Eurofighter Typhoon

FighterJock said:
Is this to offset the fact that the GCAP/Tempest won't be ready until sometime in the 2030s? It would make sense for Italy to buy more Typhoons right now to at least keep their air force squadrons ready until GCAP enters service.
Click to expand...
Also this maybe a deal for the turkish export deal to get the needed aircraft so the lane stays open?
 
FighterJock said:
Is this to offset the fact that the GCAP/Tempest won't be ready until sometime in the 2030s? It would make sense for Italy to buy more Typhoons right now to at least keep their air force squadrons ready until GCAP enters service.
Click to expand...

I suspect there are a number of things at play...

-Keeping the Italian production facilities running until GCAP. Buying more Typhoon is cheaper than having a gap...
- Changing security situation
- Air Force taking advantage of more money
- Possible dissatisfaction with F-35 progress, particularly around Block IV capabilities. You can't replace Tornado with an aircraft that has the capabilities of a Tranche 1 Typhoon in terms of weapons...and with Block IV endlessly delayed...
- The Egypt order for 24 has yet to arrive, and might never...
 
timmymagic said:
Keeping the Italian production facilities running until GCAP. Buying more Typhoon is cheaper than having a gap...
Click to expand...
I don't really understand this point as GCAP would be built using different processes in different facilities with different people, and much fewer people due to increased automation, additive manufacturing etc. that's being promoted in the "factory of the future"

I find it difficult to see what will usefully be carried over from Typhoon production

And then money spent on more Typhoons is money that isn't being spent on GCAP development
 
kqcke for you said:
Also this maybe a deal for the turkish export deal to get the needed aircraft so the lane stays open?
Click to expand...

BAE was the lead on Turkey I believe.

red admiral said:
I don't really understand this point as GCAP would be built using different processes in different facilities with different people, and much fewer people due to increased automation, additive manufacturing etc. that's being promoted in the "factory of the future"
Click to expand...

It will be built at Warton. By the apprentices and workers who are there now. But its not just the guys on the shop floor...its the stores, PM's, designers, technical librarians, processes etc etc...the list goes on and on...

Look at the mess that happened with Astute when we had a gap in production....its cheaper to keep the factory turning over at a low level than it is to stop and restart...
 
timmymagic said:
BAE was the lead on Turkey I believe.
Click to expand...
From germany i mean. They try to get the rest to buy more EF (doesn't matter if they already wanted to buy more if it wasn't known) so they don't need to pay so mutch so the lines stay open. After all there also Talks of only some ~20 EF that would be bought.
 
kqcke for you said:
From germany i mean.
Click to expand...

The German line is very secure with Quadriga, EK conversions, possible new build EK's and the c35-50 additional orders that are expeced from the Luftwaffe...and upgrades to the fleet with ECRS.Mk.1, and sub component production for the Spanish orders (and any others that come along). They do have longer to wait for SCAF though...
 
FighterJock said:
Is this to offset the fact that the GCAP/Tempest won't be ready until sometime in the 2030s? It would make sense for Italy to buy more Typhoons right now to at least keep their air force squadrons ready until GCAP enters service.
Click to expand...

Its reducing planned F-35 orders in favour of more Eurofighters. The F-35 were being built in Italy too so it isn't to favour domestic aircraft assembly, but may be favouring Italian aviation parts suppliers as well as helping to fund GCAP technologies early fielding. The other possible explanation is Eurofighter is a more efficient aircraft for routine deterrence patrols/interceptions.
 
I am surprised that Italy is reducing the number of F-35s being bought, is it the F-35A or B order that is being reduced in favour of more Typhoons?
 
They initially signed for 131, 69 F-35As and 62 F-35Bs (22 for the Navy), since then they've been on and off reducing it to 90 orders; 60 F-35A and 30 F-35B (15 for the Navy).

(So 9 A's and 25 B's cut for the Airforce, and 7 B's cut for the Navy).
 
Last edited:
WatcherZero said:
Its reducing planned F-35 orders in favour of more Eurofighters. The F-35 were being built in Italy too so it isn't to favour domestic aircraft assembly, but may be favouring Italian aviation parts suppliers as well as helping to fund GCAP technologies early fielding. The other possible explanation is Eurofighter is a more efficient aircraft for routine deterrence patrols/interceptions.
Click to expand...

I think Cameri looks like its only going to assemble c160 odd F-35 in total. The German order is going to Fort Worth. So far its just the Italian, Swiss and the majority of the Dutch order that are going to Cameri FACO.

Wonder if it was all worthwile?
 
timmymagic said:
I think Cameri looks like its only going to assemble c160 odd F-35 in total. The German order is going to Fort Worth. So far its just the Italian, Swiss and the majority of the Dutch order that are going to Cameri FACO.

Wonder if it was all worthwile?
Click to expand...
I think I've read somewhere that the Poles are interested in switching some of their order to the Italian line for faster delivery.
 
red admiral said:
I don't really understand this point as GCAP would be built using different processes in different facilities with different people, and much fewer people due to increased automation, additive manufacturing etc. that's being promoted in the "factory of the future"

I find it difficult to see what will usefully be carried over from Typhoon production
Click to expand...
Look at Spirit and Boeing's current woes for a good example of what happens when you let your fundamental institutional knowledge evaporate.

Or the UK's L85 rifle, where reputedly no one on the design team had designed a rifle before.

You need people with the experience to say "Hang on, that sounds good, but it doesn't make sense because....", and that means paying to keep them active in the industry until you need them again,
 
Yes, but they wouldn't be Milspec rad-hardened ones. You basically had to completely redevelop a processor to get it up to Milspec standard, which you could only do once its initial design was finalised, so military processors were usually running several generations behind their civilian equivalents.
 
www.flightglobal.com

Technology enhancements to boost Eurofighter sales appeal, BAE says

BAE Systems is moving into a busy few months of flight-testing involving numerous enhancements for the Eurofighter Typhoon, as it also continues to eye further export opportunities for the type.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com

  • 40 of RAF Tranche 3A Typhoons to receive ECRS Mk.2 and Striker II
  • new unified mission computer with 200 times the computing power compared to current Eurofighter mission computer system being developed under LTE initiative.
  • activities at BAE cocnerning Eurofighter production ensured until 2031 with confirmed orders
  • This probably points toward Samlesbury facility where the front fuselage is being manufactured. Warton final assembly facility is nearly done with their order for Qatar
 
Hello, I wonder, if the IRST System PIRATE will be updated for the customers (RAF, ItAF, SpAF etc., but not Luftwaffe and Austrian Bundesheer), or will these customers use a modern targeting pod instead? Has anyone got any unclassified information or a recent news article?
Thanks in advance for a short reply, even if my question was already answered in this topic or in another subforum here at SPF before. :)
 
As a purpose-designed air-to-air sensor, PIRATE is likely to outperform even the latest targeting pods in this regard. They are probably unable to match its range (LWIR sensor instead of imaging-optimized MWIR) or track-while-scan performance (not sure if pods even have an automatic detection capability or rely on the pilot to identify targets in the raw sensor picture).

IRST =/= FLIR!
 
Last edited:
Trident said:
As a purpose-designed air-to-air sensor, PIRATE is likely to outperform even the latest targeting pods in this regard. They are probably unable to match its range (LWIR sensor instead of imaging-optimized MWIR) or track-while-scan performance (not sure if pods even have an automatic detection capability or rely on the pilot to identify targets in the raw sensor picture).

IRST =/= FLIR!
Click to expand...
Do you also include IRSTs of 5th or 4.75th (Kf-21) gens in your claim?
 
snne said:
Do you also include IRSTs of 5th or 4.75th (Kf-21) gens in your claim?
Click to expand...
Remember that the F35 has both the DAS and a separate EOTS. DAS is broadly comparable to IRST, while the EOTS is literally a Sniper pod that's been built in.
 
I think some very large fines are in order and maybe some jail time too. Requirement to register all drone users within a certain radius.
 
Last edited:
Forest Green said:
Requirement to register all drone users within a certain radius.
Click to expand...
People have cars, the necessary radius is certainly 'Germany' and possibly 'the EU'. Not sure about Germany, but UK laws are if it has a camera, or is over 250g, then you need to register annually. How good conformance is is questionable, but it does give the CAA something* to hit rogue operators with without needing to prove they've done something particular.

* A £1000 fine.
 
DWG said:
People have cars, the necessary radius is certainly 'Germany' and possibly 'the EU'. Not sure about Germany, but UK laws are if it has a camera, or is over 250g, then you need to register annually. How good conformance is is questionable, but it does give the CAA something* to hit rogue operators with without needing to prove they've done something particular.

* A £1000 fine.
Click to expand...

According COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING REGULATION (EU) 2019/947 in the EU every user of drones with more than 250gr has to do an online exam, to register him self online and to add his registration number on the drone.

Implementing regulation - 2019/947 - EN - EUR-Lex

eur-lex.europa.eu eur-lex.europa.eu

Perhaps Germany has implemented this more strictly with a registration number on fireproof sign.
schilder-schreiber.de

Drohnen-Plakette mit EU Registrierungsnummer | Drohnen Gesetze 2020

Drohnen-Plakette mit EU Registrierungsnummer aus eloxiertem Aluminium ✓ Drohnen-Plakette / Drohnen-Kennzeichen nach EU Gesetzen 2020 ✓ Europa Drohnen-Kennzeichen / Drohnen-Plakette ✓ gratis Plakette zur Markierung der zugehörigen Fernsteuerung ✓ kostenloser Versand in 24h ✓ Drohnen-Plakette mit...
schilder-schreiber.de schilder-schreiber.de
 
So time to update the list....again....

Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon

Ordered or 'due to be...' - On contract in Bold
38 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
20 x Typhoon to Germany under 'Project Quadriga 2'?
15 x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered. However, these are upgrades of existing airframes*
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+).
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Still not ordered, has gone quiet.....will Israel/Palestine/Yemen etc force the issue? Might move to potential in future as no news recently....
Total - 127 Typhoon * Typhoon EK added in for completeness, but not in the Total as the initial 15 will be conversions of existing aircraft.

Potential Orders...in order of probability...
24 x Typhoon to Italy - Was rumoured, and denied, by credible sources...but has now been confirmed by Airbus CEO
30 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4/5/LTE? to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Reduced to 30 from 50 due to 'Quadriga 2', expected in next budget cycle. But...'next budget cycle' could mean more F-35 or nothing...
48-72 x Typhoon to Saudi Arabia - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. 48 is more likely..
15 x Typhoon EK to Germany - Second batch of new build EK
25 x Typhoon to Spain - Potential up to another 25 under a 'Project Halcon III', bumped up the list as rumours from Spain recently have significantly downplayed F-35....perhaps only a small number of F-35B will be ordered if at all.
12 x Typhoon to Qatar - Qatar have an option on an additional 12 a/c from their current contract
24 - 48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Keeps popping up, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' Or 48..
24 x Typhoon to Poland - Poland appears to want more fighters and Eurofighter have been pitching it heavily...normally you'd assume F-35 would be in the lead, but the Poles don't seem averse to multiple platforms in any domain and they may want cover in case the US gets Trump again...
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese, KF-21 likely frontrunner after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, however that is mired in the usual corruption allegations...
Total - 214-274 x Typhoon

Rumours...old and new - Exceptionally Low to Zero Probability

24 x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - With the news of RAF reducing all their T1's to parts this can be ditched...
Typhoon to Serbia - was a very, very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments and Serbian Government under Vucic. With Rafale sold now not credible
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a exceptionally distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).

A Question...still outstanding
The RAF is ''Reduce to Produce'ing' all of its Tranche 1 Typhoon. What happens to the Spanish and German Tranche 1's when replaced by Quadriga and Halcon? And the Austrian and Italian Tranche 1's when withdrawn? There could be c100 low mileage (less than half lifetime airframe hours) Typhoon Tranche 1 on the market over the next 6 years, all with some upgrade potential....I've advocated sending them to Ukraine for free, be interesting to see what the users do....will they scrap for parts like RAF? Or sell on? Or gift?

Another Question....
Airbus are now pushing for UK involvement in new orders (and who can blame them, but it serves them in multiple ways as well...), and there will be a new Government in the next month....BAE are very quiet however, clearly not wanting to in anyway distract from GCAP (whilst Airbus would very much like to...). Will BAE have enough going on to bridge the production gap until GCAP? Would getting T2's ECRS help? What happens if Saudi's order never arrives? Does UK Gov step in with an order (like I suspect Italy are doing..). Or is component manufacture for others Typhoons, Typhoon upgrades and F-35 sufficient...?

Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 c200 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reach 240 higher than that with a following wind. Any more than that would be a massive bonus....and a big surprise (it certainly won't hit 401 like Ordered and Potential Orders tally to above, but if it got to 240 that would be incredible).
 
Last edited:
Mexico could be a potential landing spot for the Spanish Tranche 1s. They have a huge need for a twin-engine, air-defense fighter to replace the F-5s and can live with the Tranche 1 reduced capabilities.
 
Desertfox said:
Mexico could be a potential landing spot for the Spanish Tranche 1s. They have a huge need for a twin-engine, air-defense fighter to replace the F-5s and can live with the Tranche 1 reduced capabilities.
Click to expand...

Really? What threat is Mexico facing that requires a high-performance air-defense fighter, even an aging one? The only even vaguely neighboring country with a similar capability (aside from the US) is Cuba, and it definitely not threatening Mexico. The US capacity is such that if it did decide to attack Mexico by air, a small Eurofighter force would hardly be a speed bump.
 
TomS said:
Really? What threat is Mexico facing that requires a high-performance air-defense fighter, even an aging one? The only even vaguely neighboring country with a similar capability (aside from the US) is Cuba, and it definitely not threatening Mexico. The US capacity is such that if it did decide to attack Mexico by air, a small Eurofighter force would hardly be a speed bump.
Click to expand...

I'd agree. A weaponised T-7 (so-called F-7) or F/A-50 would make far more sense to replace F-5.

I've said it for an age but Tranche 1 should end up in Ukraine for a whole host of sensible reasons...
 
The Mexican Navy tried to buy Su-27s back in 2006. There is a need a for a high-performance fighter than can catch and force down business jets. While I agree the F/T-7A makes sense (as does the F/A-50) the Typhoon might be cheaper, available much sooner, and is twin-engined.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom