FighterJock
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Nice find Sea_Vixen, is there anymore information about the design?
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Eurofighter Typhoon
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Nice find Sea_Vixen, is there anymore information about the design?
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Some European defense major are not immune to waging censorship, even flooding some search key words with replicated contents, or deleting linked contents from their pages.
I would not interpret the lack of doublons as a sign. And by the way, I had seen this picture before. Probably on Keypub.
I would not interpret the lack of doublons as a sign. And by the way, I had seen this picture before. Probably on Keypub.
So my memory did serve me right, though I was wrong about the exact timeframe (it was decided by September of 2013 to go with a Korean design. I've thought those discussions dragged on till 2014~15 period.)
I can't believe that this was almost a decade ago now. I still remember how Korean forums fought till death about the different approaches to the KF-X program; some forums did literally die from those heated "debates". As chaotic as it was, it was also a very fun period to be an aviation/military enthusiast, with all those wild proposals from different manufacturers. Lockheed's was the most boring out of all. EADS and Eurojet promised some unbelievable offers out of desperation, although no one actually believed them.
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Scorpion82
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Some thoughts and comments about the various topics discussed above.
1.) T3 production ends with Block 50M standard aircraft for Qatar. Tranche 4 is Block 60 and any future customer will get aircraft baselined on it. In other words no more T3.
2.) Concerning export prospects and future orders, we'll see. I think that the "definitely 160" figure is quite optimistic. Is it theoretically achieveable? Yes it is, but I have some doubts that it's "certain".
3.) People should get beyond EJ230 and EJ270. We'll certainly see enhanced versions of the EJ200. To what extend is the question here. EJ230/270 were concepts two decades ago or so, it shouldn't be relied upon as being still "current".
4.) XG40 was just an engine tech demonstrator from R&R. It laid down foundations for the EJ200, but it wasn't an EJ200. Keep in mind that at that time in the 80s, aircraft mass, size and engine thrust were undecided. The UK requirement called for a 11-12t fighter with a reheat thrust in the 9.4-11t thrust range per engine, with reheat. Other nations had different and what we see today is a compromise.
5.) Don't be fooled to believe the 9.75t empty weight figure was still relevant and current by the time JOUST was performed. Higher AoA limits certainly were.
1.) T3 production ends with Block 50M standard aircraft for Qatar. Tranche 4 is Block 60 and any future customer will get aircraft baselined on it. In other words no more T3.
2.) Concerning export prospects and future orders, we'll see. I think that the "definitely 160" figure is quite optimistic. Is it theoretically achieveable? Yes it is, but I have some doubts that it's "certain".
3.) People should get beyond EJ230 and EJ270. We'll certainly see enhanced versions of the EJ200. To what extend is the question here. EJ230/270 were concepts two decades ago or so, it shouldn't be relied upon as being still "current".
4.) XG40 was just an engine tech demonstrator from R&R. It laid down foundations for the EJ200, but it wasn't an EJ200. Keep in mind that at that time in the 80s, aircraft mass, size and engine thrust were undecided. The UK requirement called for a 11-12t fighter with a reheat thrust in the 9.4-11t thrust range per engine, with reheat. Other nations had different and what we see today is a compromise.
5.) Don't be fooled to believe the 9.75t empty weight figure was still relevant and current by the time JOUST was performed. Higher AoA limits certainly were.
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F-2
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Agile thinking
While the design emphasis was on air-to-air combat - both beyond and within visual range - the result is a capable multirole machine Acceleration is described as "tremendous" and agility is claimed to exceed that of today's best fighters, but pilots say the Typhoon is easy to fly. ...
www.flightglobal.com
Autonomous operator
The fuel system is among Typhoon's technological innovationsEurofighter says it "pushed technology on several fronts" to package the required capability in an aircraft as small as the Typhoon. The task was made more challenging by customer demands that the Eurofighter be capable of autonomous...
www.flightglobal.com
Raising the tempo
The Eurofighter EF2000 programme is about to enter what may prove to be its most critical phase, with funding and workshare again presenting the stumbling blocks. Despite this, however, the project remains robust in many areas. The four Governments involved in the project need, by the end of ...
www.flightglobal.com
The extra weight seems to have come later on in the late 90s and AoA override was available
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Scorpion82
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It's a myth that the aircraft suddenly became 1.25t heavier because of "AG" requirements. These were always part of the design and requirements. G-override was considered, but not implemented. AoA at best during earlier trials with a lower nominal limit and a somewhat higher authority with override. It was not the type of AoA override as on a Mig-29 or Su-27 where the limiters are effectively disabled. Typhoon is too unstable for this. A basically stable 29 or relaxed stability 27 are a different story compared to this.
