FFG(X)

[Scott Kenny]

All of the FFG-62 cells are strike length.
But 4 Tomahawks just isn't enough to have meaningful mass for a strike. More importantly, there appears to be no intention, despite Congressional pressure, to include the Tomahawk Weapon Control System in these ships. It costs a million bucks or so, after all.

If you did want to use a frigate for minor strike, NSM does have a land-attack capability.

If the NSMs have the reach to get there, sure.

Gotta admit that I'm surprised that they're not getting TWCS, either as a standing module or a virtualized thing.

 

[Ainen]

Well that's nice, will see it that program actually works consdering the usn record in the 21st century. Still doesn't really answer my point, wich is that this frigate due to all the changes the navy did is going to cost so much that adding 16 to 32 more cells would be a drop in the bucket compared to say adding a completely unique engine arrangement that by itself forced the ship to be lengthened by 32 feet (to put that in perspective lengthening the burks to hold 128 cells was only 40 feet lol)

Additional cells is never drop in the bucket, unless you want to leave them empty. And there's very little sense in adding more boxes just for the sake of boxes.
Ammo is a significant part of cost of a combat ship, and inflation hits their cost first.

 

[Jimmo952]

Flexibility is inherently good. Tomahawks may not be in the typical loadout but it's good to have the flexibility to fire that class of weapon.

 

[TomS]

If the NSMs have the reach to get there, sure.

Gotta admit that I'm surprised that they're not getting TWCS, either as a standing module or a virtualized thing.

It's possible they could virtualize it, but my understanding is it needs a secure space for data handling.

I could only find a couple of instances where small TLAM strikes (1-4 missiles) have been done, mostly decap strikes in Africa or Yemen. It's a really rare situation and I don't think having the relatively small frigate force unable to play in that is a big capability gap.

 

[Jimmo952]

It's possible they could virtualize it, but my understanding is it needs a secure space for data handling.

I could only find a couple of instances where small TLAM strikes (1-4 missiles) have been done, mostly decap strikes in Africa or Yemen. It's a really rare situation and I don't think having the relatively small frigate force unable to play in that is a big capability gap.

You have to think of the frigate as being part of and contributing to a larger flotilla, not what it can do on its own.

Just like LUSV, MUSV the vision is of distributed, networked operations.

 

[TomS]

You have to think of the frigate as being part of and contributing to a larger flotilla, not what it can do on its own.

Just like LUSV, MUSV the vision is of distributed, networked operations.

Yes, and in such a flotilla, not every ship needs every type of missile. So why obsess about cramming a handful of Tomahawks in a frigate that more urgently needs ASW and AAW missiles?

 

[Jimmo952]

Yes, and in such a flotilla, not every ship needs every type of missile. So why obsess about cramming a handful of Tomahawks in a frigate that more urgently needs ASW and AAW missiles?

Loadout can very depend on the mission/scenario.

The Constellation will have the ability to house a variety of missiles. Which missiles and how many of each can vary depending on the mission.

This is inherently good.

I'm not sure why anyone is arguing over the loadout, other than it is fun.

I think a good argument could be made for more VLS cells but that's not going to happen before a Flight II.

 

[Forest Green]

Competition Opens for Second Constellation-class Shipyard - Naval News

A second shipyard to produce Constellation-class guided missile frigates will eventually allow for production of four ships per year.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Cordy]

Think Navy is very premature in opening competition for a second shipyard when as far as know Navy have as yet not completed the detail design of the frigate or completed the Congress imposed Land-Based Test Program for Engineering Plant of its propulsion system and related machinery control software system at the NSWC Philadelphia Navy Yard that might result in additional changes, so Navy would be unable to supply a full technical data package to other shipyards to price, also would have thought best the need for FMM to build a few ships to iron out production problems which inevitable and take a few years ?

No wonder the Navy weasel words at end of article - Despite the interest by PMS 515, the request for information submitted does not guarantee that a second shipyard will be selected to begin production of the Constellation-class. According to the RFI, “Respondents will not be notified of the results of this notice. The information obtained from submitted responses may be used in development of an acquisition strategy and a future solicitation.”

