FighterJock
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 29 October 2007
- Messages
- 5,020
- Reaction score
- 4,886
Nice find Sea_Vixen, is there anymore information about the design?
Last edited by a moderator:
Nice find Sea_Vixen, is there anymore information about the design?
So my memory did serve me right, though I was wrong about the exact timeframe (it was decided by September of 2013 to go with a Korean design. I've thought those discussions dragged on till 2014~15 period.)EADS official AFAIK.I found an interesting image in an old folder of my computer. However I don't remember how and where I got this.
View attachment 692331
Is that something official or fan art?
A picture taken at a seminar 10 years ago shows the plan view of this concept (see "EADS")
View attachment 692426.
Some thoughts and comments about the various topics discussed above.
1.) T3 production ends with Block 50M standard aircraft for Qatar. Tranche 4 is Block 60 and any future customer will get aircraft baselined on it. In other words no more T3.
2.) Concerning export prospects and future orders, we'll see. I think that the "definitely 160" figure is quite optimistic. Is it theoretically achieveable? Yes it is, but I have some doubts that it's "certain".
3.) People should get beyond EJ230 and EJ270. We'll certainly see enhanced versions of the EJ200. To what extend is the question here. EJ230/270 were concepts two decades ago or so, it shouldn't be relied upon as being still "current".
4.) XG40 was just an engine tech demonstrator from R&R. It laid down foundations for the EJ200, but it wasn't an EJ200. Keep in mind that at that time in the 80s, aircraft mass, size and engine thrust were undecided. The UK requirement called for a 11-12t fighter with a reheat thrust in the 9.4-11t thrust range per engine, with reheat. Other nations had different and what we see today is a compromise.
5.) Don't be fooled to believe the 9.75t empty weight figure was still relevant and current by the time JOUST was performed. Higher AoA limits certainly were.
Some thoughts and comments about the various topics discussed above.
The extra weight seems to have come later on in the late 90s and AoA override was available
Excellent news, especially with 60% of their airframe fatigue remaining.Upgrade and retention of Tranche 1 Eurofighters ‘technically feasible', BAE Systems tells UK Parliament
There is no technical reason why the UK Royal Air Force (RAF) could not upgrade and retain its fleet of Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft, BAE Systems told...www.janes.com
Upgrade and retention of Tranche 1 Eurofighters ‘technically feasible', BAE Systems tells UK Parliament
There is no technical reason why the UK Royal Air Force (RAF) could not upgrade and retain its fleet of Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft, BAE Systems told...www.janes.com
I was sort of bewildered why they wanted to ditch them so badly. I know they had less computing power and such but they where available right now.Upgrade and retention of Tranche 1 Eurofighters ‘technically feasible', BAE Systems tells UK Parliament
There is no technical reason why the UK Royal Air Force (RAF) could not upgrade and retain its fleet of Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft, BAE Systems told...www.janes.com
Posted this elsewhere as a summary of the current production and order books and potential orders for Typhoon...
Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon
Ordered or 'due to be...' - On contract in Bold
28 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Not ordered yet but must be close
15+ x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered.
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
Total - 87+ Typhoon, including new EK variant
Potential Orders...in order of probability...
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+). Close to putting this in the 'due to be' list...
50 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German one off budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though...
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet.. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. Large Saudi delegation recently at Warton as well...
25 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - Potential for another 25 under a 'Project Halcon 4', probably won't happen though, more likely F-35.
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese, KF-21 likely frontrunner after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, however that is mired in the usual corruption allegations...
Total - 160-196 x Typhoon (assumed all new Turkish production and 50 to Germany)
Rumours...old and new
20+ x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - Ex-RAF aircraft. Can't see it myself, but still rate it higher than Turkey.
24-48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Probably cobblers, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' Or 48 Tranche 3A.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a exceptionally distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).
Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reach 240 with a following wind. Any more than that would be a massive bonus....and a big surprise.
All we need now is for the German's and Egyptians to sign on the dotted line and it will be over 160 new build Typhoon...now if only BAE could land the Saudi's....
