Kriegsmarine - KM Naval Armament Plans/Discussion

[alexi]

Thanks. Can you repost it to save a search and rescue mission?

Am not sure what you mean PT.

Anyway, i found a project of twin DP 203mm gun (fitted with the recoil rammers), is designated for coastal defense but imagine a navalized version of it.
View attachment RH_8_3039_K_0009.jpg

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Am not sure what you mean PT.

Anyway, i found a project of twin DP 203mm gun, is designated for coastal defense but imagine a navalized version of it.
View attachment 708264

I believe he means to say that he would appreciate it if you would repost the plan you're referring to so that he does not need to spend his time scrounging for it.

Am not sure what you mean PT.

Anyway, i found a project of twin DP 203mm gun, is designated for coastal defense but imagine a navalized version of it.
View attachment 708264

Now this is rather interesting...actually, this is spectacular! It would be nice to know armor, train/elevation rates, and the like, but it's still a very interesting plan, to be sure.

 

[alexi]

What was the roller path diameter for the 8" turrets on the Hipper class?

Smaller, 20,3cm/L60 twins roller path is 5330.

 

[Junef]

Hello, I'm happy to be a part of this great thread.

I'm interested in the weponary especially, "15 cm/55 SK Drh.L.C/34" secondary twin turrets used by Sharnhorst-class, Bismarck-class, H-class battleships and M-class cruiser. https://www.artstation.com/artwork/eJwJZX

Two turrets have survived the war and now reside in the Stevnsfort. But after examining the interior photos taken by tourists, I have noticed that many of the internal fittings are not originals (especially back wall mountings). Refer to the drawings from "Unterrichtstafeln für Geschützkunde - Band 1: Seeziel". https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=83669&start=45
Especially the "Firing control panel" on the back side was completely removed (term from "The Battleship Bismarck [Anatomy of The Ship]")

The configuration of the original interior fittings on the backside of the wall and their functions are mystery which i wanna research.
Visualizing the original intended structure will help understanding the intention of the German builder.
Does the bundesarchive have the documents related to the turret?
Any blueprints, drawings and the interior photos are greatly appreciated which are not from "Unterrichtstafeln für Geschützkunde - Band 1: Seeziel"
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General info

Differences between Bismarck and Sharnhorst class's 15 cm twin turrets
- Armour thickness
Scharnhorst: front 140mm; sides 60mm, rear 70mm, roof 30-50mm
Bismarck: front 100mm; sides and rear 40mm, roof 20-35mm
Source: "The Battleship Bismarck (Anatomy of The Ship)", "The Battleship Sharnhorst (Anatomy of The Ship)", RM 20/1913

- External appearance
There are rivets joining the sides and back plates in Bismarck's but not in Scharnhorst's
There are rivets along the bottom edge in Bismarck's but not in Scharnhorst's
A pair of fitting on the frontal plate between the guns (Cylindrical vs Button shape).
Source: No source, Just compared the photos from Bundesarchiv.

15 cm twin turret composition on the German battleships.
- Sharnhorst-- 4 x long shaft "15 cm/55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret"
- Bismarck---- 2 x long shaft, "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret", 4 x short shaft "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret"
- H-class------ 2 x long shaft "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret", 4 x short shaft "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret"
For Bismarck and H-class only the forward one had the long turret.
The others were located at the edge of the ship right above the Turtle-back armour. It creates slanted armored deck making the turret
to be one level shorter unlike the forward turret which is located closer to the middle-line.
Source:"The Battleship Bismarck (Anatomy of The Ship)"

Levels of the turret
Long shaft: Gun house level - Train mechanism level - Machinery level - Workshop level - Ammunition handling level
Short shaft: Gun house level - Train mechanism level - Machinery level - (Workshop level + Ammunition handling level)
For the short shaft, Workshop level and Ammunition handling level became one.
https://samlinger.natmus.dk/fhm/asset/210109 you can see the screw at the bottom and welding point on the top looks odd.
Source: "The Battleship Bismarck (Anatomy of The Ship)", "The Battleship Sharnhorst (Anatomy of The Ship)"

Coastal bunker type
There were two types of coastal bunkers which can house those 15 cm twin turret mounts.
The "M184" and "M219". "M184" was one level shorter than the "M219".
M184 was intended to use the surplus short turrets of the H-class battleship.
Whearas M219 was intended to house "Drh.L.C/34 turret". The long shaft turret.
Source:
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Regelbauten/Mittelbatterien.htm
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Regelbauten/Marine/RBM184.htm
https://www.regelbau.dk/regelbau_visbunker.asp?id=294

