France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS / SCAF / FSAC)

[mrmalaya]

The cockpit and perhaps the nose...?

 

[FighterJock]

The cockpit and perhaps the nose...?

From certain angles the nose on this new design look's a lot like the Rafael's nose. Are Dassault's engineer's getting too conservative in designing new fighters and sticking to what they already know?

 

[galgot]

The cockpit and perhaps the nose...?

From certain angles the nose on this new design look's a lot like the Rafael's nose. Are Dassault's engineer's getting too conservative in designing new fighters and sticking to what they already know?

Rafael is a Israeli defence company. Nothing to do with a French conservative aircraft manufacturer.
Oh yes...Conservatives, they are already very much in a way ;D

 

[mrmalaya]

Well not to want to second guess the situation, but the battles I have with older auto-correct when I type Rafale (Rafael), or Taranis (Tarnish), might explain that post.

 

[FighterJock]

Sorry about the slight mix up, it was my auto spell checker to blame for that error. :-[

 

[Archibald]

George Walker Bush famously become "Le buisson marcheur de George" that is "George's walking bush" thanks to an extremely stpid autocorrect software (bangs head against a wall)

Are Dassault's engineer's getting too conservative in designing new fighters and sticking to what they already know?

this is a little silly. "If it works, don't change it". Dassault has a long standing tradition like this. It worked pretty well for the company since 1949 and the first Ouragan. In fact all 5000 combat jets they build can be linked to each others, all the way from Ouragan to Rafale, including Mirage, Mystère, and Etendard. By 1956 the SMB-2, Mirage III-01 and Etendard IV-A were the same basic fuselage, only with different wings or air intakes. The rear fuselage with the Atar inside was essentially the same.

So yes, they are conservative, but for good reasons

 

[Deltafan]

I got it as a hot tip from a French Journalist on KeyPublishing forum.

Thanks

I searched yesterday on Keypublishing but I did not find anything.

I searched today after your answer and I found the post of halloweene. Do you know from what journal he is ?

 

[TomcatViP]

So yes, they are conservative, but for good reasons

Not so much when you have a product life spanning 3 to 4 decades. Initially, that is acceptabłe but after it is no more.

I have specific example in mind if you push me.

Airframe design time will be drastically down. It is of the utmost importance that any design leader should keep that in mind.

 

[litzj]

To me, their design is not pure high-end fighter

they have more focus on stealth, ISR, cruise, commanding of UCAV or other asset

rather than conventional dog-fight or missile-truck BVR missions.

 

[galgot]

For sure I wouldn't expect them to design a pure high-end fighter only.
All this is dictated by the money you can put in it. France and Germany are not going to finance a specialized F-22 or J-20 class/size fighter, which I even doubt would be very useful if they could.
Suppose they are aiming at a compromise capable of doing multiples things, like Rafale is.
Configuration wise, i'm glad not to see another F-35ish clone like some Chinese, Korean, turkish or japanese projects.
Stealth shaping tend to make them all look the same tho... :/

 

[mrmalaya]

I certainly wouldn't expect any European/British/Swedish ( yes I know they are all European in one sense) aircraft to look like a LM product.

 

[Jemiba]

First attempt for a provisional 3-view, clues and corrections welcome.
For those of you, who want to change the drawing by themselves, the
svg-file is attached, too.

 

[FighterJock]

First attempt for a provisional 3-view, clues and corrections welcome.
For those of you, who want to change the drawing by themselves, the
svg-file is attached, too, just change the suffix .txt to .svg (svg-files aren't
allowed as attachements).

Looking good so far Jemiba, I notice that you have designed the fighter to have the EOTS as standard. I take it that all future fighters from the 6th generation will have such a system as standard thus removing the need for anymore external targeting pods.

 

[litzj]

First attempt for a provisional 3-view, clues and corrections welcome.
For those of you, who want to change the drawing by themselves, the
svg-file is attached, too, just change the suffix .txt to .svg (svg-files aren't
allowed as attachements).

thx for your effort for this drawing

width of body including inlet seems to be too narrow compared to width of lex and nose

 

[galgot]

Nice Jemiba ! :°
I think the nose edge is a straight line. see.
Also the funny thing , to have less angles difference, that LERX outer edge would logically be paralel to the nose edge...
It's not.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I added SVG as a supported format. Preview doesn't look right however, at least on this one.

