice target for heavy British guns.
It's hard to find a place for Europa within the KMs stratagems. She was such an ersatz idea, brought about by desperation more than anything. I feel as though that she would be quite the waste of time and resources comparative to a dedicated carrier with a tonnage as low as 15,000.
Had Graf Zeppelin and her sister ship or just Graf Zeppelin and any converted carrier been actually used in the war, they probably would have most likely been used as floating flat tops in Norway. That's also another possibility.
 
Last edited:
A related discussion on Graf Zeppelin which I was involved in on another forum.
The consensus seems to be that the pause in armament production following the Blitzkrieg of 1940 crippled any hopes for Graf Zeppelin. The ship wasn't ready and her aircraft weren't in production either and her air group had been used to fill in losses during the Battle of France and Battle of Britain.
There is no discernible push from the RLM post 1941 for new carrier-based aircraft - yes there were some projects like the Me 155 etc. but no drive to see them get to prototype stage let alone production. Like most parts of Nazi Germany the RLM and OKM were following different trajectories and timings when it came to aircraft and ship projects, even with Graf Zeppelin the timings didn't really align.

 
Do you know if there are any other 3D models or renders of Europa than those that are in wows forum about almost german Cv´s?
 
Do you know if there are any other 3D models or renders of Europa than those that are in wows forum about almost german Cv´s?
They're rare given how obscure Europa is (or lack of interests from modelers), this is one i know so far.
I don´t understand why this isn´t more popular project. When H-44 is very popular even when it isn´t realistic at all, the europa would be the biggest ship in battle of atlantic and that sounds cool. I hope anybody would make it.
 
Do you know if there are any other 3D models or renders of Europa than those that are in wows forum about almost german Cv´s?
They're rare given how obscure Europa is (or lack of interests from modelers), this is one i know so far.
I don´t understand why this isn´t more popular project. When H-44 is very popular even when it isn´t realistic at all, the europa would be the biggest ship in battle of atlantic and that sounds cool. I hope anybody would make it.
Many German Carrier designs weren't serious considered. Also the Luftwaffe wasn't interested in making Navalized planes so there is also that.
 
Do you know if there are any other 3D models or renders of Europa than those that are in wows forum about almost german Cv´s?
They're rare given how obscure Europa is (or lack of interests from modelers), this is one i know so far.
I don´t understand why this isn´t more popular project. When H-44 is very popular even when it isn´t realistic at all, the europa would be the biggest ship in battle of atlantic and that sounds cool. I hope anybody would make it.
I think some of the same reasons that make Aquila not as popular as, say, the Littorio class apply here.
I still think Europa is interesting, even if it has to compete with the aura that seems to magically come with the H-class designs.
Perhaps she might have been even more interesting if her rebuild was as comprehensive as Aquila's.
 
Did germans plan any other aircraft carriers than that you have in folder on first page?
 
There were some:

Small Aircraft Carrier
Seydlitz
Jade
De Grasse
21000t Design
Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier
Small Aircarft Carrier Project A
Small Aircarft Carrier Project B
Ausonia
Graf Zeppelin
Europa
Flugzeugträger A I
Flugdeckkreuzer E IV
Flugdeckkreuzer E V
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A II
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A III
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV
 
Supposedly during preliminary discussions for Plan Z (the so-called Blueprint III), the Kriegsmarine considered building 4 12,000t light carriers alongside the Graf Zeppelins, but this was dropped by the time Plan Z was solidified. Is there any info about these supposed 12000t light carriers?
 
There were some:

Small Aircraft Carrier
Seydlitz
Jade
De Grasse
21000t Design
Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier
Small Aircarft Carrier Project A
Small Aircarft Carrier Project B
Ausonia
Graf Zeppelin
Europa
Flugzeugträger A I
Flugdeckkreuzer E IV
Flugdeckkreuzer E V
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A II
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A III
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV
Hi Tzoli.

While all of these designs existed, many of them weren't "serious" projects. According to the Haedler article, (Marine Rundschau, Jan/Feb 1972) these may have been "busy work" projects to keep the younger naval architects from being being diverted to other jobs. (The Russian Front???) The " Gross Flugzeugkreuzer" designs were particularly bad, and "Flugzeugträger A I" wasn't much either.