What's interesting is that bunker of the Fanø (the turrets are now in Stevnsfort) was "M184" type which cannot accomodate the long shaft of the Gnei's secondary turret. A document found in the Bundesarchiv tells more about this story.
"Buildings of permanent fortifications Batt. Graadyb work stopped because planned turrets are not coming to Fanö. Reconstruction of towers in terms of fortress construction and weapons technology (shortening of the tower core) is underway"
Source: BA-MA, RM 31/3215 (All the credit goes to a member from "Axishistory" forum)
The expected turret might be the short turret of the H-class battleship mentioned above.
One that had been shortened must be Gnei's.

Examples
Location------------------------bunker type----------------------------turret mount-------------------------------------origin
Petsamo (Finland)------------2 x M219 bunker-----2 x long shaft, "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret"-----------------H-class
Sylt (Germany)---------------2 x M184 bunker-----2 x short shaft, "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret"-----------------H-class
Borkum (Germany)-----------2 x M184 bunker-----2 x short shaft, "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret"-----------------H-class
Den Helder (Netherlands)----2 x M219 bunker-----2 x long shaft, "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret"-----------------Gneisenau
Fanø (Denmark)---------------2 x M184 bunker----2 x short (modified) shaft, "15 cm /55 SK Drh.L.C/34 turret"----Gneisenau
Some of them are complete or partially built.
Second hand reference: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=201637
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=83669&start=30

15 cm twin Turrets and Gun's serial numbers
Turret number
Sharnhorst: Turret number: #1 ~ #4
Gneisenau: Turret number: #5 ~ #8
Gun number
Sharnhorst: 1000 ~ 1007
Gneisenau: 1008 ~ 1015
1. Den Helder
Turret #6, Gun Sn# 1008, 1010
Turret #8, Gun Sn# 1012, 1014
2. Fanø (Stevns):
Turret #5, Gun Sn# 1009, 1011
Turret #7, Gun Sn# 1013, 1015
Source: http://www.atlantvoldsydvest.dk/2022/02/13/dokumentation-af-gneisenaus-kanoner-i-danmark-1944-2021/

Update
2023.10.17 - The rear armour thickness of the Gnei's turret has been chnaged from 60 mm to 70 mm (RM 20/1913)
2023.10.17 - Replaced the "C/28 turret" to ""C/34" following the the manuals (RM6). (List 1, 2 jpg)
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[alexi]

"Unterrichtstafeln für Geschützkunde - Band 1: Seeziel"

This books and some of its related documents is in RM 129, but none have digitalize yet, as for 15cm/L55 C/34 turret? There are some in RM 24, mostly generic sketches showing cables and electrics etc, there's one sketch show optic mount.

 

[Junef]

This books and some of its related documents is in RM 129, but none have digitalize yet, as for 15cm/L55 C/34 turret? There are some in RM 24, mostly generic sketches showing cables and electrics etc, there's one sketch show optic mount.

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I was looking for the diagrams of the electric sets as those are curretly missing from the wall mountings (Circuit boards and a heater).
The missing heater set was replaced when the turret was modernized but very similar one can be found in Austratt fort.
But other than that it's frustrating to find similar components between those two which might help me deduce their funcionality.

Were they digitized? Then what's there numbers (including the optic)?
I saw that through RM_24_286 ~ RM_24_326, The plans are related to 28cm/54 SK C/34 in coastal turret.
Similary, Is there blueprints for the coastal mount for the 15 cm/L55 C/34 twin turret?
It will explain a lot of question on the problem for the designation and the structural differences between the short and the long turret.
Also, It will be fun to compare them with the RDN (Royal danish navy) post war drawings (might be modified from the drawings from "Unterrichtstafeln für Geschützkunde - Band 1: Seeziel") of the turret I have acquired.

I really appreciate your help.

 

[alexi]

Were they digitized? Then what's there numbers (including the optic)?

RM 24/353 for optic mounts, circuit boards starting from RM 24/346 to /355.

Similary, Is there blueprints for the coastal mount for the 15 cm/L55 C/34 twin turret?

