France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS / SCAF / FSAC)

[red admiral]

Probably nothing. It was just a little flame war on a corner of the Internet.

Life moves on

Hopefully we'll have 2 different planes flying to look at soon enough

 

[Archibald]

Life... finds a way (Ian Malcolm)

 

[TomcatViP]

When comparing FCAS Vs GCAP planned entries into service, do not forget the Japan factor. Japan have been running a 5th Gen fighter program well before UK or France were teaming on the FCAS as it was known then.
Japan initially found positive inputs teaming with the UK industry that had a long reliable history developing 5th gen systems (and then with Italy).
That's why GCAP is planned to come earlier, unless something get wrong on the way.

Then, having talks around 2035 or 2045 just like if we were discussing interstellar events is plainly... Ridiculous. There are 10 YEARS b/w the two, with probably a large conflict happening during that interval of time that will see aviation modernizes drastically.

FCAS can not be compared to GCAP. If that is the plan, it's failed one, inherently.

You can see trace of this understanding in the late French military planning speaking of Very High Altitude being dominant.*
[I used the term Hyperstealth (stealth + hypersonic) long ago but it might even only induce flying counter space mission where stealth is not a factor (since orbital assets have to fly... Orbits (at lest partially), you can probably choose often enough favorable airspace where to engage them outside of an enemy IADS).]

So the question remains: why does FCAS have to be extended that far into the fog of future wars?
Inherently that erases the clarity of the message being sent to our allies... But also toward our opponents.

*FCAS is neither advertised or known to be developed for such, even being contradictory with that.

 

[Scott Kenny]

FCAS can not be compared to GCAP. If that is the plan, it's failed one, inherently.

I'm starting to see FCAS versus GCAP as FAXX versus NGAD.

GCAP and NGAD are interceptors/fighters. FCAS and FAXX are strike planes that can shoot down other aircraft.

France needs a Rafale replacement, which means a carrier compatible striker.

Germany doesn't need a striker so much with their F-35s, so may be pushing their requirements more towards a fighter.

 

[Archibald]

I think Spain is an interesting partner if only because of their air force past and present combat jet inventory. Also they are resisting F-35 so far despite their Harriers.

 

[kqcke for you]

Lets

I'm starting to see FCAS versus GCAP as FAXX versus NGAD.

Yeah but there willing to go more risky (for example variable cycle engine) Wish could explain there longer timeline wish is planed with considerations for expected hardships.

GCAP and NGAD are interceptors/fighters. FCAS and FAXX are strike planes that can shoot down other aircraft.

I don't think that in germany there is a larger need for fighter compared to before while even when FCAS comes atleast 40 Eurofighter will still be there and assuming that FCAS will be similiar to Rafale compared to eurofighter then almost nothing on performance is gone. My guess would be increased interrest for larger payloads which are very hard to achieve with FCAS when you have to balance everything. But maybe some form of CFT solution could be designed? One would have to do it from the get go but an CFT equipped non navy fighter (like F-18L) could achieve similiar weights with either more fuel, weapons or both.

France needs a Rafale replacement, which means a carrier compatible striker.

Germany doesn't need a striker so much with their F-35s, so may be pushing their requirements more towards a fighter.

The strike armament for F-35 are very small with only some cruise missiles and bombs being an option for now. We also gotta assume that allways a part of the fleet needs to be in an ready state for a possible strike which reduces the total strike fleet even more.

 

[Archibald]

Another way of putting it: Germany will soon have stealth, 5-gen fighter in the shape of F-35. Spain and France: not so much, they are presently stuck with Typhoon and Rafale. So it is not the same degree of emergency (which brings an interesting question: with France near-term plan being Rafale F5 + Neuron CCA, could Spain be a partner in the said CCA, to help their not-stealth Typhoons ?)

In the end it boils down to : Rafale F5 + CCA versus SCAF, which one is the correct mid-term strategic choice ?