DRW
 
There were some:

Small Aircraft Carrier
Seydlitz
Jade
De Grasse
21000t Design
Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier
Small Aircarft Carrier Project A
Small Aircarft Carrier Project B
Ausonia
Graf Zeppelin
Europa
Flugzeugträger A I
Flugdeckkreuzer E IV
Flugdeckkreuzer E V
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A II
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A III
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV
Hi Tzoli.

While all of these designs existed, many of them weren't "serious" projects. According to the Haedler article, (Marine Rundschau, Jan/Feb 1972) these may have been "busy work" projects to keep the younger naval architects from being being diverted to other jobs. (The Russian Front???) The " Gross Flugzeugkreuzer" designs were particularly bad, and "Flugzeugträger A I" wasn't much either.

DRW
Well the same applies to the other Kriegsmarine projects post Barbarossa.
 
Some data about the carriers I've mentioned: (What data I have about them)
You can read more about them here:

Small Aircraft Carrier / Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger - 1937
Small escort carrier to provide fighter cover
161 (oa) x 16 x 5,5m
6.000tons
45.000shp, Diesel, 2 shafts
4x2 10,5cm, 4x2 37mm, 8x2 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 15 (Fighters)

Seydlitz / Project Weser I - 1942
Conversion project of the KMS Seydltz heavy cruiser of the Admiral Hipper / Prinz Eugen class
201,5 (wl) x 217 (oa) x 32 x 7,9m
17.139tons
132.000shp, Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 59km/h, 12.000km
80mm Belt at 12.5°, 30mm Machinery, 40mm Magazine deck, 50mm slopes Armour
5x2 10,5cm, 5x2 37mm, 6x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 18-20 (Likely 10 Fighters, 8-10 Bombers)

Gneisenau,Potsdam / Project Jade,Elbe - 1942
Conversion of two Passenger liners SS Gneisenau and Potsdam
191 (wl) x 203 (oa) x 26,8 x 8,85m
18.160tons / 23.500tons
26.000shp, Steam Turbines, 2 shafts, 39km/h, 16.700km
15mm Machinery, 10mm Magazine Belt, 20mm deck Armour
6x2 10,5cm, 5x2 37mm, 8x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 24 (Likely 12 Fighters, 12 Diver Bombers)

De Grasse / Project Hilfsflugzeugträger II - 1942
Conversion of the unfinished French light cruiser MN De Grasse of the La Galissonnière class
192,5 (oa) x 24,4 x 5,6m
11.400tons
100.000shp, Steam Turbines, 2 shafts, 59km/h, 13.000km
6x2 10,5cm, 6x2 37mm, 6x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 23 (Likely 11 Fighters, 12 Bombers)

21.000ton design / Project Leichter Flugzeugträger 21.000ton - 1942
Dedicated, well armed light carrier project
255 (oa) x 26 x 8m
21.000 / 26.000tons
175.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 33.000km
8x2 15cm, 6x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm, 3x4 20mm Guns, 2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
Aircraft: 15 (Likely 9 Fighters, 6 Bombers)

Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier -1942
Specialized Merchant and commerce raiding Carrier project
196 (oa) x 22 x 7,6m
18.000tons
90.000shp, Diesel, 3 shafts, 56km/h, 33.000km
4x2 15cm, 4x2 10,5cm, 8x2 37mm, 3x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 28 (Likely 12 Fighters, 16 Bombers)

Small Aircraft Carrier A / Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger A - 1942
Dedicated light carrier project
172 (oa) x 22 x 7,25m
15.000tons
46.000shp, Diesel, 3 shafts, 48km/h, 33.000km
4x2 15cm, 4x2 10,5cm, 8x2 37mm, 4x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 22 (Likely 12 Fighters, 10 Bombers)

Small Aircraft Carrier B / Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger B - 1942
Dedicated light carrier project
180 (oa) x 22 x 7,5m
17.000tons
120.000shp, Steam Turbines, 2 shafts, 61km/h, 22.000km
2x2 10,5cm, 8x2 37mm, 6x1 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 15 (Likely 9 Fighters, 6 Bombers)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ausonia / Project Flugzeugträger I - 1918
Conversion project of the incomplete Italian passenger ship Ausonia
158,8 (oa) x 18,8 x 7,43m
17.000tons
18.000shp, Steam Turbines, 2 shafts, 39km/h,
Aircraft: 29-30 (Likely 19-20 Fighters, 10 Bombers)

Graf Zeppelin / Project Flugzeugträger A - 1936
The well known Graf Zeppelin class of two ships: Flugzeugträger A and B or Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser

Europa / Project Europa - 1942
Conversion project of the passenger ship SS Europa
291,5 (oa) x 37 x 10,3m
44.000 / 56.500tons
100.000shp, Steam Turbines, 4 shafts, 49km/h, 18.500km
6x2 10,5cm, 10x2 37mm, 9x4 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 42 (Likely 24 Fighters, 18 Bombers)

Aircraft Carrier A I / Project Flugzeugträger A I - 1942
Dedicated Carrier design, improved Graf Zeppelin
245 (oa) x 32 x 8,75m
37.500tons
210.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 33.300km
80mm Machinery, 100mm Magazine Belt, 60mm Machinery, 85mm Magazine deck, 60mm Slopes Armour
8x2 15cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 5x2 37mm Guns
Aircraft: 32 (Likely 12 Fighters, 20 Diver Bombers)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flightdeck Cruiser E IV / Project Flugdeckkreuzer E IV - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with light cruiser armament
188,87m (oa)
12.750tons
120.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h
80mm Machinery, 100mm Magazine Belt, 60mm Machinery, 85mm Magazine deck, 60mm Slopes Armour
4x1 15cm, 8x2 8,8cm, 6x2 37mm, 4x2 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 18 (Likely 10 Fighters, 8 Diver Bombers)

Flightdeck Cruiser E V / Project Flugdeckkreuzer E V - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with light cruiser armament
210m (oa)
19.150tons
180.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 66km/h
80mm Machinery, 100mm Magazine Belt, 60mm Machinery, 85mm Magazine deck, 60mm Slopes Armour
4x2 15cm, 5x2 8,8cm, 6x2 37mm, 6x2 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 18 (Likely 10 Fighters, 8 Diver Bombers)

Large Flightdeck Cruiser A II / Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A II - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with heavy cruiser armament, likely a modification of the A I design
245 (oa) x 32 x 8,75m
40.000tons
210.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 33.300km
100mm Belt, 150mm deck, 100mm Slopes Armour
1x4 20,3cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm
Aircraft: 24 (Likely 12 Fighters, 12 Diver Bombers)

Large Flightdeck Cruiser A IIa / Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with Scharnhorst type battlecruiser armament, a modification of the A II design
250 (oa) x 32 x 8,75m
40.000tons
210.000shp, Diesel+Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 33.300km
200mm Belt, 100mm deck, 100mm Slopes Armour
2x3 28cm, 6x2 15cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm, 10x2 20mm Guns
Aircraft: 24 (Likely 12 Fighters, 12 Diver Bombers)

Large Flightdeck Cruiser A III / Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A III - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with Scharnhorst type battlecruiser armament
280 (oa) x 38 x 11,5m
70.000tons
280.000shp, Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 37.000km
250mm Belt, 150mm deck, 100mm Slopes Armour
2x3 28cm, 8x2 15cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm Guns, 2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
Aircraft: 32 (Likely 12 Fighters, 20 Diver Bombers)

Large Flightdeck Cruiser A IV / Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV - 1942
Hybrid Battlecarrier design with Scharnhorst type battlecruiser armament, a modification of the A III design
280 (oa) x 38 x 11,5m
70.000tons
280.000shp, Steam Turbines, 3 shafts, 63km/h, 37.000km
250mm Belt, 120mm deck, 100mm Slopes Armour
1x4 28cm, 8x2 15cm, 8x2 10,5cm, 7x2 37mm Guns, 2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
Aircraft: 32 (Likely 12 Fighters, 20 Diver Bombers)




Based on the project designations there are still a few missing variants l9ike
Flugdeckkreuzer E I trough III or any post development of E V and A IV
 
Do you have blueprints of flugzeugtrager A I? Info that Tzoli written looks very interesting. Could that be the flugzeugtrager C and D when it have three shafts?
 
Do you have blueprints of flugzeugtrager A I? Info that Tzoli written looks very interesting. Could that be the flugzeugtrager C and D when it have three shafts?
I'm pretty sure they're in the Share Drive under Carriers. A I was an entirely new development, though recognizably related to Flugzeugtrager A (GZ).
 