They're in RM 6 but not a single have digitalize yet, there are sketch design for triple 15cm/L60 C/25, a land-based 15cm/L50 (DP?), some 15cm/45,55,60 barrel data and coastal turrets.
Here's the file names:
- M.Dv. Nr. 233,115 Die 15 cm Schnellade-Kanone C/28 in 15 cm Drehscheiben-Lafette C/34.- Band V.- Schmierstellenübersicht
- M.Dv. Nr. 233,115 Die 15 cm Schnellade-Kanone C/28 in 15 cm Drehscheiben-Lafette C/34.- Mechanische Einrichtungen.- Band IIa.- Zieleinrichtungen und Vorschrit für die Behandlung und Instandhaltung der Zieleinrichtungen
- M.Dv. Nr. 233,115 Die 15 cm Schnellade-Kanone C/28 in 15 cm Drehscheiben-Lafette C/34.- Vorläufige Beschreibung.- Band III.- Abfeueranlage
- M.Dv. Nr. 233,115 Die 15 cm Schnellade-Kanone C/28 in 15 cm Drehscheiben-Lafette C/34.- Band IIIa.- Höhenvorzünderwerke C/36
- M.Dv. Nr. 233,115 Die 15 cm Schnellade-Kanone C/28 in 15 cm Drehscheiben-Lafette C/34.- Vorläufige Beschreibung.- Band IV.- Warnanlage
- M.Dv. Nr. 436,28 Vorläufige Vorschrift für die Behandlung und Instandhaltung der 15 cm S.K. C/28 in 15 cm Drh. L. C/34

 

[Junef]

RM 24/353 for optic mounts, circuit boards starting from RM 24/346 to /355.

RM 24/346 ~ /355 seem to contain some blueprints for the D.r.h.L.C/34a (brakets? clamps? linkage? not circuit board for sure)
And I have feeling that they are not related to the 15 cm/55 twin mounts which I was disscussing above but rather related to 38 cm twin mount used by bismarck-class.

Also, the aft view plan of the turret D.r.h.L.C/34a (RM 24/331) shows nothing in common when compared to the re-drawn plans (15 cm twin mount) from the book "The Battleship Bismarck (Anatomy of The Ship)", "The Battleship Sharnhorst (Anatomy of The Ship)". Also, a pair of the recoil absorbers is on the bottom of the breech (RM 24/331) but for 15 cm guns (the twin mount) it is on the top of the breech.

(Photos: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-55_skc28.php)
If you don't mind, could you re-check whether this is true?

I have looked into the digitalized copies by using the following method.
1. Go to https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Navigation/Find/Digitised-Fonds/digitised-fonds.html
2. Click "Norddeutscher Bund und Deutsches Reich (1867/1871-1945)"
3. Click "RM 24 OKM / Marineverwaltungsamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine"
4. In the "Klassifikation" tab on the left-bottom side, click one of the followings "micht klassifiziert", "nicht bewertet", "1.4 Digitaliserte, noch nicht ershlossene Dokumente (drop down menu)".
5. Click "Digitalisat anzeigen" to see the scanned copy.

They're in RM 6 but not a single have digitalize yet, there are sketch design for triple 15cm/L60 C/25, a land-based 15cm/L50 (DP?), some 15cm/45,55,60 barrel data and coastal turrets.

If I understood correctly, "RM 6" contains the M.Dv.Nr.233 and 436 manuals for the 15 cm/55 twin mount. (RM6 constains book type documents?) Which is promising, Thank you!
It is quite unfortunate as I have no ways to view those content as the archive center is too far away.

I picked random number and viewed its digitalized content for an hour. What's pretty interesting was the most frequent plans I've encountered were 28 cm gun and its D.r.h.L.C/28 turret (related to turret construction not the ammunition) for the "Deutschland" and "Sharnhorst" class. Next was 38 cm gun and turret plans for the Bismarck-class. Numerous ammunition sketches as the signiture number goes up. Many of the plans are written with D.r.h.L.C/28 without "cm", I think those plans are for the 28 cm guns. This is just a guess but If a plan were to be related to the secondary turret, In order to disthinguish themselves with the main turrets, it needs to have "15 cm", "15 cm/55" or 15 cm/l55" as a prefix which I have found nothing .
I will try searching it for more but is there any chance that they might be in the range between RM 24/1 ~ RM 24/250 (they are not digitized yet) ? or in another folder?

 

[dan_inbox]

iHi Junef,
your info about accessing Bundesarchiv.de is worth an entry in the section Other Resources > Found on the Internet

 

[alexi]

RM 24/346 ~ /355 seem to contain some blueprints for the D.r.h.L.C/34a (brakets? clamps? linkage? not circuit board for sure)
And I have feeling that they are not related to the 15 cm/55 twin mounts which I was disscussing above but rather related to 38 cm twin mount used by bismarck-class.

I could posts them here later, i already make a txt list of all RM 24 related folders years ago just in case i got lost, am certain some of them are related to 15cm/C34.

D.r.h.L.C/34a (RM 24/331)

Oops, looks like i got the numbers mixed up between folder number orders versus "Alte Signatur" (alternative signature), it should be RM24/650 (RM 24-1/353), for optic mounts.

I have looked into the digitalized copies by using the following method.

Same methods i used on bunderachive, you can search digitalized files more efficient with "suche" (search), just type in "Marineverwaltungsamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine" it will show all digitalized files and save your times.

I will try searching it for more but is there any chance that they might be in the range between RM 24/1 ~ RM 24/250 (they are not digitized yet) ? or in another folder?

Some files doesn't have name, called "Ohne Titel" (unknown title) not many have digitalized so far, but they're usually hidden treasure to me, but am afraid the 15cm turret plans you looking for haven't digitalize yet on the archives.

Are you German peharps? sound like you have experience and better archive accessing.

 

[Junef]

iHi Junef,
your info about accessing Bundesarchiv.de is worth an entry in the section Other Resources > Found on the Internet

Done. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...s-in-bundesarchive-online-kriegsmarine.42328/

I could posts them here later, i already make a txt list of all RM 24 related folders years ago just in case i got lost, am certain some of them are related to 15cm/C34.

It will save tremendous amount of time for everybody.
I really hope to see that list soon.

Same methods i used on bunderachive, you can search digitalized files more efficient with "suche" (search), just type in "Marineverwaltungsamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine" it will show all digitalized files and save your times.

Thanks for the great tip!

Some files doesn't have name, called "Ohne Titel" (unknown title) not many have digitalized so far, but they're usually hidden treasure to me, but am afraid the 15cm turret plans you looking for haven't digitalize yet on the archives.

Yes, It seems someone was eagar to find documents related to 28 cm guns rather than 15 cm that's why there are so many bunch of them. It seems money is the problem now. I heard that requesting for a scanned copy was quite a sum of money.

Are you German peharps? sound like you have experience and better archive accessing.

Sorry, I'm not German. But I had previous experiences with this archive for researching the Flak AA. long time ago.....

I like conventional method, I mean researching the existing, surviving artillery and weapons from the wartime will definitely help understanding the planned (or secret?) weapons more thoroughly. It might also solve the intended uses for the untitiled plans.

I chose the 15 cm turret because It is one of the surivivng smallest calibre in the enclosed turret with multiple level platforms which was one-time aboard the ship (German ship). As it is the smallest, It will have less components compared to other big turrets meaning less blueprints to look for.

 

[Magiaconatus]

Found this drawing on another forum:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/download/file.php?id=41948&mode=view

View attachment 709261

File comment: The commentary says this was drawn at the behest of the US from Herr Hennig in 1945.

Very interesting. It doesn't seem to agree in terms of protection here and there with Breyer, I think.

Could you link the forum thread it was posted?

 

[Magiaconatus]

Scharnhorst: front 140mm; sides and rear 60mm, roof 30-50mm

A little correction on that:

 

[alexi]

Improvised triple 20.3cm/60 on Petropavlovsk (ex-Lutzow), i wonder if there are more pics with better angles and very curious how they work.

It will save tremendous amount of time for everybody.
I really hope to see that list soon.

Am very sorry, what i mean is, is my personal txt list and there are some scans, documents i find have taken as grain of salts (i put them as unknown, probably?, possibly? like that) as long i have them in orders i wouldn't get lost during searches, but since you need the scans from 15cm/C.34 turret, i can posts them here.

View attachment RM_24_650.jpgView attachment RM_24_652.jpg

 

[Junef]

A little correction on that:

The plan seems to be from the first-hand reference rather than from the second hand reference like books....etc.
Could you tell me the item or signature number before modifying my post?

Am very sorry, what i mean is, is my personal txt list and there are some scans, documents i find have taken as grain of salts (i put them as unknown, probably?, possibly? like that) as long i have them in orders i wouldn't get lost during searches, but since you need the scans from 15cm/C.34 turret, i can posts them here.

It seems the plans RM_24_644 ~ 652 (excluding 651[15 cm M.P.L]) you've sent me are also digitized in the bundesarchiv.
The plan RM_24_643 is also related to the 15cm/C34 turret containing the description for the following plans.
As they are written in German, I will first try to index them in Excel and find out their uses later.
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RM_24_652, It is a fusebox but I cannot find the place where it belong inside the gun house level after comparing the photo references.
RM_24_650, It is a auxiliary visor which was planned on the Panzerschiff Du.E?. It needs a port on the turret's frontal plate right below the rectangular sight hole on left side of the turret. From my obervation, the visor was not installed in any of the 15cm twin turrets on board the ship. It might be just a proposed plan.
RM_24_643 ~ 649, They seem to be related to a visor (RM_24_650?) showing what gears are affected when handles are rotated.
Except 652, The rest are, in my opinion, just proposed blueprints.
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Method for finding reference images (Fig.1)
1. Go to Google
2. Search the location you want view.
3. Go to Map and follow (Fig.1)
# Images were removed for copyright#

Generally, They provide 360 interior views.
Useful as I was able to see many other interior views of coastal turrets. (or turrets of Iowa, Alabama and NC)

I hope we can dig more.
Again. I appreciate your help!

 

[alexi]

It seems the plans RM_24_644 ~ 652 (excluding 651[15 cm M.P.L]) you've sent me are also digitized in the bundesarchiv.
The plan RM_24_643 is also related to the 15cm/C34 turret containing the description for the following plans.

Those RM 24 scans have been digitalized for quite sometimes, currently there are 771 plans (due to errors, it missing a bunch of digitalized scans of French 38cm/45 barrel) available to views and doesn't seems update as much compare to other RM archives, i'll keep posting here as long they're digitalized.
But overall, these i founded so far are related to 15cm/55 C.34, the rest are flooded with 28.3cm C.28 and C34 turrets.

Useful as I was able to see many other interior views of coastal turrets. (or turrets of Iowa, Alabama and NC)

I used to collects a bunch of photos and pictures of 28.3cm turret interiors, machinery and ammo hoists from Austrått Fort tourists because my curiosity.

 

[Magiaconatus]

The plan seems to be from the first-hand reference rather than from the second hand reference like books....etc.
Could you tell me the item or signature number before modifying my post?

It was a page from RM 20/1913.

 

[Junef]

It was a page from RM 20/1913.

Indeed. p88 shows 70 mm for the back of the turret. modified my post. Thanks!
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Inside the T283 roll of the NARA (USA) archive, There are many microfilm rolls which contain naval manuals.
For the Kriegsmarine, The manuals are located between the range 96 ~ 106.
The roll 104 conatins manuals for the 20.3 cm C/34, 38 cm C/34 and 28 cm C/34 guns.

Vorläufige Beschreibung ==> Primary Description
Vorläufige Übersicht ==> Primary Overview

T283 R104 #1: Vorläufige Beschreibung 20.3 cm Schnellade-Kanone C/34 in 20.3 cm Drehscheiben-Lafette C/34 Mechanische einrichtungen Band Ia, 1938
T283 R104 #2. Vorläufige Übersicht uber die Schmierstellen Und Entluftungsstellen der 28 cm Schnellade-Kanone C/34 in Drehscheiben-Lafette C/28, 1937
T283 R104 #3. Vorläufige Beschreibung 38 cm Schnellade-Kanone C/34 in 38 cm Drehscheiben-Lafette C.34 Mechanische einrichtungen Band Ia, 1939

Fortunately, You can download them from here "https://wwiidigitalarchives.org/t283"
The same documents can be found in RM 6 folder in the bundesarchiv but not digitized.
T283 R104 #1 ==> RM 6/1215
T283 R104 #2 ==> RM 6/1239
T283 R104 #3 ==> RM 6/1240

If someone wants to stduy existed turrets, I highly recommend reading the manuals in RM 6 first before finding blueprints in RM24.

 

[lukasgrul]

Hello I found some blueprints and photos of 55mm Gerat 58.

 

[00-PureEvil-00]

Improvised triple 20.3cm/60 on Petropavlovsk (ex-Lutzow), i wonder if there are more pics with better angles and very curious how they work.