 

[Jemiba]

Second attempt:

I think the nose edge is a straight line. see.
Also the funny thing , to have less angles difference, that LERX outer edge would logically be paralel to the nose edge...
It's not.

You're certainly right, changed.
That change additionally widened fuselage and inlets, although only very slightly.

 

[Flyaway]

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/07/europes-combat-aircraft-conundrum-will-uk-partner-with-france-germany/

 

[Deltafan]

First attempt for a provisional 3-view

Second attempt:

Thanks a lot Jemiba. You are the best, once more again

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Thicker lines...

 

[JeffTracy]

Front View

 

[Mike Pryce]

Great efforts at 3 views. Thanks.

 

[TomcatViP]

Great but this model is what Houdini could do best: a stealth blanket only to hide from the press the embarrassing decade of BS from the EU industry ("stealth is dead", "there would be no more wars but with spear handed savages" (well we had the savages for sure), "Drones are only gadgets")...
I call this aircraft the dodge fighter because it allow everyone to look sideway while we are committing the future generation to pay for to an huge load of money at the higher risks ever seen on the market.


If you are skeptical, look at the side wall of the from section that without rudder will induce a divergent beta for very small angles.

This thing has Rafale (=M2k) wings, Rafale stylized faceted front section and no tail without any inherent search for induced stability. As a fun factor it has LEVCoN's and f-23 hype (without any apparent understanding if the usefulness of this aero configuration).

Up to to you to make your own informed opinion....

 

[Deltafan]

Well…

-Very first known drawing of the future MD 550 (picture 1)

-MD 550 in service... (picture 2)

Maybe the final shape will not be like the first picture (trick, BS and press or not)... What a scoop...

-Rafale had bad directions too... (picture 3)

--Dassaut studies the next french fighter since decades, yes, with stealth, yes, and pilot, yes, with almost no money (except for the UAV Ducs and the NEURON), yes... (pictures 4 and 5)


For my own I am interested in the successor of the Rafale since decades... And all that I can find about this, here or elsewhere, is interesting for me. But to know the final shape of the plane, I'll do like everyone : wait and see... And only then I will say what was exact or not, whatever anyone else said/says/will say.

 

[Deltafan]

According to an interview of Mr. Trappier, CEO of Dassault :

Quant au SCAF, M. Trappier a prévenu qu’il n’y avait, pour le moment, aucune « maquette précise et arbitrée », étant donné que les besoins opérationnels et les spécifications sont en cours de définition. « Et même s’il y en avait une, je pense qu’on garderait une certaine confidentialité, puisqu’on a des concurrents, y compris en Europe, du moins en Grande-Bretagne

Translation attempt :

There is, currently, no accurate and arbitrated model of the SCAF, because operational requirements and spécifications are not yet fully defined. And even if, we would keep a certain confidentiality, since we have competitors.

http://www.opex360.com/2018/07/20/pdg-de-dassault-aviation-charrie-britanniques-projet-de-nouvel-avion-de-combat/


Well, I can only say that the original video has been removed from the Dassault Aviation official website...

https://www.dassault-aviation.tv/Wings%20for%20Europe-1636.html

Perhaps :

-Broadcasting of the video was a mistake (and it's too late because we can see it now all around the web and in a lot of medias)

-Broadcasting of the video was a disinformation because the real project is very different of what showed the video...

To be continued...

 

[red admiral]

There is, currently, no accurate and arbitrated model of the SCAF, because operational requirements and spécifications are not yet fully defined.

Well at the moment, neither France nor Germany has actually contracted Dassault or Airbus to work on this so you can judge whether they've made substantial progress from spending IRAD monies over the last year...

Interesting that Dassault went tailless whilst Airbus and BAES have gone with tailed concepts. Cost/risk/benefit trade-off to be had there.