 

[Maskoki]

Think Navy is very premature in opening competition for a second shipyard when as far as know Navy have as yet not completed the detail design of the frigate or completed the Congress imposed Land-Based Test Program for Engineering Plant of its propulsion system and related machinery control software system at the NSWC Philadelphia Navy Yard that might result in additional changes, so Navy would be unable to supply a full technical data package to other shipyards to price, also would have thought best the need for FMM to build a few ships to iron out production problems which inevitable and take a few years ?

No wonder the Navy weasel words at end of article - Despite the interest by PMS 515, the request for information submitted does not guarantee that a second shipyard will be selected to begin production of the Constellation-class. According to the RFI, “Respondents will not be notified of the results of this notice. The information obtained from submitted responses may be used in development of an acquisition strategy and a future solicitation.”

I wonder if the FFG design is (now) at a stage where the lead time to get another yard running is on the near horizon.

Southern yards seem to have fewer people issues than Marinette and Bath. I wonder if the Navy feels like it isn’t going to get FFGs at an expected pace with just Marinette building them.

Online literature says that the Navy wants 20 FFGs. Temporarily ignoring the cost, I can think of reasons to build 150 FFGs. I feel like too many people think the Cold War isn’t back and worse than before, from a naval perspective. China has way more warships & logistics vessels, plenty of ice-free ports (both domestic and and among its friends), and shipyard potential that would make Soviet admirals (and everyone else) jealous.

150 FFGs = 30 + 72 + 48

10x ARGs = 30x FFGs (3x ARGs at sea = 9x FFGs) [I laugh every time I read about an ARG deploying without escorts - sending 2,200 Marines across the ocean virtually naked - what a slow fat target for Russian or Chinese subs or patrol planes, or long-range drones. 1x FFG per amphib, minimum, in case the amphibs have to split up (like they do all the time today).]

72x FFGs (24x at sea) to ASW/AAW escort all of the slow ships [Including merchants & tankers fleeing & supplying the hot battle area(s)].

48x FFGs (16x at sea) to ASuW & VBSS the far blockade [While the rest of the Navy is fighting the PLA/PLANPLAAF/SRF in the Philippine Sea, who is impounding Chinese container ships & tankers in the rest of the world’s oceans? What if those Chinese merchants are escorted…or armed? Where does everyone think we’re going to get our wartime merchant shipping from…MARAD? Nope, we have no choice but to pirate the Chinese merchant fleet.]

Some may laugh at the proposed numbers. Ask yourself: When WW2 began, what were we short on? Answer: VF squadrons, Tankers, and ESCORTS.

What are we short on today? Answer: Attack subs, logistics ships of all kinds, and…escorts (FFGs).

Once the PLAN finds an SSN design they like, in very short order you’ll be able to walk from San Diego to Shanghai on periscopes without getting wet. Without huge numbers of FFGs to seize merchants and then escort them, we’ll be knocked out of the war in 2 weeks.

To achieve 150 FFGs in 35 years (hoped-for life of an FFG), the US Navy would need to commission 4.3 FFGs/year. My hope is that the Navy is being realistic as to what Marinette can do with its staffing issues, and seeking a second (or third?) yard to permit building at the rate we’re going to need.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I wonder if the FFG design is (now) at a stage where the lead time to get another yard running is on the near horizon.

Not until the Constellation is in the water and in commission, past acceptance sea trials and the post-commissioning shakedown and working with the design a while.

Online literature says that the Navy wants 20 FFGs. Temporarily ignoring the cost, I can think of reasons to build 150 FFGs. I feel like too many people think the Cold War isn’t back and worse than before, from a naval perspective. China has way more warships & logistics vessels, plenty of ice-free ports (both domestic and and among its friends), and shipyard potential that would make Soviet admirals (and everyone else) jealous.

150 FFGs = 30 + 72 + 48

10x ARGs = 30x FFGs (3x ARGs at sea = 9x FFGs) [I laugh every time I read about an ARG deploying without escorts - sending 2,200 Marines across the ocean virtually naked - what a slow fat target for Russian or Chinese subs or patrol planes, or long-range drones. 1x FFG per amphib, minimum, in case the amphibs have to split up (like they do all the time today).]

72x FFGs (24x at sea) to ASW/AAW escort all of the slow ships [Including merchants & tankers fleeing & supplying the hot battle area(s)].

48x FFGs (16x at sea) to ASuW & VBSS the far blockade [While the rest of the Navy is fighting the PLA/PLANPLAAF/SRF in the Philippine Sea, who is impounding Chinese container ships & tankers in the rest of the world’s oceans? What if those Chinese merchants are escorted…or armed? Where does everyone think we’re going to get our wartime merchant shipping from…MARAD? Nope, we have no choice but to pirate the Chinese merchant fleet.]

Some may laugh at the proposed numbers. Ask yourself: When WW2 began, what were we short on? Answer: VF squadrons, Tankers, and ESCORTS.

Modern cargo ships aren't all that slow. The "slow boat from China" is a 4 week delivery time. 1 week to load your cargo container onto a ship, 2 weeks crossing 6000+nmi, and 1 week to unload that cargo container and get your package into the US system. That's averaging 18 knots speed of advance.

Which basically means that submariners are going to hate chasing big merchies. Can't hear a damn thing at 20 knots, and just getting ahead of someone doing 18 knots means you gotta do at least 25 knots for a while. Gain contact, get a rough course estimate, go deep and fast for most of a day, pop back up and hope you guessed right on their course.

 

[Firefinder]

Modern cargo ships aren't all that slow. The "slow boat from China" is a 4 week delivery time. 1 week to load your cargo container onto a ship, 2 weeks crossing 6000+nmi, and 1 week to unload that cargo container and get your package into the US system. That's averaging 18 knots speed of advance.

Oh its worse then that my bubbleheaded friend. If you only knew how much Submariners are going to hate life once the gloves come off.

A modern Container ship only spends a few days at dock, the companies generally try for a 48 hour turnaround at the Slow 3rd rate ports, the big ones can do 24 hours.

Most containers chug along at 24 26 knots, some like the Mearsk B class can hit 34 fully loaded.

Shit move FAST these days.

Albeit thats container haulers, bulk and tankers, generally do 15 ish.


Also for ordering over 100 FFGs one question.

How to crew them? We barely have enough for the ships we got now.

 

[Maskoki]

Oh its worse then that my bubbleheaded friend. If you only knew how much Submariners are going to hate life once the gloves come off.

A modern Container ship only spends a few days at dock, the companies generally try for a 48 hour turnaround at the Slow 3rd rate ports, the big ones can do 24 hours.

Most containers chug along at 24 26 knots, some like the Mearsk B class can hit 34 fully loaded.

Shit move FAST these days.

Albeit thats container haulers, bulk and tankers, generally do 15 ish.


Also for ordering over 100 FFGs one question.

How to crew them? We barely have enough for the ships we got now.

So, if SSNs are suboptimal for merchant interdiction (makes sense), then we need frigates, right? Especially if we want to seize merchants, versus sink them, no?

Crewing all those frigates…could a solution to ‘need more sailors‘ be found in hoped-for updates to our immigration laws (or enforcement of laws we already have)?

And yes, construction, arming, crewing, & fueling would cost a lot more than we have today. Some of that cash, and maybe some of the recruits could lift from a couple Army divisions we need less than we need ships and aircraft…?

 

[TomS]

Think Navy is very premature in opening competition for a second shipyard when as far as know Navy have as yet not completed the detail design of the frigate

This is literally just a "Sources Sought" RFI seeking to identify shipyards that might be interested/capable of being a second production facility. That's a far cry from "opening a competition."

 

[Ainen]

So, if SSNs are suboptimal for merchant interdiction (makes sense), then we need frigates, right? Especially if we want to seize merchants, versus sink them, no?

Like, if SSN will struggle to intercept a merchant, modern frigates usually won't even get a chance. Only a few of them are even 3x capable nowadays.
Either there is an airbase in radius(and it wasn't suppressed or taken by the opponent), or your frigate can get into heli range, or, well, bye.