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Upgrade and retention of Tranche 1 Eurofighters ‘technically feasible', BAE Systems tells UK Parliament
There is no technical reason why the UK Royal Air Force (RAF) could not upgrade and retain its fleet of Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft, BAE Systems told...
www.janes.com
isayyo2
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Excellent news, especially with 60% of their airframe fatigue remaining.
I believe Spain was investigating a similar path for their early models?
FighterJock
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About time too, it was a bit stupid of the RAF to suggest that it would scrap the Tranche 1 Typhoons without upgrading them, but it now seems that they have had a change of heart. I suspect that they will get the full upgrade path to the Tranche 4 variant.
F-2
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I was sort of bewildered why they wanted to ditch them so badly. I know they had less computing power and such but they where available right now.
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MoD Memo: "Feasible but costs wonga so sell em' off."
The Tranche 1s were meant to be providing a realistic Red Air aggressor capability and potentially boosting the Northern QRA at the same time.
Sounds more like a BAE pitch "give us some work" than anything the MOD has actually asked for. The cynic might ask if the RAF has enough fighter pilots for any more Typhoons anyway.
The Tranche 1s were meant to be providing a realistic Red Air aggressor capability and potentially boosting the Northern QRA at the same time.
Sounds more like a BAE pitch "give us some work" than anything the MOD has actually asked for. The cynic might ask if the RAF has enough fighter pilots for any more Typhoons anyway.
Scorpion82
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Upgrading T1 A/C to a T2/3 equivalent standards is technically feasible, at least to a certain extend. It's expensive though and some structural changes introduced for new built T2/3 A/C aren't retrofitable. The GAF in fact performed such a feasibility study in the 2015-2017 timeframe and eventually opted for the acquisition of new build aircraft under project Quadriga. As a side note the project name Quadriga was originally chosen to reflect "4 Tranche 4 aircraft, at P4E standard in 2024". Of these three "fours" only Tranche 4 is left and even here there seems to be a certain reluctance to spell out Tranche 4 for some reasons.
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Increasingly looks like the additional 25 Typhoon under 'Halcon 2' will be going ahead...Airbus are saying that they'll do the deal in the next few months...google translate available on below article. 17 Tranche 1 upgrades underway as well. Airbus are describing this as an 'additional order'.
There will be 2 programmes called 'Substitute aircraft for the C15M(F18)' and 'Substitute aircraft for the AV8B and C15M second phase' (really trips off the tongue doesn't it...) to replace the remaining 60 x F-18M and 12 x AV-8B+ (this excludes the oldest EF-18 replaced by Typhoon under Project Halcon). Presumably the 25 x additional Typhoon will be for the first of these, with the way clear for F-35 to win the second (as it must if the Spanish Navy is to retain fixed wing capability on the Juan Carlos I). The variant/s of F-35 and the numbers will be interesting, it appears that Airbus is angling for more than 25 Typhoon ordered and is bigging up jobs and money in the economy...as you'd expect of course. It might be that Spain goes for a mixed buy of F-35A and B, perhaps for 30+ in total.
All we need now is for the German's and Egyptians to sign on the dotted line and it will be over 160 new build Typhoon...now if only BAE could land the Saudi's....
Airbus espera cerrar con España un nuevo pedido de al menos 25 Eurofighter "en los próximos meses"
“Estamos confiados en que España haga ese pedido adicional en los próximos meses”, aseguró el responsable de Finanzas y Contratos de Aviones Militares de Airbus, Jesús de Miguel, durante la ...