 

[Deltafan]

Well, about this, another french article :

https://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-defense/scaf-va-etre-presente-president-macron-actualise-157095

Translation attempt :

According to our information, a working group will shortly present its "roadmap" to President Macron on the Franco-German SCAF (Future Combat Air System).
This "group", gathering specialists from the General Directorate of Armament (DGA) and various staffs (Armed Forces, Air Force, Navy), is working on a classified secret-defense file. Once this one validated politically, the industrialists will join this team. Then it will be the turn of the Germans, state and industrial. A "steering structure" will be put in place "before the end of the year", which should lead to the ordering of a" demonstrator"

We'll see at the end of the year if this article was right…


Otherwise, for my own, if the plane has Thrust Vector Control, I guess that the experience of MBB with the X-31 could be very helpful…


To be continued...

 

[galgot]

Spend some time studying the few available images as I really like the shape of this thing.
Took the liberty to modify jemiba’s drawing and post the result here.
I think the engines are more widely spaced (not by much) , the wing is something like between a diamond and double-delta with lerx. Also the nose is very much like a bird beak. Added the canopy frames, but don't know if they should be , or if they are just geometry lines (beziers ?) on the CAD images.
Still , I don’t really understand the engines pipes geometry .

 

[galgot]

The inlets ducts goes inward to the center , so i suspect eventual weapon bays to be on fuselage side on these flat faces, after the inlets turns ?
Or in the space between the engines, before these ducts turns ? Also the wings are quite high :

One image shows a very flat underside too :

Even more so that the bottom edge of the space between the engines seems to go down to fit a flat under fuselage surface :

Yes, radome is very small, even by "rafale standard" Wonder if they had the same carrier landing view requirement in mind as the Rafale...
Note also there seems to be "cheek" antennas on the nose sides. So maybe a distributed antennas radar system.

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks for your work galgot

 

[Jemiba]

Great, thank you !
About the canopy frames, I'm not sure, too. If there are frames, it really could be, or at least would
look like a two-seater. But the middle line of the "windshield frame"touches the most forward line.
The F-35 has a frame, the F-22 not ...
But apart from that uncertainty, you're much closer to the "real thing", than me !

 

[Trident]

The F-35 frame is an internal brace supporting the canopy from inside. A similar solution might be intended on this concept.

 

[flateric]

Galgot - regarding boattail design...

 

[galgot]

Indeed , visible there too. That makes the under fuselage very flat.

 

[flateric]

Well, I can only say that the original video has been removed from the Dassault Aviation official website...

My memory may work bad but AFAIR when last time I saw it at Dassault TV site I noticed that it was uploaded on March 2018.
WaybackMachine tricks are not working with site dynamic engine.

 

[Deltafan]

Well, I can only say that the original video has been removed from the Dassault Aviation official website...

My memory may work bad but AFAIR when last time I saw it at Dassault TV site I noticed that it was uploaded on March 2018.
WaybackMachine tricks are not working with site dynamic engine.

Each time (from 04.07.2018) that I saw the video on its page of Dassault's WebTV, the wrote date was : 3 May 2018.

a few days later (after the video began to appear in a lot of websites and medias), the webpage on Dassault's WebTV was still there, but the video was missing.

a few days later again, even the webpage was missing from Dassault's WebTV and the link gave/gives directly the homepage of Dassault Aviation WebTV.


Till today, the older no-Dassault webpage that I found (AsianDefence) with the video gave/gives the date : 3 May 2018 (YouTube : 4 May 2018)



That's all I know... :-\

 

[flateric]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhzBLqXKSCk

 

[TomcatViP]

"Attrition has become a factor"

General Lanata

Also regarding the F-35 operational history that has already began in Israel despite the denial of Mr Noguier of Airbus:

[Chief of Staff Gen. David] Goldfein said he’s spoken with F-35 pilots in Italy and Israel—Israel has already used the F-35 in combat—and “what they’re telling me is, operationally, the airplane is absolutely magnificent.”

A Quote from Def Aerospace (a web site heavily relying on Airbus). It is sad to see that as a strategist, he might have missed this.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/195471/us-air-force-chief-%E2%80%9Ccould-not-be-happier%E2%80%9D-with-f_35.html


Last but not least, It's appreciable how the DGA (represented here by Miss Laurent) is the one expressing the least complacent appreciation of the situation (coupled by the Air force financial realism), notably that of their main vector.

 

[flateric]

Drums!

https://twitter.com/xaviervav/status/1054330106339123203?s=19

 

[galgot]

)
And with a carrier pict behind...