Here are the drawings that I have downloaded ages ago:
Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier:
18000Carrier-b.jpg

21.000ton design:

21000Carrier-b.jpg

Aircraft Carrier A I / Project Flugzeugträger A I:
CarrierA-I-b.jpg

Ausonia:
ausonia.JPG

De Grasse / Project Hilfsflugzeugträger II:
germandg.jpg

Project Europa:
aaagerncvb.jpg

CVEuropa.jpg
cvgertf.jpg

Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa:
25rl9i1.jpg(br.jpg

Flugzeugkreuzer A II:
k9uxxi.jpg(br.jpg

Flugzeugkreuzer A III:
dmxou8.jpg(br.jpg

Flugzeugkreuzer A IV:
25f6no4.jpg(br.jpg

Grossflugzeugkreuzer A III:
a3.gif
GER_CVc.gif

Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger A:
15000Carrier-b.jpg

Project Kleiner Flugzeugträger B:
SmallCarrier-b.jpg

Graf Zeppelin.
Check the image attachements.

 

Attachments

  • Graf_Zeppelin1.png
    836.1 KB · Views: 66
  • Graf_Zeppelin2.png
    696.6 KB · Views: 68
Aircraft Carrier "C" and "D" never been designed (talked in previous threads), they were only speculated to be smaller and more cost-effective light carrier type (the mostly using to conducting long-range commerce raiding, which led to heavy use of diesel engines).
The 21000, 15000, 12000 and even smaller commerce carriers are reflected to that.
Funny, there's one design "C" variant from Large Atlantic Carrier "A III" (this doesn't matter according to committees because none of these projects are serious), which have double amount of aircraft (60 vs 32) by removing belt armor, reducing some protection elsewhere.
 
Do you have any info about Europa´s flight deck dimensions like width on both ends and thicknes?
 
From Wiki:
The ship's flight deck was 276 m (906 ft) long and 30 m (98 ft) wide. There was a single hangar that was 216 m (709 ft) long, 25 m (82 ft) wide forward, and 30 m (98 ft) wide aft. No armor was to have been added to the ship during the conversion process.[6]

Source:
Gröner, Erich (1990). German Warships: 1815–1945. Vol. I: Major Surface Vessels. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 978-0-87021-790-6.
 
Can you recommend me some books about german carriers, Bismarck class etc.?
 
I don't have such books, German, especially WW2 German navy ain't my favorite. But others should provide titles.
 
In the mean time here is my drawing of the Flottentorpedoboote 1944 or T52 class based on official sketch:
dg1xpu9-450f242d-add0-4929-96dc-ccd95568c93a.png


The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 98 (wl) x 103 (oa) x 10,1 x 3,07m
Displacement: 1.418ons (standard), 1.794tons (full load)
Engines: 52.000shp Wagner Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Speed: 69km/h (37-37,5knots)
Range: 8.300km (4.500nm)
Armaments:
2x2 10.5cm/52 SK C/36 Guns,
5x2 3cm/73 SK C/30 AA Guns,
2x3 53cm Torpedo Tubes,
60x Mines

Sensors:
FuMo 24/25 (Above the rangefinder in front of the Mainmast)
FuMo 63 Hohentweil-K (Behind the 2nd funnel)
FuMo 231 Euklid (On the front of the Rangefinder FlakleitGerat M42)
 
Last edited:
Wow Sarcasticat. I do not know how you got the drawings, but wow and thank you. I have spent the last few years looking for information on Panzershiff Lutzow, and in 5 minutes bang.

Do you have any drawings for 1936A Mob destroyer or 1937 Type torpedo boat T13-T21?
 
Wow Sarcasticat. I do not know how you got the drawings, but wow and thank you. I have spent the last few years looking for information on Panzershiff Lutzow, and in 5 minutes bang.

Do you have any drawings for 1936A Mob destroyer or 1937 Type torpedo boat T13-T21?
Hello Sask,

I do this because when I was young...er...I was always in a situation where I couldn't find any of the plans I wanted, left asking or begging others. After being brushed off (many do not really care for the KM) several times (and for several years!), I decided to take matters in my own hands.

You can find digitized versions here on Bundesarchiv under RM 25 (this will initially lead you to Nurnberg iirc, and you can go from there).


I also contacted historical investigators who could bypass a lot of red tape and photo plans directly using their status, or could hook me up with digitized versions - for a cost.

As for Type 1936A...it's been a bit elusive, but I think I have a plan or two, and the same goes for the Type 1937's. You'll have to give me a few days to get you these images, but rest assured that I pull through much more often than most.
 
Last edited:
@Tzoli Only changes I would make to your description is that the 3cm/73 guns are MK 303's and that the weights are in long tons.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom