flateric said:but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.
red admiral said:flateric said:but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.
Why would anyone be interested in paying Dassault billions of euros for the privilege of having their technology and IP stolen, and destroying their indigenous industrial capability, and having no return on investment. Unless you're desparate/don't have the capability yourself, this isn't a good idea.
Hood said:red admiral said:flateric said:but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.
Why would anyone be interested in paying Dassault billions of euros for the privilege of having their technology and IP stolen, and destroying their indigenous industrial capability, and having no return on investment. Unless you're desparate/don't have the capability yourself, this isn't a good idea.
And lets face it, Anders was happy to let Dassault take the lead because Airbus lacks the experience to lead on this programme. And in the long-term, Anders' plan is a European-wide Airbus Military division. He would love to acquire Dassault under his wing and this programme is the right political tool to convince the governments to sign off on such a deal.
Adding BAE Systems to NGF would be a major complicating factor in that they would demand a sizable production share and doubtless would have their own design opinions, plus we don't know how much of BAE's recent technology advances are covered by the same kind of US export restrictions that have made things difficult for Japan's decision. It also opens up the chance of a Rolls-Royce and MTU bidding war for the engines too.
Of course this is a naval show, but its interesting that Dassault are pushing NGF as a naval fighter. Perhaps its just coincidence that Euronaval is the first big opportunity for Dassault to make a public reveal of NGF, but I wonder whether the Germans would be prepared to accept any design compromises that might arise from designing for naval operations. However, it does show that France is willing to stump up the Euros if they are prepared to develop their own naval version (assuming the export market in 2035 for carrier fighters is still tiny).
Seeing this makes me slightly sad that we didn't go for cats on the Queen Elizabeths, but I guess even if we had, the aircraft of choice would have been the F-35C anyway.
Good question. And maybe "Stealth technology" will be obsolete in 2035...NUSNA_Moebius said:Can Germany and France together even afford it? Few planes = high price = no economy of scale. It doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor unless they commit to bare minimum 300 or 400 airframes.
TomcatViP said:my remark was more to illustrate the buddy carrying concept that might have influenced the choice of a full flat bottom. BUt still, a picture of the UCAS bird displayed that day would be great.
flateric said:That's a rhetoric question. Anyway cooperative effort has more chances than separate ones.
Airbus' Enders constantly promotes all-European cooperation for FCAS to not to split markets for basically the same final product but UK (UK MoD in fact) only interested to be a leader in such a project that will not happen with current France-Germany endeavor where Dassault plays a leading role.
At least this is my understanding.
TomcatViP said:Thank you Flateric. Seems I have been played by the weird contour of it. :-[
Of the 647 million euros left by the government to purchase the F-35, 369 million goes to the development of fighter aircraft of the next generation. That says the spokesperson of Prime Minister Charles Michel (MR).
The government decided Thursday 34 F-35s to buy, accounting for about 4 billion euros. This leaves them 647 million euros under what they first had set. Part of the money that she is saving now goes to a French-German program for the development of a new European fighter plane
Harrier said:Remember the wooing of Belgium over Rafale, once it had become seen as a 'black hole for billions'? They were wise that time.
As the largest and most expensive military program, the F-35 is the subject of much scrutiny and criticism in the U.S. and in other countries.[18] In 2013 and 2014, critics argued that the plane was "plagued with design flaws", with many blaming the procurement process in which Lockheed was allowed "to design, test, and produce the F-35 all at the same time, instead of… [identifying and fixing] defects before firing up its production line".[18] By 2014, the program was "$163 billion over budget [and] seven years behind schedule".[19] Critics also contend that the program's high sunk costs and political momentum make it "too big to kill".[20]
Thanks Sienar, but Harrier gave us these photos some days agosienar said:
Deltafan said:As far as I remember, according to the French Minister of Defense, Belgium could be part of the SCAF program, only if they choose Rafale…
Probably more about this soon...
Otherwise, not everyone can be as cheap as the F-35 :
Harrier said:Remember the wooing of Belgium over Rafale, once it had become seen as a 'black hole for billions'? They were wise that time.
As the largest and most expensive military program, the F-35 is the subject of much scrutiny and criticism in the U.S. and in other countries.[18] In 2013 and 2014, critics argued that the plane was "plagued with design flaws", with many blaming the procurement process in which Lockheed was allowed "to design, test, and produce the F-35 all at the same time, instead of… [identifying and fixing] defects before firing up its production line".[18] By 2014, the program was "$163 billion over budget [and] seven years behind schedule".[19] Critics also contend that the program's high sunk costs and political momentum make it "too big to kill".[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II
See you in 5, 10, 15, 20 and over, to see the satisfaction of Belgium (and others) on the availability and cost of operating the cheap F-35
Maybe, not only 2035, but 2019 is far away :Deltafan said:But 2035 is far away. And a lot of things can change by then, including the existence of this Franco-German project ...
Then, To be continued...
“France has a specific policy about deterrence,” Maj. Gen. Jean-Pascal Breton, the French lead for the Future Combat Air System, told attendees at the International Fighter industry conference in Berlin. “That’s why we don’t want any countries to dictate to us what to do.”
“Don’t trust anyone who says they can make predictions about the characteristics of an air system in 2040,” Funke said at the International Fighter industry conference on Wednesday. That attitude means Germany is expected to wait as long as possible before closing the design phase of the envisioned weapon and moving toward production.
“We need [a] sensible starting point that’s worth spending money on,” Funke told Defense News on the sidelines of the conference. “The time pressure is not as acute as industry presents it.”
"“We need [a] sensible starting point that’s worth spending money on,” Funke told Defense News on the sidelines of the conference. “The time pressure is not as acute as industry presents it.”
From 2040 onwards we will face a massively increased threat level for air assets and these will require new technologies to address them. Even today we see the proliferation of threat systems with the advent of near and potential peer opponents***. It’s therefore vital to have a roadmap for capabilities and the technologies that leverage these.
source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/kratos-more-than-doubles-tactical-uav-development-pr-453659/Kratos has invested about $70-75 million in its tactical drone development programmes, with Hebert saying the vast majority of this sum has been allocated to the Valkyrie. A significant part of the investment has included developing autonomous flight controls, which allow a single operator, on the ground or in another aircraft – such as the pilot of a Lockheed Martin F-35 – to manage the missions of several UAVs at once, says Fendley.
France and Germany have agreed to launch the sixth generation fighter program.
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The French General Directorate of Armaments (DGA) will be the contracting agency for the three contracts
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This agreement was validated Monday in Brussels by the two ministers - Florence Parly and Ursula von der Leyen.
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In this context, the two countries will launch in January (...) a contract of architecture and design of SCAF for a period of two years under a joint leadership Dassault Aviation and Airbus.
Thales will also be on the photo … Dassault Aviation and Airbus will have to make room for the French electronics specialist, who is considered as the European champion of connectivity and system.
In addition, France and Germany have also agreed to sign two contracts for the development of two demonstrators at the Paris Air Show (17-23.06.19) : one on the aircraft, under the leadership of Dassault Aviation, with Airbus as subcontractor, the other on the engine under Safran leadership with the German engine manufacturer MTU as subcontractor. The demonstrator will validate the technological choices in order to have a sixth generation aircraft that will fly in 2035.
(...)
Paris and Berlin will also have to launch studies on sensors, radar and electronic warfare ...
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Spain, which has asked to be an observer, will join the SCAF program once it will be stabilized. By the end of the year, the Spanish will join the high-level agreement (HL Coord), which was signed between France and Germany in April in Berlin. Finally, Madrid is expected to sign a letter of intent in the first quarter to participate in the SCAF program.