This turret is not from the *ex*-Lützow (aka Petropavlovsk, aka two or three more names), but from Lützow (ex-Deutschland), the first of "pocket battleships". And the guns are, accordingly, 28cm, not 20.3cm. Petropavlovsk never carried the triple turrets in her life, except in rejected post-war completion projects.

KM have any new 17cm gun design in WWII ?

IIRC, it was mentioned somewhere in this thread that 17cm guns of new design were considered by Kriegsmarine. In the end, through, Germans only had Kaiser-era 17cm SK L/40s, used as railroad and coastal guns.
Maybe archives have some projects or estimates for a new 17cm guns, but I don't remember anything like that in this thread, or in Sarcasticat's Google drive.

 

[Tzoli]

This turret is not from the *ex*-Lützow (aka Petropavlovsk, aka two or three more names), but from Lützow (ex-Deutschland), the first of "pocket battleships". And the guns are, accordingly, 28cm, not 20.3cm. Petropavlovsk never carried the triple turrets in her life, except in rejected post-war completion projects.

Care to tell me more about these projects?

 

[00-PureEvil-00]

Care to tell me more about these projects?

I only know one for sure. Project 83K, a post-war proposal to complete Petropavlovsk (by then already renamed  Tallin) as light cruiser, with armament equivalent to that of Project 68bis (Sverdlov-class) cruiser. That is, 4×III 152mm main guns, 6×II 100mm SM-5 DP guns, 6×IV 45mm and 6×IV 25mm AA guns.
Also, I've read that 180mm B-1-Ps (also used on Kirov-class cruisers) were proposed as main armament for it — this version appears in WoWS under the name Tallin. But they were finally rejected, probably due to production reasons (restarting manufacturing of 152mm guns took less time than 180mm ones).

 

[Tzoli]

I see!
Hmm, I know of a plain Project 83 probably from 1941, which is a minimal change to the design, same main guns and heavy AA but likely Soviet Light AA and gun directors.
There is also an OTZ design I have limited data of, same main guns but 12x1 100mm DP-AA and 12x1 37mm 70-K AA guns and a single triple torpedo tube and soviet aircrafts from again 1941 but according to my data the belt armour was increased to whopping 203mm!

Maybe our resident Russian members could provide more info?

 

[lukasgrul]

I found some photos and blueprints of 30mm FLAK M/44 and 30mm FLAK 103 so here they are. I have question about the last picture of FLAK 103 in zwilling mount, if it was even proposed to mount only two of them on quadruple mount.

 

[Tzoli]

Do we have any info on the 48cm cannon (Presumably SK C/42 and likely 45 calibre) intended for the H-42 and H-43?

 

[donnyjie]

Do we have any info on the 48cm cannon (Presumably SK C/42 and likely 45 calibre) intended for the H-42 and H-43?

The only reference I could find is in Erich Groener's Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945 Band 1

 

[alexi]

Erich Groener

I have read that there are some disagreements on 48cm guns, the closet that Krupp actually designed was the 45cm and 50cm gun, none built but they have a data sheet showed twin and triple turret designs, i still haven't found any document related to that sheet yet on invenio (perhaps not yet digitalized).

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

I have read that there are some disagreements on 48cm guns, the closet that Krupp actually designed was the 45cm and 50cm gun, none built but they have a data sheet showed twin and triple turret designs, i still haven't found any document related to that sheet yet on invenio (perhaps not yet digitalized).

I cannot seem to find any mention of a 48cm gun either. Not in RM6, nor in the NavTechEU for H-class, nor in any other source regarding this type with the sole exception of, naturally, Groner. One has to wonder what Groner saw in his archival visits to spur him to write that down.
For now it would appear the 48cm is simply yet another KM cryptid.
@Tzoli

 

[00-PureEvil-00]

the closet that Krupp actually designed was the 45cm and 50cm gun, none built but they have a data sheet showed twin and triple turret designs

The funny thing is, some time ago I've reread this document (it's at the bottom of this thread's first page, if anyone's curious), and... guns' caliber is not stated there. The figures "450 [mm]" and "500 [mm]" are listed as "Vorderwand", i.e., turret front armor, not gun caliber.