This link provides an honest pros-and-cons.
https://www-opex360-com.translate.g...rancaise/?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr

Sticky point: Rafale F5 while not stealth will have some tricks under its sleeve, see below.

That being said, this "sensor" issue is intriguing. While an aircraft like the F-35 may be "invisible" to some detection means [this is a priori not the case for passive radars and it depends on the frequency bands used], its infrared signature – with its F-135 engine – can betray it. The IR channel of the Rafale's Front Sector Optronics [OSF] would be able to detect it head-on, subject, however, to weather conditions.

Incidentally, the Rafale will soon be equipped with an improved OSF, the General Directorate of Armaments having recently carried out tests on a new optic on the infrared channel of the OSF, this being supposed to improve the "image quality of the Night Identification function".

This development will be accompanied by the integration of Link 16 block 2, the CONTACT software digital radio, as well as the TRAGEDAC systems [which will give the Rafale a passive target location capability through networking of aircraft in the same patrol, editor's note] and CAPOEIRA [for improved connectivity for Rafale developments]. What's more, the development of an anti-radar missile is also underway, as part of the major impact program "Future Air-Surface Armament", which "meets the need for a capability to neutralize short and medium-range surface-to-air threats, an essential prerequisite for the Rafale's first entry capability".

It remains to be seen whether this little bag of tricks plus a fully stealth CCA sidekick drone will be enough to wait until SCAF, into the 2030's.
That's the 800 pound gorilla question.

I want to insist on two important points:

First, Rafale while not 5-gen full stealth and having flown in the late 1980's / early 1990's, still has a lot of growth potential: as shown by the F5 standard.

Second point: Dassault and the Armée de l'Air have a plan, and I think they can be reasonably trusted.
1- Rafale F5 smart tricks against stealth planes
2- The stealth CCA drone sidekick
3- SCAF, with or without Germany, plus Spain.

 

[DWG]

Why bash Dassault

"The French company weighs for only a third in decision making, with Airbus having two-thirds of the vote on behalf of Germany and Spain, Trappier said. That means the lead company on the NGF can’t divvy up the work as it sees fit, the CEO complained."

That's why. It's the same story as when France was part of Eurofighter, Dassault wanted, and now wants, complete dominance on decision making, even where the decision making is properly a political decision. The other partners won't forget that, so why is Trappier demanding complete control? From where I sit it reads as a deliberate attempt to alienate the other partners into quitting the programme so SCAF becomes a Dassault only aircraft, it'll cost them the German and Spanish buys, but he clearly thinks 100% of the French pie, + 100% of export sales, will more than make up for that.

 

[kqcke for you]

Another way of putting it: Germany will soon have stealth, 5-gen fighter in the shape of F-35. Spain and France: not so much, they are presently stuck with Typhoon and Rafale. So it is not the same degree of emergency.

Which brings an interesting question: with France near-term plan being Rafale F5 + Neuron CCA, could Spain be a partner in the said CCA, to help their not-stealth Typhoons ?

Did they say there was a partner? Because i don't think they actualy have any real needs for an stealth fighter anytime soon but this may change with the upcoming possible SU-57s. That said with there TR-4(+) and assuming they upgrade TR-3A at similiar speed to P4E all of them get mutch more strike capabilitys (when they buy them).

In the end it boils down to : Rafale F5 + CCA versus SCAF, which one is the correct mid-term strategic choice ?

This link provides an honest pros-and-cons.
https://www-opex360-com.translate.g...rancaise/?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr

Sticky point: Rafale F5 while not stealth will have some tricks under its sleeve, see below.





It remains to be seen whether this little bag of tricks plus a fully stealth CCA sidekick drone will be enough to wait until SCAF, into the 2030's. That's the 800 pound gorilla question.

Even if its not enough can the 3 (maybe 4) get enough money to accelerate the development?

 

[red admiral]

Second point: Dassault and the Armée de l'Air have a plan, and I think they can be reasonably trusted.

