And, those propulsion plant mods, and likely more, would be necessary to do the rest of the stuff he talks about. You'll need more electricity and that means--likely-- either more generators or new ones with greater capacity. It also means upgrading what ever 400 Hz system is onboard (there would have been one installed for the last return to service) to service all that new electronics and missile systems.
 
I have a question about the WW2 Iowa carrier conversion plan. Did it include an armoured fight deck a la Midway CVB, or a normal unarmoured one? Also, did it had a single, or double hangar? Same question about the Alaska too.
 
I have a question about the WW2 Iowa carrier conversion plan. Did it include an armoured fight deck a la Midway CVB, or a normal unarmoured one? Also, did it had a single, or double hangar? Same question about the Alaska too.
Not known as these two drawings which survived:
Alaska conversion:
Iowa conversion:

Hanger wise, single one I think the USN went to that line since the Essex class and these proposlas clearly show an Essex look on an Iowa and Alaska hull
 
I can't help but wonder if at least some proposals for Polaris on surface ships were based on an assumption that it could be a theatre weapons system, rather than a purely strategic one.
Given the range of Polaris and Regulus, they were really theater weapons. At least with any accuracy. 500miles/800km range for accuracy.
 
Remember that Polaris wasn't initially seen as a purely strategic weapons system. It was also seen as having a tactical role to reach out and touch targets beyond the range of a carrier task force's aircraft, in the days when nuclear weapons were seen as the solution to all military problems.
Though it could only take out relatively non-mobile and non-hardened targets due to guidance system limitations. That is why it ended up being a primarily countervalue system, though it would have still have had a sub-strategic role due to the ill-advised cancellation of Regulus II.
Regulus was stopped because it took way too long for the submarine to set up and launch, all while on the surface in full view of all patrol aircraft and ships.

Regulus may have been better off as a surface ship weapon.
 
The Alaskas seems to be one of the few aberrations in the USN well oiled large warship building program in WWII. Of course they were started in the first place to face, chase and fight imaginary Japanese super-cruisers.

With 100% hindsight obviously, what would you build in place of those few Alaskas ?
- more Baltimores / Oregon CAs ?
- more battleships?
- or more Essex carriers ?
More Essex-class. The Alaska-class had the same engines, boilers, etc.
 
Are the slipways big enough though? From what i understand the ones where the CBs were built were 840ft long, not enough for an Essex. So it's either more CAs or CVLs.

Should have done the same with the last 2 unfinished Iowas, either 2 Essex or, if it fits and the design is ready in time, not sure, 2 Midways.
 
Yes, and the CONSTITUTION is still in commission. It's not going to show up on the gunline off some beach somewhere either.
Hmm. A sailing ship of all wooden construction and composite missiles…that show up on radar?
 
Yes, and the CONSTITUTION is still in commission. It's not going to show up on the gunline off some beach somewhere either.

All the ships in question have become unfit for active service without the need for any physical alterations. The fundamentals of their design and operational concept have simply become totally outdated. In the unlikely event someone came up with a compelling argument for heavy guns afloat, it'd be more viable to build new ships that meet modern requirements.
Unfit? Unsafe is more like it. You can't even get parts for many of the systems onboard. Much of the electrical system isn't just obsolete, it borders on unsafe to use. Things like motors and pumps require new foundations for mounting them because their current ones are so rotted and tweaked out of plumb there's no other choice. Just the amount of corrosion is an issue.

buffalo-ship.jpg

That's the USS The Sullivans. It sank at the pier due to a single leak in a single compartment. It's about the same age as the Iowa class made from the same materials, to the same standards, and in roughly the same material condition.
 
made from the same materials, to the same standards, and in roughly the same material condition.
Hard disagree here. Same age, yes. But that's about where the similarities end. The WWII era destroyers were slapped together as quickly and cheaply as possible. The hulls were built from a thinner steel, and they were also built much more lightly than any battleship or aircraft carrier. At the time they were built, the battleships were known as "gold platers" because no corners were cut in their construction.

And one huge difference, the Iowas were in commission as late as 1992, with Iowa and Wisconsin remaining in the reserve fleet until 2006. That means they've received a lot more maintenance than a war built destroyer that was decommissioned in 1965, almost 60 years ago, with almost no maintenance performed since.
 
And the Iowas modernized in the 1980's possibly fixing any hull damage they had by that time.
 
And the Iowas modernized in the 1980's possibly fixing any hull damage they had by that time.
Missouri still has the dent in the deck edge she got from a kamikaze in 1945, it was probably identified as "too expensive to fix"
 
Unfit? Unsafe is more like it.
Both are factors.

If they could somehow be made safe to operate (by whose standards? 1945? 2023?) then they'd still be totally useless in modern warfare.

If there was somehow a theatre of operations where a ship from the 1940s could be effective, they'd still fall apart, capsize, or sink in the attempt to get there.
 
Well the last 1940's era USN destroyers were decomissioned by the 1980's by the Mexican, Greek and Turkish navies showing a maximum age for these destroyers were 40 maybe maximum 50 years.
 