Eventually maybe (given Spain is planning to keep some of their Hornets until 2037). For now though I think the focus is more towards the AV-8B replacement. That said, it obviously has Airbus worried...especially after Germany also ordered some F-35s.I thought that the Spanish F-35 order was to replace the F/A-18 Hornet?
I thought that the Spanish F-35 order was to replace the F/A-18 Hornet? And that the numbers of Typhoons would increase with the purchase of the Tranche 5. Strange.
I think Airbus accepts that there will be some F-35 ordered at the very least to replace AV-8B+, but the fact they're bullish about an additional 25 aircraft on top of the 20 in Halcon means they'll be fairly happy. Realistically the best they could expect is another 15 at most...with F-35 variants taking up 30 slots.That said, it obviously has Airbus worried...especially after Germany also ordered some F-35s.
Upgraded Typhoons (they're talking new builts in new configurations) are perfectly relevant for 21st-century battlefields.But does it make much sense to replace Hornets with Typhoon? What is the delta in increased capacity? 1% 2%... When massive capabilities that fits 21st century battlefields are available for less money with the F-35 Lightning.
And, obviously, I am not mentioning the decrease in maneuverability from Hornet to Typhoon.
I think you need to revise your view of Typhoon....its dramatically more than that...What is the delta in increased capacity? 1% 2%...
And, obviously, I am not mentioning the decrease in maneuverability from Hornet to Typhoon.
Electronics. Meteor.
The fact its operational tends to count for it....quite a bit...But against the Su-57, what does the Typhoon bring. Serviceability?
Sorry guys I actually made a typo...its 38 Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga...so the total Ordered or 'Due to Be' is a little healthier...now stands at 122....
Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon
Ordered or 'due to be...' - On contract in Bold
38 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Not ordered yet but must be close
15+ x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered.
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+).
Total - 122+ Typhoon, including new EK variant
Potential Orders...in order of probability...
50 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German one off budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though...
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet.. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. Large Saudi delegation recently at Warton as well...
25 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - Potential for another 25 under a 'Project Halcon 4', probably won't happen though, more likely F-35.
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese, KF-21 likely frontrunner after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, however that is mired in the usual corruption allegations...
Total - 135-171 x Typhoon (assumed all new Turkish production and 50 to Germany)
Rumours...old and new
20+ x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - Ex-RAF aircraft. Can't see it myself, but still rate it higher than Turkey.
24-48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Probably cobblers, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' Or 48 Tranche 3A.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a exceptionally distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).
Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reach 240 with a following wind. Any more than that would be a massive bonus....and a big surprise.
If we're talking newly updated variant - it simply brings an operationally-relevant air superiority fighter.That sounds great If Spain was to invade Canada... But against the Su-57, what does the Typhoon bring. Serviceability?
Arjen's reply above + f-35 doesn't exactly match typhoon mission profile.But why bother with Typhoon in 2023 when F-35 are available with far higher capabilities at a much lower price.
Imagine the 1980 Spanish Airforce buying more Phantoms instead of Hornets...
But why bother with Typhoon in 2023 when F-35 are available with far higher capabilities at a much lower price?
Imagine the 1980 Spanish Airforce buying more Phantoms instead of Hornets...
Spain is not a partner in F-35 production.
Spain is a partner in Typhoon production.
Germany buys nuclear-capable strike fighter(tornado replacement).Spain is not a partner in F-35 production.
Spain is a partner in Typhoon production.
Same for Germany.
The German government placed an order for 38 Tranche 4 Typhoons in November 2020.Spain is not a partner in F-35 production.
Spain is a partner in Typhoon production.
Same for Germany.
It seems the German government still perceives Typhoons as useful aircraft.Berlin will also purchase 15 Eurofighter jets equipped for electronic warfare, a capability yet to be developed by Franco-German producer Airbus (AIR.PA), according to a confidential document sent to lawmakers to inform them of government plans.
So why bother with Rafale in 2023 when F-35 are available with far higher capabilities at a much lower price?But why bother with Typhoon in 2023 when F-35 are available with far higher capabilities at a much lower price?