Scorpion82
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Well, if you count in the 58 T4 on order for Germany and Spain already we could get:
58 on order
25 Halcon 2
15 Eurofighter EK (Germany)
24 aircraft Egypt
Makes 122 and includes aircraft already ordered. We'll see whether there is room for more or not. Italy was suppesedly considering new A/C as well, Qatar holds an option for another 12. Turkey's 48 aircraft and Saudiarabia's 48 2nd Batch look morebquestionable to me. Additional orders from Germany and Spain remain to be seen. As I said, it's not impossible, but it's anything but certain.
Airbus Tries to Head Off Spanish F-35 Order with Hyperbolic Jobs Claim
PARIS --- Airbus Defence and Space has launched a major lobbying effort to convince the Spanish government to order an additional batch of at least 25...
www.defense-aerospace.com
FighterJock
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I thought that the Spanish F-35 order was to replace the F/A-18 Hornet? And that the numbers of Typhoons would increase with the purchase of the Tranche 5. Strange.
Eventually maybe (given Spain is planning to keep some of their Hornets until 2037). For now though I think the focus is more towards the AV-8B replacement. That said, it obviously has Airbus worried...especially after Germany also ordered some F-35s.
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Sorry guys I actually made a typo...its 38 Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga...so the total Ordered or 'Due to Be' is a little healthier...now stands at 122....
Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon
Ordered or 'due to be...' - On contract in Bold
38 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Not ordered yet but must be close
15+ x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered.
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+).
Total - 122+ Typhoon, including new EK variant
Potential Orders...in order of probability...
50 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German one off budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though...
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet.. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. Large Saudi delegation recently at Warton as well...
25 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - Potential for another 25 under a 'Project Halcon III', probably won't happen though, more likely F-35.
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese, KF-21 likely frontrunner after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, however that is mired in the usual corruption allegations...
Total - 135-171 x Typhoon (assumed all new Turkish production and 50 to Germany)
Rumours...old and new
20+ x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - Ex-RAF aircraft. Can't see it myself, but still rate it higher than Turkey.
24-48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Probably cobblers, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' Or 48 Tranche 3A.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a exceptionally distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).
Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reach 240 with a following wind. Any more than that would be a massive bonus....and a big surprise.
Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon
Ordered or 'due to be...' - On contract in Bold
38 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Not ordered yet but must be close
15+ x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered.
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+).
Total - 122+ Typhoon, including new EK variant
Potential Orders...in order of probability...
50 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German one off budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though...
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet.. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. Large Saudi delegation recently at Warton as well...
25 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - Potential for another 25 under a 'Project Halcon III', probably won't happen though, more likely F-35.
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese, KF-21 likely frontrunner after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, however that is mired in the usual corruption allegations...
Total - 135-171 x Typhoon (assumed all new Turkish production and 50 to Germany)
Rumours...old and new
20+ x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - Ex-RAF aircraft. Can't see it myself, but still rate it higher than Turkey.
24-48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Probably cobblers, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' Or 48 Tranche 3A.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a exceptionally distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).
Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reach 240 with a following wind. Any more than that would be a massive bonus....and a big surprise.
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No order yet. But it appears to be nailed on, particularly the F-35B part. But....it might not be as extensive as some think. It could be just the AV-8B+ that are replaced...Apparently the Air Force want some F-35A as well though. With 72 aircraft to replace, and seemingly 25 Typhoon replacing some of them, there is the potential for the remaining 47 aircraft to be a part buy of F-35's and more Typhoon...I've no idea if the intention is to replace one for one though...
I think Airbus accepts that there will be some F-35 ordered at the very least to replace AV-8B+, but the fact they're bullish about an additional 25 aircraft on top of the 20 in Halcon means they'll be fairly happy. Realistically the best they could expect is another 15 at most...with F-35 variants taking up 30 slots.
But does it make much sense to replace Hornets with Typhoon? What is the delta in increased capacity? 1% 2%... When massive capabilities that fits 21st century battlefields are available for less money with the F-35 Lightning.
And, obviously, I am not mentioning the decrease in maneuverability from Hornet to Typhoon.
And, obviously, I am not mentioning the decrease in maneuverability from Hornet to Typhoon.
Ainen
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Upgraded Typhoons (they're talking new builts in new configurations) are perfectly relevant for 21st-century battlefields.
Typhoon fights at speeds and altitudes that combat-loaded Hornet can't even touch. Relative advantages in BFMs in this sense are of secondary importance - both can do WVR well enough - and that's good enough.