Unfit? Unsafe is more like it. You can't even get parts for many of the systems onboard. Much of the electrical system isn't just obsolete, it borders on unsafe to use. Things like motors and pumps require new foundations for mounting them because their current ones are so rotted and tweaked out of plumb there's no other choice. Just the amount of corrosion is an issue.

That's the USS The Sullivans. It sank at the pier due to a single leak in a single compartment. It's about the same age as the Iowa class made from the same materials, to the same standards, and in roughly the same material condition.
AND her watertight doors between compartments were all open, thus allowing the flooding to quickly spread through the ship.

Here is a slightly older USN destroyer USS Murphy DD-603 after an at-sea collision with an oil tanker:
Murphy_01.jpg


The forward third of the ship sank in 265 feet (81 m) of water, taking 36 officers and men with it. The aft two-thirds was kept afloat and was towed into New York Navy Yard for seven months of repairs, which included the replacement of the entire bow.

Here she is before the "oops":
603murphy_01.jpg
 
Here is a slightly older USN destroyer USS Murphy DD-603 after an at-sea collision with an oil tanker:
Crucially, that was in 1943, when the ship was less than a year old. It's not controversial that ships deteriorate with time.
 
AND her watertight doors between compartments were all open, thus allowing the flooding to quickly spread through the ship.

Here is a slightly older USN destroyer USS Murphy DD-603 after an at-sea collision with an oil tanker:
Murphy_01.jpg


The forward third of the ship sank in 265 feet (81 m) of water, taking 36 officers and men with it. The aft two-thirds was kept afloat and was towed into New York Navy Yard for seven months of repairs, which included the replacement of the entire bow.

Here she is before the "oops":
603murphy_01.jpg
New ships, sure. Old ones, not so much. All you need is one non-watertight stuffing tube between two compartments for progressive flooding. Old ships have ones now disused. Watertight hatches may not be due to shifting of the ship's structure over time, and not maintaining the rubber seal correctly. Corrosion may have weakened a bulkhead to the point it cracks instead of holds.

When you have a ship approaching a century old, it's going to happen.

Corrosion Plagues Historic Naval Ship

 
Well the last 1940's era USN destroyers were decomissioned by the 1980's by the Mexican, Greek and Turkish navies showing a maximum age for these destroyers were 40 maybe maximum 50 years.
The Mexican Gearing-class destroyers stayed around until 2002 and 2014.

Taiwan was still operating Gearing-class destroyers as late as 2003-2005.
South Korea was still operating Gearing-class destroyers as late as 2000-2001.
A few other navies kept some going until the 1990s.
 
New ships, sure. Old ones, not so much. All you need is one non-watertight stuffing tube between two compartments for progressive flooding. Old ships have ones now disused. Watertight hatches may not be due to shifting of the ship's structure over time, and not maintaining the rubber seal correctly. Corrosion may have weakened a bulkhead to the point it cracks instead of holds.

When you have a ship approaching a century old, it's going to happen.
And let's remember what actually happened on Iowa: wornout and unsafe systems that weren't repaired due to cost and priorities, poor training and inexperience among the officers in particular, endless maintenance problems, old and dangerous ammunition, and, finally, the explosion in the gun house. The glamour of big guns blinded too many to the shortcomings of these old ships.
 
And let's remember what actually happened on Iowa: wornout and unsafe systems that weren't repaired due to cost and priorities, poor training and inexperience among the officers in particular, endless maintenance problems, old and dangerous ammunition, and, finally, the explosion in the gun house. The glamour of big guns blinded too many to the shortcomings of these old ships.
Explosion in the gun house caused by old and dangerous ammunition, at that.
 
Explosion in the gun house caused by old and dangerous ammunition, at that.
The explosion was due to incompetent naval officers and civilian technical "experts" rebagging the powder using inappropriate materials (the original bags were silk the new ones polyester and prone to static) and adding a 'tare' pouch on each in a manner that allowed the powder in the tare pouch to be compressed sufficiently to ignite it.
This was determined to be the cause by real experts at the Sandia National Laboratories after the accident.
 
The explosion was due to incompetent naval officers and civilian technical "experts" rebagging the powder using inappropriate materials (the original bags were silk the new ones polyester and prone to static) and adding a 'tare' pouch on each in a manner that allowed the powder in the tare pouch to be compressed sufficiently to ignite it.
This was determined to be the cause by real experts at the Sandia National Laboratories after the accident.
Again: dangerous ammunition.
 
Welcome to the Navy. The first time you do something, it's with live booms. No pressure.

Or you never get to do it with live booms at all until real life catches up with you. Either way, it sucks.

The part that steams me about the turret explosion is the venal way they tried to pin it on the one gay guy, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence, just to cover how shitty everything else around the ships was at the time.
 
Or you never get to do it with live booms at all until real life catches up with you. Either way, it sucks.

The part that steams me about the turret explosion is the venal way they tried to pin it on the one gay guy, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence, just to cover how shitty everything else around the ships was at the time.
The guy wasn't even gay, and the surviving crewman involved in that had initially been considered a hero in helping evacuate the magazines. Worse, several crew were in the turret that didn't even belong there. They had been sent there because they didn't make their assigned GQ station. The one that was a real Oh $$!+ case was the adopted son of an admiral...