It's one argument, but France also has few other near term options unless they buy F-35 (unlikely being an understatement). Sweden is also in a similar position.

It'll be interesting to see how the global market for "CCA" actually turns out. They still cost money and effort.

 

[kqcke for you]

It's one argument, but France also has few other near term options unless they buy F-35 (unlikely being an understatement). Sweden is also in a similar position.

It'll be interesting to see how the global market for "CCA" actually turns out. They still cost money and effort.

Yeah future CCA or in general more UCAV families could be really potent on the market but its also just as dangerous to share

 

[FighterJock]

Hell would certainly freeze over long before France would buy the F-35 or even the F-47 red admiral.

 

[galgot]

Another way of putting it: Germany will soon have stealth, 5-gen fighter in the shape of F-35. Spain and France: not so much, they are presently stuck with Typhoon and Rafale. So it is not the same degree of emergency (which brings an interesting question: with France near-term plan being Rafale F5 + Neuron CCA, could Spain be a partner in the said CCA, to help their not-stealth Typhoons ?)

In the end it boils down to : Rafale F5 + CCA versus SCAF, which one is the correct mid-term strategic choice ?

This link provides an honest pros-and-cons.
https://www-opex360-com.translate.g...rancaise/?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr

Sticky point: Rafale F5 while not stealth will have some tricks under its sleeve, see below.





It remains to be seen whether this little bag of tricks plus a fully stealth CCA sidekick drone will be enough to wait until SCAF, into the 2030's.
That's the 800 pound gorilla question.

I want to insist on two important points:

First, Rafale while not 5-gen full stealth and having flown in the late 1980's / early 1990's, still has a lot of growth potential: as shown by the F5 standard.

Second point: Dassault and the Armée de l'Air have a plan, and I think they can be reasonably trusted.
1- Rafale F5 smart tricks against stealth planes
2- The stealth CCA drone sidekick
3- SCAF, with or without Germany, plus Spain.

Yet another way to put it: Germany is stuck in buying "5-gen" in the shape of F-35 just to carry these US B-61 nukes, hoping that pleases the US enough to keep these bombs there. Spain and France: not so much, they are presently using Typhoon and Rafale which still have development potential...

And if you think of what they could be facing, say in 10 years, I don't see Ru AF fielding 80 - 100 Su-57 (which we can even question the operational value, they are not even used in the current war) in that time scale given Russian economy now and even after that war.

Completely agree with the other points. Moreover again, with the fast progress in IA and drones nowadays, true unmanned A/A and A/G combat drones could become much more feasible than pouring billions in "6-gen" Stealth Macross super fighters everyone is dreaming of, just to be able to field a squadron of 12.
In Ukraine, cheap slow drones are already doing to work of cruise missiles to struck Ru refineries/airfields, kamikaze drones are used successfully to stop Ru advances in place of artillery on some parts of the front. Drones are regularly shot doing by other drones too... Things are changing .

 

[Ainen]

France wasn't all that far from buying hornets, though.

 

[Archibald]

Very specific (if not desperate) circumstances: by 1987 Crusaders were falling appart with severe attrition; they would not last into the 1990's; while Rafale M was hoped for 1996, best case except it was 2001 in the end.
So the Aéronavale requested 15 second-hand Hornets but Dassault and President Mitterrand blew a fuse and F-8P upgrade happened instead. It was very ugly political manoeuvering.

More generally, France has no problem buying american rather than re-inventing the wheel, see the E-3 AWACS and the Hawkeyes. But indigenous fighter is considering a core strategic capability so no compromise there. Last truly foreign combat jets were NATO / MAP F-100 Super Sabres, retired from Djibouti in 1977.

 

[Ainen]

Yep, but if it isn't replacing all the fleet?
Just a supplementary 1st day of war force, say 24 a/c + spares.

Rafale tries to be everything, but isn't possible to make one aircraft perform all tricks at world level for half a century. Sport careers are shorter for a reason.