 

[Josh_TN]

Unescorted civilian traffic is not a challenging target so long as you are not hung up on any single ship. Simply wait for the next one to blunder into you. Mines are ann easy option.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Oh its worse then that my bubbleheaded friend. If you only knew how much Submariners are going to hate life once the gloves come off.

A modern Container ship only spends a few days at dock, the companies generally try for a 48 hour turnaround at the Slow 3rd rate ports, the big ones can do 24 hours.

Most containers chug along at 24 26 knots, some like the Mearsk B class can hit 34 fully loaded.

Shit move FAST these days.

Albeit thats container haulers, bulk and tankers, generally do 15 ish.

Yeah, container haulers and car haulers, well, haul.

Only effective way to intercept those is to know their usual routes and set up where they will have to pass through.

Bulk and tankers are still not pleasant to chase down but are actually able to be chased down.

Also for ordering over 100 FFGs one question.

How to crew them? We barely have enough for the ships we got now.

It's "only" 8-10k more sailors... Plus 100 sets of officers.

 

[Cordy]

The House and Senate over the weekend unveiled a deal for the Fiscal Year 2025 National Defense Authorization Act, applicable to Constellation.

"As for the Constellation-class frigate, the FY 2025 NDAA would fence funding for the program until the Secretary of Defense ensures “that 95 percent of functional design drawings have been approved by the designated technical authority,” according to the joint explanatory statement. The bill authorizes $50 million for the program, slashing most of the $1.17 billion the Navy sought in the budget submission.

“The provision would also require the Comptroller General of the United States to assess the Secretary of Defense’s compliance with the requirements and evaluate the completeness of functional design,” the statement reads.

The move comes after the Navy earlier this year announced that the lead ship in the Constellation-class program could be up to three years late. Service officials at the time cited design maturation issues and workforce challenges as reasons for the potential delay."

USN authorized production start back in August, 2022 and yet here we are two years theee months later and the design is still not even 95% complete - the Far East shipyards will not commence ship build till the design is 100% complete, the last few percent of the design is often the most difficult, so find it not surprising Constellation will be three years late, if not more.

https://news.usni.org/2024/12/09/congress-says-navy-hiding-information-on-sub-pricing-in-new-defense-policy-bill

 

[Cordy]

USNI Dec. 13th

Navy assistant secretary for research, development and acquisition Nickolas Guertin saying design should be mature enough (he is not saying 100%) for the shipbuilder to enter continuous production by May, which clears the way for the Navy to tap a second yard to build more hulls before Connie delivers.

"Speaking at the Naval Institute’s Defense Forum Washington event, Fincantieri Marinette Marine CEO Mark Vandroff said the Navy and the shipyard underestimated the complexity of altering the design.
“With the frigate what you have is the contractor responsible for the functional design but the government has to approve every artifact,” he said.
“Then we wondered, after we set that up, why it took way longer than originally estimated. Because industry didn’t have the capability that we thought we had to do the design. But then on the Navy, they were bottlenecked in bandwidth [to make approvals]."

"Meanwhile, a Government Accountability Report released in May found that the Navy’s design choices have caused “unplanned weight growth” meaning the frigate might not have the margin for necessary modernization over the course of its planned service life."

The GAO report also said Navy disclosed in April 2024 that its considering a reduction in the frigate’s speed requirement as one potential way, among others, to resolve the 10% weight growth affecting the ship’s design and with this the article the first time have seen mention as a 6,700t ship - the original RFP only called for 5% Service Life Allowance for growth.

To be noted the Captain overseeing the Gerald R Ford was fired in 2020 due to delays, whilst PEO Captain Kevin Smith overseeing Constellation with its 3 year delay was promoted to Rear Adm. and now leads the program executive office for unmanned and small combatants and now is disclosing there is a distinction between the functional design and the detail design and saying that 85% functionally is still the same as the nominal parent FREMM but as was previously reported the detail commonality of design dropped from 85% to less than 15% the same.

https://news.usni.org/2024/12/13/navy-constellation-frigate-design-will-be-ready-in-may-second-yard-could-come-in-fy-2027