An excellent read on this:

9780393047141-uk.jpg
 
The guy wasn't even gay, and the surviving crewman involved in that had initially been considered a hero in helping evacuate the magazines. Worse, several crew were in the turret that didn't even belong there. They had been sent there because they didn't make their assigned GQ station. The one that was a real Oh $$!+ case was the adopted son of an admiral...
See also the blame game for the Bonhomme Richard fire, where they tried to pin it on a guy who failed out of SEAL school and was supposedly bitter about it. Admittedly, most "BUDS duds" have a terrible attitude.

Except that the dude was NOT bitter about it, he was busting his ass trying to get into better shape to try again.
 
See also the blame game for the Bonhomme Richard fire, where they tried to pin it on a guy who failed out of SEAL school and was supposedly bitter about it. Admittedly, most "BUDS duds" have a terrible attitude.

Except that the dude was NOT bitter about it, he was busting his ass trying to get into better shape to try again.
And the second round of the investigation is finally looking at the guy that was originally suspected... but who had been crossed off the list because he had finished his enlistment shortly after the fire and was now a civilian.
 
And the second round of the investigation is finally looking at the guy that was originally suspected... but who had been crossed off the list because he had finished his enlistment shortly after the fire and was now a civilian.
About time, though I still think it was likely an accidental fire that ended up destroying the ship due to shipyard incompetence. Watertight doors blocked from being closed, shipboard fire main basically nonfunctional with no firefighting equipment staged to replace it...

Little point in setting a fire on the ship you hate if you're going to be leaving it shortly.
 
About time, though I still think it was likely an accidental fire that ended up destroying the ship due to shipyard incompetence. Watertight doors blocked from being closed, shipboard fire main basically nonfunctional with no firefighting equipment staged to replace it...

Little point in setting a fire on the ship you hate if you're going to be leaving it shortly.

It was that coupled with a crew that was almost entirely incapable of fighting the fire in its early stages.
 
It was that coupled with a crew that was almost entirely incapable of fighting the fire in its early stages.
I was afraid that was part of it. My sub made a port visit to San Diego one patrol, we tied up at Point Loma across the pier from USS Coronado. While we were there, the Coronado ran a fire drill. It took them 20 minutes to get the fire out. It was in a wastebasket.

My sub was preparing for ORSE, we had the first hose team on the fire in under 4 minutes, repeatedly, Fire Out in under 15min. I think our best was 3:50 for the hose team and Fire Out in 12:30. (Roughly 10 minutes of fighting the fire with hoses to get to Fire Out)
 
The guy wasn't even gay, and the surviving crewman involved in that had initially been considered a hero in helping evacuate the magazines. Worse, several crew were in the turret that didn't even belong there.

An excellent read on this:

9780393047141-uk.jpg
I think Everhart…who did blueprints of the Star Trek Enterprise…was one of the casualties?
 
Is it possible to replace the Iowa's and Alaska's 5-inch / 38-caliber twin mounts with the more modern 5-inch / 54-caliber Mark 45 single-gun turret? I have seen various online conceptual drawings of actual Iowa class modernization proposals with 54-caliber single-gun turrets. I believe Tzoli on DeviantArt has also posted artwork of Iowa class modernization concepts which depicts the Mark 42 or Mark 45 turrets replacing the existing older twin mounts.
Well, it should be... possible... but...

The 5" Mk 45 is a completely different system. You'd have to install all new fire controls, all new radars, all new directors, cut down not just the turret mounting but the magazine below it and install a completely new one to handle the ammunition and such.

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As you can see, it requires two decks depth for the system.

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Then there's differing power communications and environmental requirements that have to be met. So, yes, it is possible, but it would be very expensive to accomplish.
 
Is it possible to replace the Iowa's and Alaska's 5-inch / 38-caliber twin mounts with the more modern 5-inch / 54-caliber Mark 45 single-gun turret? I have seen various online conceptual drawings of actual Iowa class modernization proposals with 54-caliber single-gun turrets. I believe Tzoli on DeviantArt has also posted artwork of Iowa class modernization concepts which depicts the Mark 42 or Mark 45 turrets replacing the existing older twin mounts.
Mark 42 would have been a lot easier.
 
Is it possible to replace the Iowa's and Alaska's 5-inch / 38-caliber twin mounts with the more modern 5-inch / 54-caliber Mark 45 single-gun turret? I have seen various online conceptual drawings of actual Iowa class modernization proposals with 54-caliber single-gun turrets. I believe Tzoli on DeviantArt has also posted artwork of Iowa class modernization concepts which depicts the Mark 42 or Mark 45 turrets replacing the existing older twin mounts.
No it was not me. I did seen some drawings of the New Jersey BBV conversions with such modern guns including the 8" guns, but I only put 5" Mark 16 single ones as described:

The Gene Anderson type modernisation featured both 5" and 8" guns:
 
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