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I think you need to revise your view of Typhoon....its dramatically more than that...
Spain is also not a partner in F-35. So any industrial benefits are near zero for them. Any spend on F-35 is straight out of their Treasury and overseas...For Typhoon it is a vastly different proposition, with the added benefit that they keep their facilities busy until SCAF arrives.
There's an interview somewhere online of a USN exchange pilot from Superhornet to RAF Typhoon. He basically said that unless the Typhoon came down really low and slow, which it never would, that in every circumstance it was game over after the first turn...if he couldn't get his nose on immediately he would lose. Superhornet (and Hornet) is well known for bleeding away energy like crazy and struggling to regain it, meanwhile Typhoon has such an excess of thrust that it can increase speed in turns either horizontal or vertical...At altitude and speed the difference was almost comical...
And numbers.
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The fact its operational tends to count for it....quite a bit...
Scorpion82
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You should realise that Tranche 3 production will finish with Block 50M for Qatar. Next one is Block 60 under Tranche 4 for Germany and any subsequent customer ordering new aircraft will get airframes baselined on it. Apart from the fact that "Tranches" are first and foremost plain orders for a defined number of aircraft and engines, the capabilities aren't driven by the Tranches itself, albeit each aircraft produced is build i.a.w. a defined configuration, that has a particular capability package attached. This is in constant move however as aircraft get continuously updated.
Ainen
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If we're talking newly updated variant - it simply brings an operationally-relevant air superiority fighter.
Su-57 will be significantly ahead - that's an obvious airframe advantage. That doesn't make typhoon irrelevant.
It is this way now, where both fighters are part of the overall context (air superiority system). It will be even more so by 2030s, when even fighter itself becomes a system.
Ffs, right now su-35s(r-37m)/a-50u can't make cold war mig-29s irrelevant(and in fact probably significantly lose on buck for buck basis), despite literal ~zero fighting chances in such engagement. Because - context.
Ainen
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Arjen's reply above + f-35 doesn't exactly match typhoon mission profile.
Su-57 is a different case, because it provides more or less direct overmatch to good typhoon qualities ... and a good Typhoon upgrade still can mitigate a lot of it.
F-35 doesn't - it's a fundamentally different aircraft, with a different set of priorities.
It won't fly/intercept as fast and as high as Typhoon, it won't launch like Typhoon, it won't carry as much as Typhoon, it won't have EW potential* of the Typhoon.
*up to theoretical debate.
it won't use wast majority of European weapons, because buy American.
Surely Spain will buy F-35B and F-35A, it will be known as Halcon Phase II. There are an aproved presupuestary chapter with 6.4 billion Euros for it.
-F-35B will replace Harrier II on the Armada.
-F-35A will replace last batches of F-18s from Península.
Total around 35-45 units.
Same for Germany.
Ainen
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Germany buys nuclear-capable strike fighter(tornado replacement).
F-35 is a such an ideal candidate here, that it's frankly impressive how European politics managed to delay the obvious for so long.
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The German government placed an order for 38 Tranche 4 Typhoons in November 2020.
German Parliament commits to acquisition of 38 Eurofighter jets
The German Parliament has announced its commitment for the acquisition of 38 new Eurofighter jets for the country’s air force.
www.airforce-technology.com
If I understand correctly, the German F-35 order of March 2022 was for the express purpose of acquiring nuclear-capable strike aircraft. As noted by @Ainen.
At the time of the F-35 decision, an additional order was placed for 15 ECR/SEAD Typhoons.
Germany to buy 35 Lockheed F-35 fighter jets from U.S. amid Ukraine crisis
Germany will buy 35 U.S. F-35 fighter jets to replace its ageing Tornado, it said on Monday, announcing a first big defence deal since Chancellor Olaf Scholz pledged a 100-billion-euro upgrade to the military in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
It seems the German government still perceives Typhoons as useful aircraft.
Scorpion82
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There has been no order for additional aircraft from Germany beyond the 38 T4 aircraft! Such a contract needs yet tobe signed.
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So why bother with Rafale in 2023 when F-35 are available with far higher capabilities at a much lower price?
The answer of course to both questions if of course the same - industrial and political.
To be truthful we haven't yet really seen what the F-35 can or can't do in a live environment.
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