Although, these guns' calibers may be close to 45/50cm. If we look at shell weights and muzzle velocities listed in document:
1) The first gun fires 1330 kg shell at 880 mps. According to Navweaps.com, it's rather close to WW1 18-inch guns: US 18"/48 Mark 1 — 1315 kg at 823 mps, British 18"/45 Mark II (1921 version) — 1323 kg at 808 mps, Japanese 460mm/50 from Number 13 BCs — 1360 kg with unknown MV.
So, this one can be 450/457mm piece... or, maybe, a 420mm one with very heavy shell (for comparison — German 406mm ammo weighted 1030 kg).

2) The second gun fires 1825 kg shell at the same 880 mps. Here the only comparable examples are Japanese ones*: 48cm/45 5th Year Type experimental gun — 1550 kg at 800 mps or 1652 kg at 780 mps depending on shell used, and 51cm/45 Type 98 — 1900 ÷ 2000 kg AP and 1858 kg HE shell, MV unknown. Also, we have Wargaming's estimated ballistics for 48cm/45 gun (found here, in Russian only): 1730 kg at 810 mps (not that WG is good source, but it's better than nothing).
So, this one can be something in 48-51cm range. Maybe even the mysterious 48cm from H-42/43, or 50.8cm from H-44.

But this thing above is just my wild speculation. In the end, I think that the 48/50.8cm guns from H-42/43/44-class battleships are NOT related to that document, and were no more than suggestions, like, "hey, let's give our battleship the biggest freaking guns on the Wild West!"

* 53cm/52 Gerät 36 not included in comparison 'cause it's obviously much more powerful: 2200 kg shell at 820 mps.

 

[YourChair]

Do you have any information on German surface ship (and air) anti-submarine weapons? There seems to be little info available online even on the in-service weapons, let alone the projects.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMGER_ASW.php says

Does anyone know anything further about these?

 

[lukasgrul]

I have found blueprint of 530mm SK C/36 L52 AP shell.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

I have found blueprint of 530mm SK C/36 L52 AP shell.

Nice work; well done! This does practically everything to confirm that the caliber of the SK C/36 'g' turret is, indeed, 53cm.

 

[Torsionbar]

1000mm Übergroße Granate？

 

[Torsionbar]

I would translate "Übgs.Gr. Modell" as "Übungsgranate, Modell", meaning a model of a training round. Interesting maybe is the note on the drawing "Maße sind in Vielfachen von D eingetragen" (dimensions are written down as multiples of diameter". So, there are no absolute dimensions on this drawing !

All right, but don't know how much D is

 

[Jemiba]

I assume, this type of training rounds were built for different calibres.

 

[donnyjie]

Nice work; well done! This does practically everything to confirm that the caliber of the SK C/36 'g' turret is, indeed, 53cm.

The SK C/36g turret was dated 1937, and the g/Psgr. L/4,9 shell was dated 1943. Do they match with each other? Or the shell was for the Gerat 36 (L/52) ?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

The SK C/36g turret was dated 1937, and the g/Psgr. L/4,9 shell was dated 1943. Do they match with each other? Or the shell was for the Gerat 36 (L/52) ?

The Gerat 36 is actually, according to NavWeaps, a 1938 design gun. This would account for the differences between the SK C/36g and the finalized design of the gun with a /52-caliber overall length.
As for why this round is dated 1943? It could be an updated version. Alternatively, this AP round could have just been developed at a later date, with only HE in service prior. There is only one 53cm gun ever designed or put "into service" for Germany that I am aware of, so it would only make sense that this 53cm round would be directly connected to the 53cm gun+turret from 1937.
Just my 2c.

 

[alexi]

Here's another c/36g, this one have total length of 28150m, longer than 53cm/52 barrel (27700m) and designed in 1936.

There's also a 28.3cm/L58 (designated as C38) barrel as well, i recalled this was mentioned in Siegfried Breyer book (on the P-class cruiser pages).

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Here's another c/36g, this one have total length of 28150m, longer than 53cm/52 barrel (27700m) and designed in 1936.
View attachment 718594
There's also a 28.3cm/L58 (designated as C38) barrel as well, i recalled this was mentioned in Siegfried Breyer book (on the P-class cruiser pages).

Yes, this is the 28cm-SK L/58 C38 V that Breyer mentions...didn't expect to see a drawing for it, though.

This new 53cm is rather curious. A very early version?

 

[alexi]

Yes it's likely the early version, dated 2.12.1936, i don't know the actual bore diameter, but given the calculations is a proper L/52 barrel, while the c/36g on navweaps caliber is roughly 51.94

Here's the 28.3cm L/58 barrel, supposedly proposed for future P-class series.